Arabian Nights

[S.A.M.]

I bet they banned the Satanic Verses because they thought it would bring violence. Am I right? Personally I never finished the book. It bored me. It wasn't the material as much as the way it was written. I wouldn't be hunting down any other novels by Rushdie any time soon.

Rushdie bored me right from Midnights Children, which was serialised in Eve's Weekly back in the 80s. The ban on the Satanic Verses preceded all the other hoopla on it, including the fatwa. I don't think anyone would have rioted over it, but who knows?

The link says that pornography is banned. Does that ever slip into erotic fiction? I mean how would they consider 'Lolita' for example?

It means that pornography is not sold openly. Lolita is literature. So is Fanny Hill for that matter.

Oh have you ever read 'Reading Lolita in Tehran' by Azar Nafisi? Its non fiction and WONDERFUL. I highly recommend it. Its a teacher of literature who held private classes where she covered material not deemed worthy by the State censors. They read Pride and Prejudice, Lolita, The Great Gatsby, One Thousand and One Nights and a few others. Its about the reactions from her male and female students and covers everything from the critical arguments they had over the material, life in Tehran etc. I think you would appreciate it. It really revolves around how literature touches our lives, not just for students in Tehran but everywhere. I found something quite universal about what she had done though I guess doing something like that in Tehran had its own political or religious complications.

Its on one of my TBR mountains - I read more non-fiction these days so I will get around to it. Most people are the same everywhere and perhaps making books forbidden is probably one way to immortalise them.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

What's a TBR mountain?

I don't think anyone would have payed attention to Rushdie or his novel if it wasn't for the whole death threat thing. The only reason why I even bothered to pick up the book in the first place was because of the controversy.

I still have to compile that list of other old erotic tales I said I would post for you. I will try and do so tomorrow but will send them via pm if I can't find the thread.

Lolita is literature but so is Lady Chatterly and Henry Miller novels but there are those who still classify them as pornographic. :shrug: Personally I find porn boring. Erotica is interesting because it is often linked to a great number of other subjects. The States doesn't put out good erotica, its written by the worst writers whereas in Europe it was only the best writers who attempted Erotica. There is one for example by George Sand which is quite good. Will make sure it gets on the list I will post for you.

I am still baffled as to why sex is frowned upon but gratuitous violence gets off scot free.

 

[S.A.M.]

TBR mountain = To Be Read mountain

Yeah I find porn boring too, as well as extreme erotica. Reducing sex to its mechanics is as interesting as standing on the road watching the rickshaw puller making it with the domestic next door.

In my survey of the romance genre I did come across some very blatant porn masquerading as erotica [e.g. Shiloh Walkers Voyeur] which if you've ever been on one of those all night sex marathons, you'd know is too painful to contemplate in reality. I rather prefer romance of the ilk of Pamela Morsi, like Courting Hattie for instance, which gives you an insight into a different time and place and lifestyle. As for erotica it should be suggestive, there is so much more to be said for the subtle seduction than the blatant eroticism [not to say the latter doesn't have its moments - I remember a rather interesting discussion with a girlfriend on the different types of female orgasms and what to do about men you like who cannot make you come]

I haven't read Lolita or Lady Chatterley so I could not comment on those. I thought Les Liaisons dangereuses was erotic though not overtly so. I'd have to say I've yet to find a book where sex and romance was effectively combined to produce the sense of eroticism that one can experience in reality.

Come to think of it, has anyone banned books in the erotica romance genre? These books are far more ubiquitous than Lolita.

I am still baffled as to why sex is frowned upon but gratuitous violence gets off scot free.

In the opening chapter of Arabian nights the king comes across his wife screwing some guy and chops both of them down. While the infielity receives a lot of attention, the fact that he just killed his wife is so irrelevant as to not even merit a second thought. In fact the rest of chapter deals with his convictions that women will be unfaithful whenever possible and he immediately departs for his brothers palace where he confirms his theory when he finds his brothers harem involved in an indiscriminate orgy. Most of the "when men were Men" books of the time have an abundance of such gratuitous violence where rape and murder and even torture is treated as normal but where sexual appetite assumes gargantuan proportions.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Sam: Come to think of it, has anyone banned books in the erotica romance genre? These books are far more ubiquitous than Lolita.

Well it depends on how you view erotica. Lady Chatterly is erotic in its own old fashioned 'english' way. I didn't find de Laclos 'Les Liaisons dangereuse' to be erotic at all, I would have described the eroticism as mere seduction and intrigue, if there is anything erotic its the element of power. Have you explored the variety of titles I had given you before in that eroticism thread? They are similar to what you describe in Arabian Nights in the sense that they are examining other themes such as the impotence and restrictions of the bourgeois as in Chatterly or the psychological desire to become void as in The Story of O, the relationship dynamic between men and women in a society where one is less than equal like in Venus in Furs. The sexuality is simply an expression or vehicle to explore these other ideas or rather these other ideas are expressed in our sexuality.

From what you describe Arabian Nights partly revolves around tempering female sexuality that is deemed feral. As I read through your description I thought of female circumcision as a means of controlling these feral instincts (as deemed by a patriarchal society would have it). Or the insistence of modesty in Victorian society where women were not supposed to enjoy sex at all or be labeled 'wicked'.

Lolita is the confession of a pedophile where after he has manipulated a young woman he comes to understand the nature of the crime, namely ruining her innocence when it was her innocence that attracted him to begin with. It also reveals the young girl as someone who is becoming aware of herself as a sexual object, as having this power over a man and testing this power. Erotic literature is said to be written to intentionally arouse the reader but I believe that there is more to it than that, I think erotic literature is meant to intentionally force the reader into awareness and identifying their arousal of the taboo. Just look at how little erotica is written concerning the monogamous married couple for example or the monogamous young lovebirds who only have eyes for each other; these are relegated to romance not erotica. Erotica needs to embrace blatant sexuality or it becomes something else, something other than. Its meant to re-activate the parts of our psyche that we either suppress or censor or are afraid to explore beneath all the civility.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Ok Sam here are some of the others. I will leave them here as I can't be bothered to look for the old thread and I'm sure these would be considered just as ban worthy as the Arabian Nights so not too off topic:

For some reason I cannot find the book by George Sand so of course I am driven crazy with the very idea that its out there some where in a box or worse growing mildew in my mother's garage. Anway...

Henry and June by Anais Nin.

The Diary of a Chambermaid by Octave Mirbeau

The Pearl. This is particularly interesting. The Pearl was a monthly journal that appeared in London, 1879. Its a compilation of the kind of erotic tales told during the age of Victoria. There are confessional letters sent from sinful ladies, lewd stories, scandalous gossip. In short its a rollicking good time and all the material falls under the banner of 'erotica'. Good for historical insight.

Irene by 'Albert de Routisie (pseudonym for Albert Camus)


The Tale of Genji by Lady Murasaki. Lady Murasaki (A.D 978-1026) I believe to be Japan's first female author. Its a novel in six parts written during the time of Japans imperial court. Its a major work and chronicles court adventures particularly court dalliance elegant and decadent as it was. Its rare piece of literature from a woman of that era. *and of course quite subtle*

Les Libertines by Adolphe Belot

Ma Mere by George Bataille (deviously subtle and devastating!) You could probably write a dissertation on the pathos in this little gem.

 

[nirakar]

I think erotic literature is meant to intentionally force the reader into awareness and identifying their arousal of the taboo. Just look at how little erotica is written concerning the monogamous married couple for example or the monogamous young lovebirds who only have eyes for each other; these are relegated to romance not erotica.

Can you have a good story without any tension? Even in a romance story doesn't there have to be some sort of tension, like some obstacle to love that must be overcome?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Can you have a good story without any tension? Even in a romance story doesn't there have to be some sort of tension, like some obstacle to love that must be overcome?

Why do you believe there is no tension in the relationship of a monogamous married couple? Erotica doesn't necessarily deal with love (it hardly ever does) or actual obstacles save the psychological. Ma Mere is a good example of that.

 

[GeoffP]

BBC

Who cares if artistic representation of the Human Form was banned? So what if the world leaders in sculpture lost all knowledge of how to sculpt human beings? Human beings bodies are obscene. Everyone knows that.

Who cares if the Classics are burned and banned?
So what?


Does artistic expression help society? Does it put food on the table? Is artistic expression really all that important? Worshiping Allah is the only thing that is important and the only book Muslims need is the Perfect Qur'an. Banning Arabian Nights will have no effect at all on Good Muslims. All they need to do is read the Qur'an. Memorize the Qur'an. Just keep praying to Allah 5 times a day and stop wasting time with Pornography like Arabian Nights or obscene Human Sculpture.


Everyone knows it's the Qur'an that's made the Islamic nations the Cultural Powerhouses they are today. Envy of the world really.





Ever wonder what happens to societies when you ban art form? Just take a look at the Cultural Revolution. I imagine in a millennium or two, it'll be known as the Great Communist Golden Age that lasted for a big fat whopping 800 years or so. Much greater than those pathetic Greek Golden Years. Or the European Renaissance - try doing that without paper. It's all Chinese for fracks sake.

Heh. Nice one.

 

[GeoffP]

It's amusing how the thread gets paralleled to pornography almost before its nose is out of the gate.

Darn those Arabs for reading porn to their children! But they were able to throw off the Western shackles of immodesty, or modesty, depending on what day it is, and find their own modesty, or immodesty, depending on what thread it is.

Anyway, to get back on point, you'd never want to read the Quran to children. There's all kind of stuff about sex, which a blind man would read aloud to imams, and also boiling people's skins off, and about how women are dumb, which they never knew until schools were established to illustrate why, well before the same could be offered for Western women and without the aid of offensive and titillating sculpture, thank you very much! Which is their right and also offensive and must be banned even though Arabs were better at it, thank you very much!



And so on.

All too funny, frankly.


...Michael, I throw down my gauntlet, sir. Will you pick up my gage?

 

[S.A.M.]

Lucysnow:

Thanks for the list, I've got most of them in ebook format including 3 volumes of the Pearl [haven't actually read any of them yet] except Le Con d'Irène and Ma Mère and the Mirabeau which will probably be harder to find. Also, Albert de Routisie was a pseudonym for Louis Aragon, not Camus.

Speaking of pornographic Arabs, have you read The Perfumed Garden? In keeping with the arbitrariness of such actions, you may not be surprised to hear that no one has got around to banning it yet

Although the chapters read like this

Chapter 1: Concerning Praiseworthy Men
Chapter 2: Concerning Women Who Deserve To Be Praised
Chapter 3: About Men Who Are To Be Held in Contempt
Chapter 4: About Women Who Are To Be Held in Contempt
Chapter 5: Relating to the Act of Generation
Chapter 6: Concerning Everything That Is Favourable to the Act of Coition
Chapter 7: Of Matters Which Are Injurious in the Act of Generation
Chapter 8: The Sundry Names Given to the Sexual Parts of Man
Chapter 9: Sundry Names Given to the Sexual Organs of Women
Chapter 10: Concerning the Organs of Generation of animals
Chapter 11: On the Deceits and Treacheries of Women
Chapter 12: Concerning Sundry Observations Useful to Know for Men and Women
Chapter 13: Concerning the Causes of Enjoyment in the Act of Generation
Chapter 14: Description of the Uterus of Sterile Women, and Treatment of the Same
Chapter 15: Concerning the Causes of Impotence in Men
Chapter 16: Undoing of Aiguillettes (Impotence for a Time)
Chapter 17: Prescriptions for Increasing the Dimensions of Small Members and for Making Them Splendid
Chapter 18: Of Things that Take Away the Bad Smell from the Armpit and Sexual Parts of Women and Contract the Latter
Chapter 19: Instructions with Regard to Pregnancy
Chapter 20: Forming the Conclusion of This Work

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/garden/index.htm

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I just found The Perfumed Garden on Abebooks.com and have ordered it. They describe it as arabic erotica akin to the Karma Sutra. I just love this old stuff! I'm looking forward to reading chapter 11, On the Deceits and Treacheries of Women

 

[S.A.M.]

To really enjoy it, you should get the illustrated version, I think its the one translated by Richard Burton. I like chapter 3.

A bit further east, the Kamasutra is more famous [and yet to be banned] but have you heard of the Ananga-Ranga?

Chapter I
Chapter II: Of The Various Seats Of Passion In Women
Chapter III: Of The Different Kinds Of Men And Women
Chapter IV: Description Of The General Qualities, Characteristics, Temperaments, Etc., Of Women.
Chapter V: Characteristics Of The Women Of Various Lands
Chapter VI: Treating Of Vashikarana
Chapter VII: Of Different Signs In Men And Women
Chapter VIII: Treating Of External Enjoyments
Chapter IX: Treating Of Internal Enjoyments In Its Various Forms
Appendix I: Astrology In Connection With Marriage

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/ar/index.htm

This is all stuff old enough to be relegated to the "classics" like the Arabian nights [more correctly titled the 1001 Nights, or Alf Lail wa Lail] but they are not known well enough to receive the same attention. Even the unedited version of the Arabian Nights is something that has become freely available only in the last few decades, I've seen volumes of it in libraries in small town America.

There's also "The Fountains of Pleasure" and "Night in a Moorish Harem", which you can find easily online.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

To really enjoy it, you should get the illustrated version, I think its the one translated by Richard Burton. A bit further east, the Kamasutra is more famous [and yet to be banned] but have you heard of the Ananga-Ranga?




http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/ar/index.htm

This is all stuff old enough to be relegated to the "classics" like the Arabian nights [more correctly titled the 1001 Nights, or Alf Lail wa Lail] but they are not known well enough to receive the same attention. Even the unedited version of the Arabian Nights is something that has become freely available only in the last few decades, I've seen volumes of it in libraries in small town America.

There's also "The Fountains of Pleasure" and "Night in a Moorish Harem", which you can find easily online.

Yes its described thusly 'Nafzawi, Umar Ibn Muhammad; Burton, Richard Francis'

No. I have not heard of the Ananga Ranga. Thank you for the suggestions Sam, I will look for these fine works. Most of my collection belongs to the Western tradition. I am very curious to the wisdom from these older traditions.

Who would have read these texts back in the day? I mean who was the intended audiences? Also do they have any connection to the oral traditions?

 

[S.A.M.]

They are instructional sex books. People had less hangups about sex before.

Chapter 3 of the Perfumed Garden for instance is a whole gamut of "what not to do in bed"

Know, O My Brother (to whom God be merciful), that a man who is misshapen, of coarse appearance, and whose member is short, thin and flabby, is contemptible in the eyes of women.

Its all aimed at men unfortunately, which goes to show that women have been considered the more passive sexual partner in almost all societies. I would love to read erotica aimed at women.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

They are instructional sex books. People had less hangups about sex before.

Chapter 3 of the Perfumed Garden for instance is a whole gamut of "what not to do in bed"



Its all aimed at men unfortunately, which goes to show that women have been considered the more passive sexual partner in almost all societies. I would love to read erotica aimed at women.

Well you know what, there are many a modern man who could do with some instruction before they climb into bed with a woman! I love the above advice. Today we seem to have demystified sex and so there is a tendency to consider all things 'natural' this is good in many respects but it means that we have shed part of the lore that also made sex interesting and less mechanical. The idea of physical adornment and mental preparation, the art of seduction, use of scents for the room and body, foods conducive to the act etc. All these components are missing or considered unnecessary...well save the French perhaps. There's always the French

 

[nirakar]

I think erotic literature is meant to intentionally force the reader into awareness and identifying their arousal of the taboo. Just look at how little erotica is written concerning the monogamous married couple for example or the monogamous young lovebirds who only have eyes for each other; these are relegated to romance not erotica.

Can you have a good story without any tension? Even in a romance story doesn't there have to be some sort of tension, like some obstacle to love that must be overcome?

Why do you believe there is no tension in the relationship of a monogamous married couple? Erotica doesn't necessarily deal with love (it hardly ever does) or actual obstacles save the psychological. Ma Mere is a good example of that.

I was thinking that even if something is relegated to romance it still needs tension. Erotica relies on taboo for tension but the tension from taboo loses something if the taboo is broken over and over again.

There certainly are tensions of all sorts in the relationships of monogamous married couples. Maybe the erotic or romantic tensions that remain in an established marriage tend to be of more painful less resolvable types that don't usually end well and don't end climatically. Older people in established relationships can do new things. Not everything needs to be exciting but perhaps it should be if you are going to write about it.

Maybe youth culture has me too youth focussed though I am not young. Maybe I just have an innocence fetish. The new relationship seems exciting and the possibilities are unknown while the established relationship seems more predictable and less exciting.

I understand the tension in taboo but part of that is newness. It would be difficult to write a captivating story where nothing new happens to the characters.

I have not read enough of the genres to be qualified to discuss erotica or romance stories. Feel free to ignore me.

 

[S.A.M.]

The new relationship seems exciting and the possibilities are unknown while the established relationship seems more predictable and less exciting.

Is it really about newness? Or about comfort zones? For example, how many women would be interested in reading a love story featuring two guys? Or even reading erotica about two men or watching pornography about two men?

But even back in the days when Greek men had boyfriends, they were reading lesbian erotica.

 

[nirakar]

Comfort zone? Is a love story or pornography about two men out of women's comfort zones or does it just bore them?

Gender stereotyping, men (Greek or not) may not need context. If context and the ability to relate to the characters are needed then something new enough to hold interest but not so new that it can't be related to might be best. If the taboo is too large the story becomes out of the comfort zone. Being on the edge of the comfort zone could be exciting. Being in the middle of the comfort zone is probably too comfortable for stories.

There is a taboo theory about jokes. We laugh at things that make us uncomfortable or that at least are unexpected or things that we can't make sense of.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I was thinking that even if something is relegated to romance it still needs tension. Erotica relies on taboo for tension but the tension from taboo loses something if the taboo is broken over and over again.

Well I think don't think that erotica relies on taboo for tension, the tension comes from featuring a taboo that violates the readers repressed taboos or desires. It plays on the psychological notion that there are some or perhaps many who repress certain sexual impulses because of social, cultural, or religious restrictions. A person who is repulsed but also enticed by a piece of erotic work is the person who most likely doesn't have an issue with the work per se but the fact that it has aroused that which has been carefully relegated by what society has deemed dangerous grounds for exploration. Erotica opens the imagination to those possibilities.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Is it really about newness? Or about comfort zones? For example, how many women would be interested in reading a love story featuring two guys? Or even reading erotica about two men or watching pornography about two men?

But even back in the days when Greek men had boyfriends, they were reading lesbian erotica.

Actually Sam I know some women who are actually attracted to porn featuring two men. There were also many women who were moved by films like Brokeback Mountain which is a love story between two men. Even my mother was moved by that film.