Anyway, the relevant point is that ethics is not a matter of majority vote.

[Baron Max]

This may be true for you but believe it or not, many other people are more advanced ethically than yourself. They do the right thing simply because they know it is the right thing to do, and not because of fear of punishment.

You keep saying that, James, ....even as you know damned well it ain't true. If that were true, then we wouldn't need cops, rules, laws or any of that other shit.

And please remember, James, laws and rules are made for people who would normally obey such rules and laws. Even you know that criminals don't obey no fuckin' laws or rules, so there ain't no need to make rules and laws for those bastards!

You refer often to being "trained" as a child. Perhaps you were smacked around, and so you got stuck in a simplistic idea of what ethics is.

James, surely you know what "training" is! Didn't your parents teach you not to shit in the middle of the living room floor? Didn't they teach you to speak English (or whatever the fuck you speak)? Didn't the teach you how to tie your shoes? Training, James, ....and it didn't involve smacking you around, did it? So why do you think my parents smacked me around?

A truly ethical person does not act rightly out of fear of punishment, but out of the desire to be a complete human being who enjoys life and if loved by his or her community.

A "truly ethical person"?? ...LOL! What the fuck is that, James?!

Have you been reading too many fairy tales lately, James? Or perhaps seeing to many chick flicks?

Oh, wait, I know what it is ......on the streets of major cities of the world, we call them victims!

You'd probably enjoy life a lot more if you could drop your constant fear.

Is that just to make sure you get in a personal dig or insult, James?

A good man is a good man no matter where you put him. Goodness often shines out most in times of adversity.

Ask those in Zimbabwe how they feel about such pretty words. Or ask the people of Darfur if those pretty words will feed them. And ask the terrorists if it'll keep them from cutting off your head.

Mugabe is a monster, and he is also seriously deluded. His problem isn't just a lack of ethics.

And yet all of your pretty ethics didn't keep him from ruling the nation or keeping his people in dire poverty and fear. Where's you ethics and morality when you need them, James?

Already, it is words that have made inroads into Mugabe's rule, more than guns ever have. Look at the current power-sharing negotiations.

He's getting old and seeing his mortality. I can almost assure you that it ain't due to your pretty words of good people and ethics and morality.

What motivated them? Did somebody just hand them a gun and they said "Derr... suppose I'll go and fight Hitler with this, then."

Yeah, that's pretty much it, James. Oh, the Army training helped to "motivate" them some, but mostly it was the guy on his left and the one on his right ....they were doing, so he did it. Most soldiers will tell you that they really fight for their fellows rather than the nation or the flag or Mom and apple pie ......or your silly ethics and morals, James.

They do not live well. Criminals lead sad and lonely little lives. They live on the fringes of society, or locked up in jails. That's not "living well".

That's because all you self-righteous ethicists and moralists hound them constantly and throw them into dirty, dank dungeon cells! Fuck, I'd go into hiding, too!

As to your second point, how do you know when somebody does something wrong and needs to be punished for it? That is, how do you decide that what they did was wrong?

Laws, rules, standards of behavior, etc, that were written by those old farts that you love so much! And let's not forget all that training that we had as children growing up in society ....the rules, laws, they're everywhere, THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!

Sorry. It wasn't meant as a dig - just an observation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Apology accepted. But I think I'll keep ya' guessin' about me, James, it's more fun that way.

Please realise that you are in a minority here. You are not "just like everyone else" in this respect.

So, if that's true, James, we shouldn't need so fuckin' many laws, rules and cops to enforce them, would we? And interestingly, James, there are new laws added every single day! Why? If we're all so good and ethical and moral, why do we need so many fuckin' laws and rules?

Why would somebody pay people to make sure you follow the Golden Rule?

Well, that's essentially what cops do, ain't it?

But that would be wrong. Wouldn't it?

Only because you and those old farts who made up the rules say so! Otherwise, why not shoot them? I mean, who the hell cares about them? And why should anyone care? He's a thief, he stole some bread, that's wrong, ain't it? So, ...shoot him!

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Max:

This may be true for you but believe it or not, many other people are more advanced ethically than yourself. They do the right thing simply because they know it is the right thing to do, and not because of fear of punishment.

You keep saying that, James, ....even as you know damned well it ain't true. If that were true, then we wouldn't need cops, rules, laws or any of that other shit.

But for maybe 90% of people we don't need cops etc. 90% of people obey the law without any threat of punishment. They want to do the right thing.

It's only an aberrant minority that needs policing.

And please remember, James, laws and rules are made for people who would normally obey such rules and laws. Even you know that criminals don't obey no fuckin' laws or rules, so there ain't no need to make rules and laws for those bastards!

You've got it precisely backwards. Explicit rules are made precisely for people who lack the intelligence or motivation or ethical knowledge to act on general principles of what is right or wrong. I agree with you that some people only response to force or threat of force, but they are a minority.

Training, James, ....and it didn't involve smacking you around, did it? So why do you think my parents smacked me around?

Because force seems to be all you know.

A truly ethical person does not act rightly out of fear of punishment, but out of the desire to be a complete human being who enjoys life and if loved by his or her community.

A "truly ethical person"?? ...LOL! What the fuck is that, James?!

Have you been reading too many fairy tales lately, James? Or perhaps seeing to many chick flicks?

Oh, wait, I know what it is ......on the streets of major cities of the world, we call them victims!

Ethical people make up the majority of society. Truly ethical people go one step further in spending time thinking carefully about their ethical stances, working hard not to be inconsistent, and aiming for virtue in their lives.

You'd probably enjoy life a lot more if you could drop your constant fear.

Is that just to make sure you get in a personal dig or insult, James?

No. Once again it is just an observation. My mental picture of you is of an old man sitting on a swing-chair on your porch, gun across his lap. He is basically frightened of other people, so he spends most of his time at home. At the same time, he has a gritty determination to claim and protect what he believes is rightfully his. They'll take his gun from his cold, dead hands, damn it!

I feel kinda sorry for you.

A good man is a good man no matter where you put him. Goodness often shines out most in times of adversity.

Ask those in Zimbabwe how they feel about such pretty words. Or ask the people of Darfur if those pretty words will feed them. And ask the terrorists if it'll keep them from cutting off your head.

There are plenty of good people in Zimbabwe and Darfur. And yes, many of them have been and are, even now, stopping terrorists from killing people.

Mugabe is a monster, and he is also seriously deluded. His problem isn't just a lack of ethics.

And yet all of your pretty ethics didn't keep him from ruling the nation or keeping his people in dire poverty and fear. Where's you ethics and morality when you need them, James?

My ethics and morality is slowing working through to a solution for Zimbabwe - one that won't involve bloodshed.

They do not live well. Criminals lead sad and lonely little lives. They live on the fringes of society, or locked up in jails. That's not "living well".

That's because all you self-righteous ethicists and moralists hound them constantly and throw them into dirty, dank dungeon cells! Fuck, I'd go into hiding, too!

You're really stretching here, Max. You're not likely to actually convince anybody that criminals are criminal because ethical people hound them into it.

As to your second point, how do you know when somebody does something wrong and needs to be punished for it? That is, how do you decide that what they did was wrong?

Laws, rules, standards of behavior, etc, that were written by those old farts that you love so much!

But why those laws and standards of behaviour?

According to you, aren't they just arbitrary rules made by the guys with the biggest guns?

So, if that's true, James, we shouldn't need so fuckin' many laws, rules and cops to enforce them, would we? And interestingly, James, there are new laws added every single day! Why? If we're all so good and ethical and moral, why do we need so many fuckin' laws and rules?

Good question. In fact, I would say that the US is over-policed. You have, what, 2% of your entire population in prison right now, do you not? And most of those shouldn't be there.

 

[Baron Max]

But for maybe 90% of people we don't need cops etc. 90% of people obey the law without any threat of punishment. They want to do the right thing. It's only an aberrant minority that needs policing.

Where did you get those numbers, James? Do you have anything to back them up or is it just more bullshit in an attempt to sway people to your way of seeing things?

And by the way, as I recall, most of the citations that cops issue are to regular ol' people, James, those who you seem to think are so fuckin' ethical and moral.

You've got it precisely backwards. Explicit rules are made precisely for people who lack the intelligence or motivation or ethical knowledge to act on general principles of what is right or wrong.

Then why are so freakin' many citations issued to those supposedly ethical and moral folks?

Because force seems to be all you know.

I've lived for over 65 years, James, and seen a lot of people in that time doing some pretty nasty stuff. I don't know why you can't see the world for what it is as opposed to your fantasy of it? I mean, just look at some of the latest crime stats in ....ahh, you live in Aussieland, don't you? Look around, James, how can not see how people actually interact?

Or is it because you're rich and wealthy and above all of it??? Hmm.

Ethical people make up the majority of society. Truly ethical people go one step further in spending time thinking carefully about their ethical stances, working hard not to be inconsistent, and aiming for virtue in their lives.

Where are those people, James? I've lived over 65 years and I know only a very few people like that ...and I think the number is decreasing, not increasing!

No. Once again it is just an observation. My mental picture of you is of an old man sitting on a swing-chair on your porch, gun across his lap. He is basically frightened of other people, so he spends most of his time at home. At the same time, he has a gritty determination to claim and protect what he believes is rightfully his. They'll take his gun from his cold, dead hands, damn it!

I feel kinda sorry for you.

Yeah, shit, ....I feel kinda' sorry for that guy, too. Is he in Aussieland?

My ethics and morality is slowing working through to a solution for Zimbabwe - one that won't involve bloodshed.

Yet how many thousands will die while we wait for your pretty words to find that solution? Or is that okay as long as it's just starving to death and not by a gun or machete?

You're really stretching here, Max. You're not likely to actually convince anybody that criminals are criminal because ethical people hound them into it.

That's not what I said, James!

According to you, aren't they just arbitrary rules made by the guys with the biggest guns?

Guns ....meaning power, ....yes, and the cops enforce those rules and laws.

Good question. In fact, I would say that the US is over-policed. ...

And yet the citizens in almost every city in the country is screaming for more police on the streets. So, .....how did you arrive at your opinion that we're over-policed?

Ya' know, James, this discussion has become nothing more than you and I repeating the same things back n' forth, with no resolution at all. I'm really running out of fun on this issue. So don't spend too much time on the next post ...I might not even respond unless it's something new and different.

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Max:

Where did you get those numbers, James? Do you have anything to back them up or is it just more bullshit in an attempt to sway people to your way of seeing things?

Society would collapse if the majority were lawless thugs who needed constant control by police or the military.

Try to estimate in your neighbourhood or street how many people you think are basically law-abiding, as opposed to those who you would regard as "shifty" or suspicious or untrustworthy. What percentages do you come up with, approximately?

If less than, say, 75% can be trusted, I'd seriously consider moving to a better neighbourhood.

And by the way, as I recall, most of the citations that cops issue are to regular ol' people, James, those who you seem to think are so fuckin' ethical and moral.

The law and morality are not synonymous, as I keep telling you. Driving 5 miles per hour over the limit is illegal, but it might or might not be immoral, depending on the circumstances.

I've lived for over 65 years, James, and seen a lot of people in that time doing some pretty nasty stuff. I don't know why you can't see the world for what it is as opposed to your fantasy of it? I mean, just look at some of the latest crime stats in ....ahh, you live in Aussieland, don't you? Look around, James, how can not see how people actually interact?

I think you've been sucked in by the media emphasis on crime. Crimes make the news. Acts of kindness and helpfulness and goodwill seldom do. If it bleeds, it leads, as they say. As a result, your perception of how much crime there is is likely to be distorted.

How many times has your house been burgled in, say, the last 30 years?

Or is it because you're rich and wealthy and above all of it??? Hmm.

I'm privileged in many ways, but I would not describe myself as rich in monetary terms, or in terms of material assets. I'm certainly not separated from mainstream society, or "above" anybody.

Ethical people make up the majority of society. Truly ethical people go one step further in spending time thinking carefully about their ethical stances, working hard not to be inconsistent, and aiming for virtue in their lives.

Where are those people, James? I've lived over 65 years and I know only a very few people like that ...and I think the number is decreasing, not increasing!

Maybe you move in the wrong circles. Most people I know are just everyday people making their way through life as best they can. They aren't out to exploit other people or to commit crimes.

Yeah, shit, ....I feel kinda' sorry for that guy, too. Is he in Aussieland?

I picture him in Texas, or one of those other Southern US states, where men are men and the cattle are nervous.

Yet how many thousands will die while we wait for your pretty words to find that solution? Or is that okay as long as it's just starving to death and not by a gun or machete?

The situation in Zimbabwe is far from okay. The causes of that situation are complex and there's no easy solution. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a number of other African nations.

Good question. In fact, I would say that the US is over-policed. ...

And yet the citizens in almost every city in the country is screaming for more police on the streets. So, .....how did you arrive at your opinion that we're over-policed?

No politician ever lost an election running on a "tougher on crime" platform. Citizens may think that putting ever more people in prison is the way to "fix" society's problems, but mostly they haven't really considered the issue. Lack of education is the problem, as in so many other areas of public policy.

How did I arrive at the opinion that you are over-policed? One way was to look at what people are in jail for, as well as who, demographically, is in jail. For example, the vast majority of prisoners in American jails are in for non-violent offences - often things like drug possession. Drugs are a social problem, not a law-enforcement problem. However, that is not how they are currently approached in the United States. For many, "tough on drugs" equates to "tough on crime", which means more police etc. That approach has been tried consistently for years in the US, and the problem it proposes to solve only gets worse. Clearly, a different approach is needed.

Ya' know, James, this discussion has become nothing more than you and I repeating the same things back n' forth, with no resolution at all. I'm really running out of fun on this issue. So don't spend too much time on the next post ...I might not even respond unless it's something new and different.

Fine. I'm glad I've given you some food for thought.

 

[Baron Max]

Society would collapse if the majority were lawless thugs who needed constant control by police or the military.

Which is precisely why we have cops, James!

I keep trying to tell you to imagine society without cops or laws, yet you keep skirting the issue. You continue to claim that most people would go on living as moral and ethical people. But it's precisely because they won't that we have to have so many laws and police to control it.

Try to estimate in your neighbourhood or street how many people you think are basically law-abiding, as opposed to those who you would regard as "shifty" or suspicious or untrustworthy. What percentages do you come up with, approximately?

James, I think the greater majority would do unethical, immoral things if they knew they could get away with it.
Free pizza by cheating the delivery guy? Sure they would!
Free big-screen tv by just picking it up from a loading dock? Sure they would!
Fuck the hot, sexy neighbor's wife? Ooh, you can bet on it!
Drive faster'n hell on the city streets? Oh, wow, what a trip, huh?
Take money that the cashier mistakenly miscounted? Of course!

And, James, it would only get worse as they were able to get away with such things. It would escalate into bigger and bigger crimes of opportunity ...which would escalate into planned crimes. And, James, that's exactly why we have cops in the first place.

I think you've been sucked in by the media emphasis on crime. Crimes make the news. ... ..., your perception of how much crime there is is likely to be distorted.

Police reports and records don't lie, James.

Most people I know are just everyday people making their way through life as best they can. They aren't out to exploit other people or to commit crimes.

James, I must tell you that you really don't know people very well. Look again at the list I made above. Those are "crimes" that ordinary people do on a regular basis all over the world. And they'd do it more if they could get away with it ...if they weren't scared of getting caught and thrown into prison for it. You like to call that "living in fear", but it's not ...it's learned behavior from childhood, and the visibility of cops driving around reinforces that learning.

The situation in Zimbabwe is far from okay. The causes of that situation are complex and there's no easy solution. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a number of other African nations.

Well, hell, James, just show them your system of ethics and morality, and they'll instantly see the light. Problems all solved ....just by waving a little piece of paper. Just as you've indicated above, people are just aching for a chance to be nice and ethical, ...they just forgot, that's all. Remind them, James, and they'll all become little saints.

Fine. I'm glad I've given you some food for thought.

I didn't say that, James. All you've given me is pretty words that mean nothing except in the fantasy world you've created in your mind.

You live in a fantasy world of nice guys and lovely, moral women. I know of the world where people like Mugabe hold reign over the lives of his people; where the rebels in Somalia raid and rape people in poor villages; where terrorists blow people up in market places;.....

Like I've said before, James, ours has become nothing but back n' forth nothing. It's just not much fun anymore.

Baron Max

 

[James R]

I keep trying to tell you to imagine society without cops or laws, yet you keep skirting the issue. You continue to claim that most people would go on living as moral and ethical people. But it's precisely because they won't that we have to have so many laws and police to control it.

No. We have laws and police so that vigilante violence is eliminated and unnecessary.

Try to estimate in your neighbourhood or street how many people you think are basically law-abiding, as opposed to those who you would regard as "shifty" or suspicious or untrustworthy. What percentages do you come up with, approximately?

James, I think the greater majority would do unethical, immoral things if they knew they could get away with it.

You hold a dim view of human nature. I disagree with you.

We're unlikely to make any progress from this impasse, as far as I can tell.

Police reports and records don't lie, James.

They may not lie, but they don't tell the whole truth either. All statistics need interpretation.

Suppose the police report that they have made twice as many arrests as usual this month. What can you conclude from that? Nothing much. Here are some possibilities:

1. The amount of crime has doubled in a month.
2. The police have worked twice as hard but crime hasn't changed.
3. Police are "cracking down" on something that they haven't previously arrested as many people for.
4. More people reported crime this month than last month, causing the police to take more action.

etc. etc.

Note that only in case 1 has the amount of actual crime increased.

The situation in Zimbabwe is far from okay. The causes of that situation are complex and there's no easy solution. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a number of other African nations.

Well, hell, James, just show them your system of ethics and morality, and they'll instantly see the light. Problems all solved ....just by waving a little piece of paper.

I said the causes are complex and there's no simple solution. If there was, it would already have been done.

Your caricature of the situation is unhelpful.

I didn't say that, James. All you've given me is pretty words that mean nothing except in the fantasy world you've created in your mind.

Meh. Whatever.

 

[Baron Max]

No. We have laws and police so that vigilante violence is eliminated and unnecessary.

Nice to see you admit that all those "nice, ethical types" are so prone to vigilante violence, James! Thanks, I wouldn't have thought of that.

You hold a dim view of human nature. I disagree with you.

Just heard on tonight's news that, in Texas, every 2 seconds a thief breaks into a parked car and steals stuff from it. And, James, that's just in Texas! Think about it ...every 2 seconds, 24/7, 365 days per year ...windows are smashed and valuable items stolen.

And, James, that's just auto break-ins, that doesn't count any other crimes at all. Yes, I have a very dim view of humans. And ya' know what? If we got rid of all those hard, rough men who watch over us, all those crimes would go up through the roof. Yes, James, I have a very dim view of humans.

I said the causes are complex and there's no simple solution. If there was, it would already have been done.

So, ...how many people are you doo-gooder ethicists and moralists gonna' allow to die before you do anything? Or don't the deaths mean anything in the greater scheme of ethics and morality?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Max:

Either you don't understand what I've said, or you're deliberately trying to rile me up.

Either way, I've lost interest in discussing this any further with you.

 

[iceaura]

You keep saying that, James, ....even as you know damned well it ain't true. If that were true, then we wouldn't need cops, rules, laws or any of that other shit.

It's the other way around - we only need cops and rules and laws because most people are ethical and moral.

If they weren't, cops and rules and laws would be no use at all - they'd have no one to defend, and no way to keep order, and no role.

 

[Baron Max]

It's the other way around - we only need cops and rules and laws because most people are ethical and moral. If they weren't, cops and rules and laws would be no use at all - they'd have no one to defend, and no way to keep order, and no role.

Care to explain that with a little more detail?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Max: Either you don't understand what I've said, or you're deliberately trying to rile me up.

Not trying to rile you, James, I'm trying to understand HOW you can hold ethics and morality on such a "high pedestal".

Is it ethical and moral to stand by and do nothing while tens of thousands of Africans are being killed and starving to death?

Is it ethical and moral to hold such ethics and morals while millions of people violate those same ethics and morals every single day all over the world?

Either way, I've lost interest in discussing this any further with you.

Yeah, me, too. But ethics and morality has been of interest to me since I learned to view it all from different perspectives - not just from the purely intellectual level. Try viewing it from the perspective of criminals and tyrants and people like Mugabe and Sadman Hussy.

Baron Max