Arab-Israeli 1948 war
- Thread starter Zephyr
- Start date
Hapsburg:
How would you respond to land theft and ethnic cleansing? If a bunch of Chinese immigrants bulldozed your house so that they could establish a 'Chinese-only' state, would you smile and give them fellatio?
Gee. They sort of, ya know, tried to form a Jewish-only state on Palestinian land.
How would you respond to land theft and ethnic cleansing? If a bunch of Chinese immigrants bulldozed your house so that they could establish a 'Chinese-only' state, would you smile and give them fellatio?
Hapsburg:
Frankly, I don't care either way. They are welcome to a homeland (even though I would think it rather absurd), but don't go and establish your homeland on a pre-existing civilization. Imperialism and colonialism are no longer acceptable.
This does not necessarily require the expulsion of the Jews, but merely a transition of power.
A difficult question. Do members of a particular religion need a homeland? Why can't they just integrate into pre-existing civilizations? America, the UK, and Australia are all great places for Jews.
Frankly, I don't care either way. They are welcome to a homeland (even though I would think it rather absurd), but don't go and establish your homeland on a pre-existing civilization. Imperialism and colonialism are no longer acceptable.
I fully support the 'living together in peace' notion. But the Palestinians must govern the country, have right of return, and their land back.
This does not necessarily require the expulsion of the Jews, but merely a transition of power.
You are aware that many Arabs, including the Palestinians, are semitic, right? So if you really claim that I biased against a group, I'm still only favouring one semitic group over another. Ergo, I'm not an anti-semite.
Zephyr:
Not they didn't. 'Integration' is an alien concept to the vast majority of the European Jews, which is why they felt the need for a Jewish homeland. Perhaps if they underwent an attitude change, they wouldn't have felt the need for a homeland to escape from pissed residents of other countries.
Why should a religious group have a homeland ?Hapsburg said:
When do the Palestinians get their homeland back ?
Zephyr, what part of 'vast majority' don't you understand?
I was married to a Palestinian asylum seeker
I have Jewish relatives (maternal grandfather and large extended family)
my palestinian asylum seeker ex was not born in palestine (now Israel) he was born in kuwait, but in Arab culture the nationality passes through the father. So he was born without ANY country, he has all his life had to apply for visa's to be able to live anywhere, including arab countries who aren't any more sympathetic in reality to palestinians than anyone else with the exception of Mr Hussain who did give them citizenship in Iraq. His family are all over the place due to the visa problem, as u can't guarrantee any acceptance anywhere. life really is VERY difficult for them. And these are second generation not first.
Now while being against what israeli's had done to his people (depriving them of anywhere to live and passing this legacy to their children/grandchildren, so on so so on) he is not anti jew, in his religion, their males can marry any of the following: Christian/Jewish or Muslim and any religion of any type is better than none at all. So they are far from intolerant.
Meanhwhile Jews prefer to marry only Jews and believe they are the chosen people.
No, I'm not anti Jew either or pro Arab, just telling it how it is from personal viewpoint my relatives (who I adore) are mainly Jewish.
My ex and his family have no problem with this. ( I dislike my ex immensley by the way so no reason to be defending him other than stating what is true)
His family own £15 million pounds worth of land but live as paupers because they can't sell it as it is on israeli occupied land. If they sell to them, they'll be murdered by fellow palestinians, and they can't sell to palestinians.
Catch 22
I have Jewish relatives (maternal grandfather and large extended family)
my palestinian asylum seeker ex was not born in palestine (now Israel) he was born in kuwait, but in Arab culture the nationality passes through the father. So he was born without ANY country, he has all his life had to apply for visa's to be able to live anywhere, including arab countries who aren't any more sympathetic in reality to palestinians than anyone else with the exception of Mr Hussain who did give them citizenship in Iraq. His family are all over the place due to the visa problem, as u can't guarrantee any acceptance anywhere. life really is VERY difficult for them. And these are second generation not first.
Now while being against what israeli's had done to his people (depriving them of anywhere to live and passing this legacy to their children/grandchildren, so on so so on) he is not anti jew, in his religion, their males can marry any of the following: Christian/Jewish or Muslim and any religion of any type is better than none at all. So they are far from intolerant.
Meanhwhile Jews prefer to marry only Jews and believe they are the chosen people.
No, I'm not anti Jew either or pro Arab, just telling it how it is from personal viewpoint my relatives (who I adore) are mainly Jewish.
My ex and his family have no problem with this. ( I dislike my ex immensley by the way so no reason to be defending him other than stating what is true)
His family own £15 million pounds worth of land but live as paupers because they can't sell it as it is on israeli occupied land. If they sell to them, they'll be murdered by fellow palestinians, and they can't sell to palestinians.
Catch 22
You are welcome, I am ignonant of the history (aside from what I have read here and of course my ex's detailed view of what occurred which actually seems to agree with yours)
Here is a story of how 2nd generation are affected. This individual is my ex's cousin, came here when he was 19 as an asylum seeker, he has been here now 10yrs.
(after 10yrs u get granted citizenship) few months before his 10yrs was up, homeoffice decided they wanted to deport him.
Background to him (higher tax bracket as high earner, valuable contributing member of society, never on benefits)
Question was deport him where? he has no country (again he was born in kuwait and all his family in kuwait) they can't deport him there as Kuwait WILL not accept him.
So where? They decided lebanon. Lebanons rules for this palestinian are as follows: You cannot get a job, you cannot use your own money to start a buisness, you cannot buy a house etc etc etc....he has no family there. despite all this, they wanted (and were quite determined went to court three times while they tried to overturn judges decision to let him stay) to take him away from his home of nearly 10yrs, his fiance, his job, his money and send him to a country he cannot work, cannot be self employed, cannot rely on relatives for fiancial aid, basically to send him to poverty and the streets of Lebanon? What does this now say about us?
Yes we are tolerant, we have the most leniant rules in world, but behind closed doors, what craziness goes on?
In the NHS I was aware of home office wanting to deport mothers (our patients) but keep their children here. Reason they won't allow children to be deported is it puts them at risk (starvation) but they'll force their mothers to leave the country while we forceably keep their kids! Yes this happens!
Crazy crazy world, we are all crazy
Here is a story of how 2nd generation are affected. This individual is my ex's cousin, came here when he was 19 as an asylum seeker, he has been here now 10yrs.
(after 10yrs u get granted citizenship) few months before his 10yrs was up, homeoffice decided they wanted to deport him.
Background to him (higher tax bracket as high earner, valuable contributing member of society, never on benefits)
Question was deport him where? he has no country (again he was born in kuwait and all his family in kuwait) they can't deport him there as Kuwait WILL not accept him.
So where? They decided lebanon. Lebanons rules for this palestinian are as follows: You cannot get a job, you cannot use your own money to start a buisness, you cannot buy a house etc etc etc....he has no family there. despite all this, they wanted (and were quite determined went to court three times while they tried to overturn judges decision to let him stay) to take him away from his home of nearly 10yrs, his fiance, his job, his money and send him to a country he cannot work, cannot be self employed, cannot rely on relatives for fiancial aid, basically to send him to poverty and the streets of Lebanon? What does this now say about us?
Yes we are tolerant, we have the most leniant rules in world, but behind closed doors, what craziness goes on?
In the NHS I was aware of home office wanting to deport mothers (our patients) but keep their children here. Reason they won't allow children to be deported is it puts them at risk (starvation) but they'll force their mothers to leave the country while we forceably keep their kids! Yes this happens!
Crazy crazy world, we are all crazy
Sad thing is, people reading a balanced view might only see those bits that agree with their worldview...
Pro-Palestinian: That they are stateless and can't sell their land is Israel's fault for chasing them out.
Pro-Israeli: That they are stateless is the fault of Kuwaiti bureaucracy and that they can't sell their land is the fault of the Palestinians who would murder them.
Catch-22: they're both right. And by denying this, they're both wrong.
Pro-Palestinian: That they are stateless and can't sell their land is Israel's fault for chasing them out.
Pro-Israeli: That they are stateless is the fault of Kuwaiti bureaucracy and that they can't sell their land is the fault of the Palestinians who would murder them.
Catch-22: they're both right. And by denying this, they're both wrong.
Zephyr said:
exactly right!
Dinosaur said:
Basically both Jews and Palestinians are the autochthonous descendants of Caanites - both groups cohabited in Caanan about 3000 years ago. There is no real genetic differentiation between Palestinians, European Jews and Occidental Jews.
Geoff
mountainhare said:
This is another of those "those damn Jews had the Holocaust coming" arguments, isn't it?
No shocker there. And the existing "attitude" for Jews then was "eyes down on the ground if a muslim walks by" AKA "dhimmitude" AKA "societal oppression" or "cultural slavery". I've already illustrated with the help of Diamond (many thanks) why this was an immensely unfair system, but you expect them to just accept it? Why?
Geoff