But what was said? "Let" could imply evolution in any case. The result was from a random "let" instruction.
Any atheists here who were once believers?
- Thread starter wegs
- Start date
If you had taken the time to find out yourself, you would know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
Why? Are you too lazy to read that article which will actually educate you?
This why religion is a problem. So, if I have never read the Bible, or I simply don't believe that it is a book of truths...does this mean if God exists, that I couldn't possibly have any connection to him? If God exists, does he expect blind obedience to the Bible? If you think this Jan, how did you arrive at that 'conclusion?'
If God exists, he is not fathomable. Ancient civilizations have conjured up all kinds of spiritual 'beliefs' and 'gods.' Even goddesses. The Bible to me, at this point, is a collection of stories (based on speculation and opinions of people at that time) as to who God was to them. Many natural disasters that are explained in the Bible, are often attached to a Deity. The wrath of God must be the reason behind these natural disasters. Then as we move into the New Testament, and the concept of God, is a vastly different one than the Old Testament. This same book also is designed to control people, by instilling fear. The early church killed people, for being 'blasphemers,' for not following the Bible as truth. Hmmm....the Bible 'teaches' the Commandment, 'thou shalt not kill,' but the early church killed people who didn't blindly obey them? :bugeye: Things that make ya go...hmmm.
I no longer wish to argue the point of if a theist can also be a Darwinist. Because upon further discovery on my own, I've come to the conclusion that believing in the Bible, isn't necessary if one wishes to know and/or love God. I'm not of the school of thought that if there is no evidence for a god, then one must not exist. For those who believe that, that is fine. But, where my journey here has led me, is much more simplistic, and that is if God exists, if a Creator was behind 'creating' a universe and all of its inhabitants, it doesn't require a book or a religion or a church or a temple or a mosque to gain acceptance. Religion cheapens the concept of an omnipresent and omniscient ''Being.''
So, to me...to debate the idea of a theist not being able to be a Darwinist is a moot point, because the Bible is not objective truth. It's a compilation of stories that people put together, as to their interpretation of who God was to them. Why do you accept their version of God, and notthe Jews' version? Why don't you accept Islam? And there exist belief systems that are outside of the three Abrahamic faiths. Why don't you accept them? What is it about the Bible that gives it validity? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's a choice for you to follow Christianity, if that's what you follow. It is a choice.
Evolution took place whether the Bible states it or not, whether Christianity 'agrees' with it or not. That's the problem with religion. If you stop being Christian, and 'shop' for a new faith somewhere else, you will get a whole new set of doctrine, that supposedly will lead you to a better relationship and potential 'after life' with God.
All I'm saying is...it doesn't matter what ANY church teaches, for those are not truths. A truth can be verified. Who is verifying this? A church? Early church 'fathers?' Your pastor? Your neighbor? Faith is built on things not yet seen, and I have said a lot in my life, and also on this forum. That is true. Having faith in God, takes one having to believe something that someone else is telling you. You are believing the Bible, as having the keys to the truths of life, and of a possible afterlife. That doesn't make it true...that is just true to you.
So, to defend your position using the Bible, even if it is to argue your own beliefs, is a moot point. Because you are willing to look at God, from the view of the Bible, only. (and the other texts that you mentioned in your evolution thread) If God exists, do you think he only exists as the Bible depicts him?
Where I'm at is this...if God exists, he doesn't need anyone to prove him. He doesn't need a church, or a temple, or a mosque to gain popularity, and acceptance. He just is. But, the Bible pushes people to thinking a certain way about God. That's what religion does, period. It pushes a certain viewpoint of who God is. Religions often create competition amongst people within the same religion sadly, and outside of it. Christianity teaches that the secret to getting to heaven, is by following Jesus. Christianity, like other religions, teaches people that this life isn't a gift, the after life is, and if you screw up here, you may not get the 'gift.' But, if you walk the narrow path, following Jesus...doing this or that...you will be granted 'favor' with God. He will have mercy on you, and you may spend all of eternity with him.
That's religion. That is what it teaches, and promotes...that this life ain't good enough, that it's a mere testing ground, and if you ''pass'' the tests...you ''may'' get to heaven. Many Christians will say...'I know where I'm going after I die.' I never was one of them, but I didn't blame for them for their arrogance. Faith sometimes breeds arrogance and ignorance, two close cousins.
Which is why ''witnessing'' and/or ''evangelizing'' is so important to a Christian...because this is what they believe also is their mission in life. To get the wayward, ignorant souls to convert their thinking and to follow the 'one, true God.'
Meanwhile, how about Muslims? How about Jews? How about Mormons? How about Jehovah Witnesses? How about Buddhists? How about non demoninational Christians? How about atheists? How about agnostics? If there is a God, are all these 'groups' shit out of luck because they didn't believe in the Christian idea of God?
So, this goes way beyond comparing notes as to who believes in the theory of evolution and who doesn't. It's about releasing myself of having to know for certain if God exists, and just living my life the best I can, now. This life is a gift, and if there is an after life, I guess I'll find out about it, after I die.
The amazing thing of where I've arrived with all of this, is that I no longer care what others do or think. It is immensely freeing, to let go of if a God exists, if an afterlife exists...and just be. Atheism is not about criticizing and/or mocking faith believers for their beliefs (although, there are atheists who do that, unfortunately), as believers would have everyone believe. That is a misconception. Atheism is a concept that allows one to view life, as is, as it unfolds. It would be nice if the definition of atheism was modified a bit to mean...''one who doesn't need to know if God exists.'' I'm open to the idea of God existing, but I simply don't need to know, anymore.
Just my thoughts to it all.
If God exists, he is not fathomable. Ancient civilizations have conjured up all kinds of spiritual 'beliefs' and 'gods.' Even goddesses. The Bible to me, at this point, is a collection of stories (based on speculation and opinions of people at that time) as to who God was to them. Many natural disasters that are explained in the Bible, are often attached to a Deity. The wrath of God must be the reason behind these natural disasters. Then as we move into the New Testament, and the concept of God, is a vastly different one than the Old Testament. This same book also is designed to control people, by instilling fear. The early church killed people, for being 'blasphemers,' for not following the Bible as truth. Hmmm....the Bible 'teaches' the Commandment, 'thou shalt not kill,' but the early church killed people who didn't blindly obey them? :bugeye: Things that make ya go...hmmm.
I no longer wish to argue the point of if a theist can also be a Darwinist. Because upon further discovery on my own, I've come to the conclusion that believing in the Bible, isn't necessary if one wishes to know and/or love God. I'm not of the school of thought that if there is no evidence for a god, then one must not exist. For those who believe that, that is fine. But, where my journey here has led me, is much more simplistic, and that is if God exists, if a Creator was behind 'creating' a universe and all of its inhabitants, it doesn't require a book or a religion or a church or a temple or a mosque to gain acceptance. Religion cheapens the concept of an omnipresent and omniscient ''Being.''
So, to me...to debate the idea of a theist not being able to be a Darwinist is a moot point, because the Bible is not objective truth. It's a compilation of stories that people put together, as to their interpretation of who God was to them. Why do you accept their version of God, and notthe Jews' version? Why don't you accept Islam? And there exist belief systems that are outside of the three Abrahamic faiths. Why don't you accept them? What is it about the Bible that gives it validity? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's a choice for you to follow Christianity, if that's what you follow. It is a choice.
Evolution took place whether the Bible states it or not, whether Christianity 'agrees' with it or not. That's the problem with religion. If you stop being Christian, and 'shop' for a new faith somewhere else, you will get a whole new set of doctrine, that supposedly will lead you to a better relationship and potential 'after life' with God.
All I'm saying is...it doesn't matter what ANY church teaches, for those are not truths. A truth can be verified. Who is verifying this? A church? Early church 'fathers?' Your pastor? Your neighbor? Faith is built on things not yet seen, and I have said a lot in my life, and also on this forum. That is true. Having faith in God, takes one having to believe something that someone else is telling you. You are believing the Bible, as having the keys to the truths of life, and of a possible afterlife. That doesn't make it true...that is just true to you.
So, to defend your position using the Bible, even if it is to argue your own beliefs, is a moot point. Because you are willing to look at God, from the view of the Bible, only. (and the other texts that you mentioned in your evolution thread) If God exists, do you think he only exists as the Bible depicts him?
Where I'm at is this...if God exists, he doesn't need anyone to prove him. He doesn't need a church, or a temple, or a mosque to gain popularity, and acceptance. He just is. But, the Bible pushes people to thinking a certain way about God. That's what religion does, period. It pushes a certain viewpoint of who God is. Religions often create competition amongst people within the same religion sadly, and outside of it. Christianity teaches that the secret to getting to heaven, is by following Jesus. Christianity, like other religions, teaches people that this life isn't a gift, the after life is, and if you screw up here, you may not get the 'gift.' But, if you walk the narrow path, following Jesus...doing this or that...you will be granted 'favor' with God. He will have mercy on you, and you may spend all of eternity with him.
That's religion. That is what it teaches, and promotes...that this life ain't good enough, that it's a mere testing ground, and if you ''pass'' the tests...you ''may'' get to heaven. Many Christians will say...'I know where I'm going after I die.' I never was one of them, but I didn't blame for them for their arrogance. Faith sometimes breeds arrogance and ignorance, two close cousins.
Which is why ''witnessing'' and/or ''evangelizing'' is so important to a Christian...because this is what they believe also is their mission in life. To get the wayward, ignorant souls to convert their thinking and to follow the 'one, true God.'
Meanwhile, how about Muslims? How about Jews? How about Mormons? How about Jehovah Witnesses? How about Buddhists? How about non demoninational Christians? How about atheists? How about agnostics? If there is a God, are all these 'groups' shit out of luck because they didn't believe in the Christian idea of God?
So, this goes way beyond comparing notes as to who believes in the theory of evolution and who doesn't. It's about releasing myself of having to know for certain if God exists, and just living my life the best I can, now. This life is a gift, and if there is an after life, I guess I'll find out about it, after I die.
The amazing thing of where I've arrived with all of this, is that I no longer care what others do or think. It is immensely freeing, to let go of if a God exists, if an afterlife exists...and just be. Atheism is not about criticizing and/or mocking faith believers for their beliefs (although, there are atheists who do that, unfortunately), as believers would have everyone believe. That is a misconception. Atheism is a concept that allows one to view life, as is, as it unfolds. It would be nice if the definition of atheism was modified a bit to mean...''one who doesn't need to know if God exists.'' I'm open to the idea of God existing, but I simply don't need to know, anymore.
Just my thoughts to it all.
From the link...
"Statements from the Church in recent decades hold that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, guided by God"
Jan, you stated in your ''Darwinist'' thread during our specific exchange, that the theory of evolution doesn't ''make sense'' to you. If that is still the case, then how can you argue against it? I respect you and your opinions, Jan...but, doesn't matter what religion accepts it or denounces it...if you don't understand evolution yourself, then these conversations will continue to go nowhere.
wegs,
Why is religion a problem?
Assuming God exists, you are connected to Him. There is no way that you aren't.
The Bible basically tells the story of a praticular linage
Not by radar, no. If God exists, He is the cause of the ability of the invention of the radar device.
Conjure?
Can you elaborate?
Then I suggest you look at it again, unless you are content with your current state of ignorance.
Can you give some biblical explanation of what you mean?
Same as above.
And so are young women with perky boobs and asses.
That's called hypocrisy. and the subject of the point i'm making.
Of course you don't. because you may have to change your opinion, which you don't want to do.
I'm not arguing that you do.
jan.
Why is religion a problem?
Assuming God exists, you are connected to Him. There is no way that you aren't.
The Bible basically tells the story of a praticular linage
Not by radar, no. If God exists, He is the cause of the ability of the invention of the radar device.
Conjure?
Can you elaborate?
Then I suggest you look at it again, unless you are content with your current state of ignorance.
Can you give some biblical explanation of what you mean?
Same as above.
And so are young women with perky boobs and asses.
That's called hypocrisy. and the subject of the point i'm making.
Of course you don't. because you may have to change your opinion, which you don't want to do.
I'm not arguing that you do.
jan.
haha, don't think dmoe meant it like that.
Hey wynn;
I have explored other spiritual 'ideas' over the past few years, and I've come to the conclusion that they all lead to the same place...people trying to tell others what to believe, as it relates to God. As it relates to spirituality. I think that every religion has some good points to them...from moral ''standards,'' to how to live one's life with purpose and fluidity. But, to lock one's self into one school of thought, to me...creates problems. That is probably the best way I can articulate how I feel about other spiritual beliefs, even those outside of the three Abrahamic faiths, if that makes sense? I appreciate your perspective.
It's interesting you say this...I've turned to my faith all my life, in times of suffering. The good news is, I felt a sense of peace during those times. The bad news is, it was only temporary. During my times of deep grief and sorrow over losing a loved one let's say, I never felt comforted by the 'idea' of heaven. ''So and so is in a better place, now,'' were often the words of well meaning friends and family who practiced Christianity. How do they know this? I don't appreciate anymore empty words of comfort, designed to make us feel better, and that's about it. In the end, those empty words don't produce anything worthwhile, at least in my own experience. So, theology is not 'required' in order to press on despite hardship, it's just something believers convince themselves of, to make sense out of sorrow and pain.
(my opinion only)how do you mean?
Time for the standard classic:
hehe, i like that.
And it won't be. :/
We have become a society of labelers, indeed.
haha, that's a good point, geeser.
We are now thinking alike.
If you succeed, would be interesting to see if it makes the New York Times Bestseller list.
Why are you asking me, how should I know that? I have to get my information from the official position of the church, which is what I provided you.
I'll answer it.
Taken from the link (Q) provided:
The first notable statement after Darwin published his theory appeared in 1860 from a council of the German bishops, who pronounced:
"Our first parents were formed immediately by God. Therefore we declare that the opinion of those who do not fear to assert that this human being, man as regards his body, emerged finally from the spontaneous continuous change of imperfect nature to the more perfect, is clearly opposed to Sacred Scripture and to the Faith."
NOW...the RCC's stance is that a person's 'soul' is created by God, but that the scientific theory of evolution doesn't conflict with the doctrine of Christianity. In other words, they are copping out and not answering it, directly.
For to come out and answer it directly, with AUTHORITY...would mean that they were wrong to say it was literal, years before? The RCC teaches that the Pope is the infallible interpretor of Scripture. Hmmm....
Or, does it mean that the 'Holy Spirit' whispered into one of the Popes ears, and now...through ''Divine inspiration''...the RCC now accepts the theory of evolution.
''The mystery of faith,'' that sounds like a good 'answer.' (and one that the Catholic Church 'uses' quite a bit to explain things, when it is backed into a corner.)
It can be a bit confusing and frightening, to look under the hood of religion. To answer you Jan, this all doesn't mean that one can't be a theist in order to believe in the theory of evolution. It merely means that one can't take the Bible literally, AND believe in the theory of evolution. That is the answer the Catholic Church should give, instead of tap dancing around the elephant in the room. The elephant though isn't the theory of evolution, the elephant is that the Bible is a combination of fables that one shouldn't take literally.
(in my opinion)....
Robittybob1 "In fact in the Beautiful Christian Song thread I even say The Lord asks me to rewrite Genesis, and it is definitely going to have Darwinism as part of it, unless Jan Ardena can tell us clearly why it shouldn't."
If you succeed, would be interesting to see if it makes the New York Times Bestseller list.
@ wegs - I've asked for help and I can think 2 or 3 I'd like on the team. Aqueous ID (my original choice), wegs, wynn and myself if ever the four of us could agree on anything.
Like I hear that you are "free" in your thinking now - so what about the revelation could you accept that yet? Or is the Virgin Mary still too precious?
I will live vicariously through you three.
I believe the bible is a book of fables. The story of Jesus also, not entirely accurate. I think he lived, I think he died for a cause, just not the cause you think.
I think he was against religion. Ironically, an entire religion was built about and around him, but I'm of the opinion, that he didn't believe in religion at all. (which is why the Pharisees had him put to death) I don't have any issues believing that Jesus was here to teach the people in his day, about how to live lives absent of the dogmas of religion. He could very well have taught people how to truly connect with God, and that didn't involve following the religious laws of that day. There are quotes of his in the NT that point to the fact that he expressly didn't want to be compared to God. To be considered on the same level, as God. But, after he died, the story became that He was God incarnate. Jesus never SAID that. I think the 'story' we have come to learn about Jesus was largely made up, after he died. Historians (not Bible scholars) have traced back to Jesus' time, stating that they believe there was a story to be told there about Jesus, but to believe the story that he died for 'original sin,' etc...would cause you to HAVE to believe in the Garden of Eden, my friend. See? It all comes back to fables and non truths, in the end.
The story of Jesus in the NT, directly confronts the story of Genesis. So...then, what? Religion is a problem. All religions, not just Christianity. The reason religion is a problem is that it causes people to feel the need to explain the unknown. You nor I nor anyone here nor anyone alive, can explain with certainty...if there exists ''a god.'' If there exists an afterlife.
The Bible is just a version as to what people thought back during that time. One can extract some potentially positive moral 'truths' from it, but that's about it. My opinion? We don't need anyone to tell us who God is...for they simply don't know, themselves.
If you wish to believe the Bible, you will have to back up how the story of Jesus confronts the story of Adam and Eve, and 'original sin.' (if you don't believe Genesis to be a literal story of the origin of man) In a nutshell, I personally wouldn't rewrite Genesis or the Bible...it's just not a book worth following, to me.
Can you clearly state that the Virgin Mary is no longer precious? Could she have given birth to twins? Could she abandon one of her babies soon after birth?
I'm not asking you to believe this but testing to see if your previous religious life has totally gone and whether you can think of the Virgin Mary no longer as an iconic figure that is beyond normal human behaviours, like, did she have sex and did she have other children? Did she ever lose her virginity?
I have a feeling for an ex-Catholic these are going to be difficult questions. Can you say "if Mary existed she probably had sex with Joseph, and lost her virginity. When she conceived there was a statistical chance of conceiving twins. There was no reason why she could not have had other children later."
I'm not asking you to believe this but testing to see if your previous religious life has totally gone and whether you can think of the Virgin Mary no longer as an iconic figure that is beyond normal human behaviours, like, did she have sex and did she have other children? Did she ever lose her virginity?
I have a feeling for an ex-Catholic these are going to be difficult questions. Can you say "if Mary existed she probably had sex with Joseph, and lost her virginity. When she conceived there was a statistical chance of conceiving twins. There was no reason why she could not have had other children later."
Honestly, I haven't given much thought to an ''alternative'' story to the virgin birth, and now...this all doesn't matter anymore, to me.
So, with regards to you 'rewriting' the Bible...how do you propose to reconcile the fact that Christianity expressly teaches that Jesus died for original sin, and that original sin came from the Adam and Eve 'story?' (and you don't believe that Genesis is a literal story)
You can't have it both ways, is my point. The Catholic Church teaches that the theory of evolution is fine to believe in, and they stay a bit quiet these days about the Genesis story.
Why doesn't someone just come out and say...you know what? The Bible was written for reasons unknown to us...and therefore, we are not sure of the truths of it, anymore.
Religion is a farce...a means to control the masses. You don't care for the virgin birth story, so you want to rewrite that part of the Bible too, I guess. lol It doesn't work that way, is my point. If you believe in God and that Christianity is the 'right way' to God...and to heaven...and that Jesus died for original sin...then, you MUST believe that Genesis is a literal story of the origin of man, because THAT is where original sin came from. This doesn't mean I think a theist can't be a Darwinist, but it means that you would have to rewrite a good portion of the Bible, in order for the OT and NT to tie together, with any real meaning.
One can't say...I don't take Genesis literally, but I take the NT literally. Because the OT is a FORESHADOWING of the NT. That is why.
That is why religion is a little more than a tool to control people, and make them feel inferior. Once you free yourself of the need to understand the unknown, you will see what I see. I'm not encouraging you to abandon your beliefs, but you have to make excuses for Christianity in order to truly follow it.
I'm not saying it is going to be easy, Elijah and John the Baptist didn't have it easy either, but there is a way but as I said I needed someone to take it seriously, to be able to say "Yes that is possible about the Virgin Mary". It was hard for me too but it is possible and it then gives us the first piece in the puzzle to the questions you ask me.
For I always think if there were two babies did it make a difference which one was born first? Could the wrong one have been born first and the wrong one anointed? What would have happened if the other child had become the Messiah? The World would be a different place. The story gets interesting doesn't it? Was there a mix up?