Anyway, the relevant point is that ethics is not a matter of majority vote.

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
So who decides what is ethical and what is not, if not the people?
 
Baron Max said:
James R. and Tiassa make those determinations for us. You didn't know that??

Baron Max
Click to expand...

Yeah I read your conversation there, which prompted this thread. I am really curious, who determines the ethics of a society, if not the people?
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah I read your conversation there, which prompted this thread. I am really curious, who determines the ethics of a society, if not the people?
Click to expand...

You should read through some of the thread "Ethics and Morality, Huh?". I thiink there's some interesting points about it ...especially near the end.

And I'm now firmly believing that it's determined by the ones with the most power, which usually means the most/biggest guns! And, no, SAM, I don't think that's a joke. Look around the world, review history, ..it's always the most powerful figures that determine things like that.

Hitler determined the ethics and morality in Germany for a while because he was the most powerful, and the Nazis had all the guns. Then the US and the allies beat the shit outta' him and Nazis, using bigger guns and more power, and thus determined the NEW ethics and morality in Germany.

I know you're going to make some comment about Ghandi, but be careful and think about it ......where was the power? Even the biggest guns might not be able to stand up to the power of vast, angry populations.

So, see? Power is many things. But mostly guns determine ethics and morality.

Baron Max
 
So in other words, you believe ethics is a matter of power? That right and wrong is decided for us?
 
S.A.M. said:
So in other words, you believe ethics is a matter of power?
Click to expand...

Oh, absolutely! Look at history, SAM, it's all over the place. What you have to be careful of reading INTO history what you want or think. Look at any of the "great civilizations" ...they were all founded on and by military might. They were also maintained and controlled by power, by military might. Those same people, the generals or whatever, set up laws and rules for the people to follow. Those laws and rules were, in fact, the general's "ethics and morality" for the people.

S.A.M. said:
That right and wrong is decided for us?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it's not so simple as you make it. The "best" civilizations were those that were able to convince the people that they were the ones who decided .....even tho' they were somewhat "coerced" into believing the same as the generals with the power. See?

Hitler, for example, didn't go around smashing people over the head. Through speeches and such, he was able to convince them that he was THE ONE to be their leader. See how subtle it can be?

Look at Ghandi ...same thing. Through his flowery speeches, etc. he was able to convince the people to gather in HUGE numbers (mob power!) to overthrow the British. Call it what you want, but it was POWER.

And followers of Ghandi's ideals then attempted to set up the basic ethics and morality for India ...they failed, and y'all are still trying to sort it all out, but that basic power is still evident in India. Even you, now and then, bring up Ghandi as an ideal ...when in fact, he wasn't much different to way Hitler came to power.

Baron Max
 
So you think Gandhi decided what ethics are for India? What ethics did he decide for us?
 
S.A.M. said:
So you think Gandhi decided what ethics are for India? What ethics did he decide for us?
Click to expand...

Yes, in a manner of speaking. It was his followers, people who believed in his basic philosophies, began to set up the values of the Indian people. Sure, many things were carried over into the society from the past, but it was all "molded" and "shaped" by Gandhi's followers. And, hell, SAM, even some of the old British ethics and morality was probably carried through to this day!

See? Power is an odd thing, and it causes people to do and think differently than they would if we were all just wandering around on the open planet! If "Joe Redneck" says something, if he's convincing enough, then other people will come to believe it. Pretty soon, even if "Joe Redneck" is dead and gone, his basic principles are still followed ....even if no one knows where the fuck they came from.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Yes, in a manner of speaking. It was his followers, people who believed in his basic philosophies, began to set up the values of the Indian people. Sure, many things were carried over into the society from the past, but it was all "molded" and "shaped" by Gandhi's followers. And, hell, SAM, even some of the old British ethics and morality was probably carried through to this day!

See? Power is an odd thing, and it causes people to do and think differently than they would if we were all just wandering around on the open planet! If "Joe Redneck" says something, if he's convincing enough, then other people will come to believe it. Pretty soon, even if "Joe Redneck" is dead and gone, his basic principles are still followed ....even if no one knows where the fuck they came from.

Baron Max
Click to expand...

Please name any one idea which Gandhi decided was ethical for India
 
S.A.M. said:
Please name any one idea which Gandhi decided was ethical for India
Click to expand...

You're missing the whole point, SAM!!

But even so, I'll bet that YOU could think of a few ethics that were prompted by Gandhi and/or his followers that are in use today in India.

You're just not taking the time to think, to ponder. You're too quick to want specific examples ...and many could be from centuries ago!

Baron Max
 
No I cannot. In fact, anything that Gandhi espoused was, AFAIK, promptly discarded on his death. Which is why I asked you which idea he decided was ethical for India.
 
S.A.M. said:
No I cannot. In fact, anything that Gandhi espoused was promptly discarded on his death. Which is why I asked you which idea he decided was ethical for India.
Click to expand...

Good!! Now you're getting the idea!

People "using" Gandhi's "mystique" formed the powerful "mobs" of Indian people, and drove out the British. Then, still using the "Gandhi mystique", they set up the system by which India is being run today. Gandhi might have been just the firgurehead, the idol, the "rock star" of India ...........but the real power was just waiting in the wings to take over.

Baron Max
 
What Gandhi mystique? He was against the partition, he was against violence, he was against westernisation. What part of his mystique do you see in India?
 
S.A.M. said:
What Gandhi mystique? He was against the partition, he was against violence, he was against westernisation. What part of his mystique do you see in India?
Click to expand...

Okay, I give up. If you're not willing to look deeper into history, and only want specific examples, then do it on your own.

Baron Max
 
If you don't give me any example of an ethical system distributed by power, how can I understand your POV?
 
Ethics is a social preservation mechanism.
If you're Inuit, you put the old, infirm, and sickly on ice flows to die. The cost to trying to keep them alive is too high.
 
Roman said:
Ethics is a social preservation mechanism.
Click to expand...

I would agree with that ...in the old days where there were few people in a tribe or village, etc.

But in the modern world, ethics has come to mean much, much more than that. It's a method of social interaction, in even the most mundane things, ...like acting, speaking, relating, driving, shopping, drinking, dancing, dressing, makeup, hairstyles, ......, and on and on.

Baron Max
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top