Another gender thread. Sorry, I had to raise this one.

V

visceral_instinct

Monkey see, monkey denigrate
Valued Senior Member
Why is it that when it comes to male/female dynamics, people feel the need to take everything back to the age when we were all living in caves?

I've seen posts in another thread asserting that since we once lived in a situation where we had to fight for survival (and consequently 2 parents looking after a kid was better than one), women should be discerning when it comes to sex whereas it is acceptable for men to have sex with anything with 2 X-chromosomes.

Firstly, I seriously doubt that women who sleep around are doing it to have children. Secondly, and blindingly obvious, we don't live in the caves any more. There's no sense in adopting a behaviour pattern just because our very distant ancestors once needed to do that. I'm an 18 year old girl, far too young to have children, at my age sex is purely about pleasure. So why should I take a different attitude to it than a male because I have 2 X-chromosomes?

Also, the usual pattern in society is that people mate for life (ie marry, there did the primordial word 'mate' get your attention?!) and have children, so why should there be a difference there either?
 
First of all, we probably rarely lived in actual caves. Secondly, our early history shaped our behavior, which comes from evolution. We have only had civilization for 5,000 years or so, but there have been humans for at least a million years or something like it. We don't have to follow our past, but it is helpful to know where we come from.
 
Yeah, but there's a difference between knowing where we come from and insisting on keeping values that are out of date. If women really have an instinct to turn down sex why do we need the evo-psycho crowd spitting vitriol to remind us that we're not allowed to like sex?
 
I really don't think that people "mate" for life in general any longer. at one time it might have been a right thing to do but because of promiscuity and indiscretion in society that ritual has long since passed us by. Even in the wild animal kingdom very few of them ever mate for life. True , some do just as a few humans do but generally speaking they don't.
 
Desperate lives

I think the phenomenon you're noting, VI, is desperation. These are people who are just looking for any philosophical justification that increases their chances of getting laid, or perpetuates their illusion of control over nature.
 
visceral_instinct said:
Why is it that when it comes to male/female dynamics, people feel the need to take everything back to the age when we were all living in caves?
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Because civilization is only about 6,000 years old. Whereas homosapiens have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. Our behavior, our desire, our psychology was strongly influenced by all those years we spent evolving in world without birth control, or abortion, or women's rights.

Even today, with all of those things, sex carries a much greater risk for a female than a male. Yes, you can use birth control, but it's not 100% effective. Yes, you can abort the baby. But even pro-choice women often have a hard time making that decision when they feel that life inside of them.

Males and females are different, we are shaped by our primitive past. Yes, we live in different times with a vastly greater range of opportunities (especially for women).

But to talk about the nature of mankind and ignore his origins, to ignore what made him what he is, is illogical.
 
vi as much as i disagree with mads conclusions i do have to agree with his point that so many things are based on inpulses which date back to the dawn of time so to speak. In reality there is probably not one of us alive now who isnt the product of rape for instance because a rapist has an evolutionary advantage over someone who choses to persue a courtship

Now i used that example very delibratly because just because we are the PRODUCT of rape doesnt mean we are all rapists. Most people overrule this inpulse for various reasons. The same goes for the impulse to cheat, i dont denie we have it but that doesnt mean its right to act on it
 
madanthonywayne said:
Because civilization is only about 6,000 years old. Whereas homosapiens have been around for hundreds of thousands of years. Our behavior, our desire, our psychology was strongly influenced by all those years we spent evolving in world without birth control, or abortion, or women's rights.

Even today, with all of those things, sex carries a much greater risk for a female than a male. Yes, you can use birth control, but it's not 100% effective. Yes, you can abort the baby. But even pro-choice women often have a hard time making that decision when they feel that life inside of them.

Males and females are different, we are shaped by our primitive past. Yes, we live in different times with a vastly greater range of opportunities (especially for women).

But to talk about the nature of mankind and ignore his origins, to ignore what made him what he is, is illogical.
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I see where you are coming from, but like I said there's a difference between knowing where we come from and insisting that we should be a certain way now because of those things.
 
visceral_instinct said:
I'm an 18 year old girl, far too young to have children, at my age sex is purely about pleasure.
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Huh? Far too young?
I'd guess you've had the plumbing running well enough for years to get pregnant.
Like Madant pointed out, it's not certain that BC is going to work every time. I would think that would be reason enough to keep your pants on. At least I hope so , If you really don't want kids that's is the only prevention method thats 100% sound.
Or go fuck everyone and then wonder which douchbag's child you have in your belly. Your choice.
 
cosmictraveler said:
I really don't think that people "mate" for life in general any longer. at one time it might have been a right thing to do but because of promiscuity and indiscretion in society that ritual has long since passed us by. Even in the wild animal kingdom very few of them ever mate for life. True , some do just as a few humans do but generally speaking they don't.
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That is not true, there are people who meet at a young age and stay together for their whole lives.
 
John99 said:
That is not true, there are people who meet at a young age and stay together for their whole lives.
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Divorce Rate
Welcome to divorcerate.org, the resource for providing information on the divorce rate in America and around the world.
What is the current divorce rate in America?
It is frequently reported that the divorce rate in America is 50%.

"50% of all marriages in the America end in divorce."


http://www.divorcerate.org/




Percentage of population that is married: 59% (down from 62% in 1990, 72% in 1970)
Percentage of population that has never married: 24%

Median age at first divorce: Males: 30.5
Females: 29

Median age at second divorce: Males: 39.3
Females: 37

Median duration of first marriages that end in divorce: Males: 7.8 years
Females: 7.9 years

Median duration of second marriages that end in divorce: Males: 7.3 years
Females: 6.8 years


Percentage of married people who reach their 25th, 35th, and 50th anniversaries:

25th: 33%
35th: 20%
50th: 5%


http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml
 
Spud Emperor said:
No, you're just a prude and she shocked your sensibilities.
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I'm not a prude, Ive just chosen a different life than most people. When it comes to this subject I've beaten all the odds. But it's a choice I made, not because it was natural to me or that it always felt right, but because I'm proud and refuse to make the same mistakes that have caused so many hardships in the lives around me.
Thanks to john, also, for noting that people still have highly rewarding life long relationships.
 
Cosmo,is that supposed to say "what's the point"?

The question is why are there so many divorces. As I said, It's a choice that two people make.
Relationships are always work. Life isn't a fairytale, you have to want it and work for it.
 
clusteringflux said:
Cosmo,is that supposed to say "what's the point"?
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no it isn't, its supposed to say 'how rare is it for two people to be together forever and be happy'. you, and to a lesser extent john, are turning the convo into your personal rants, and they're off topic.
 
cluster said:
I'm not a prude, Ive just chosen a different life than most people.
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And a worldview in which the only two choices (for women) are virginity until marriage (which nowdays means about eight years of abstinence after the evolutionary biology or God's will as expressed in His created forms have primed the woman for sex) or rampant, sluttish promiscuity with douchebags.

Which pathological little scenario you describe as "realistic".

It works for you, does it ? Congratulations.
visceral said:
I'm an 18 year old girl, far too young to have children, at my age sex is purely about pleasure.
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At everyone's age, sex is mostly about pleasure. You are a year or two past the historical and biological age of first reproduction for our species - which is a relevant observation, unless you believe humans to be far more malleable by ephemeral cultural factors than do most people who have considered the matter.
 
I'm actually quite surprised how quickly the modern male is adapting to this new "Social Ideal". The (young) guy that often gets laid, is able to mask all the behaviours expected of him. He is kind, he can cry(but not ball), he can dress nice, has just the right smell and he even regularly shaves his balls. Young men will go through all kinds of hoops to get laid, it actually is the same as it ever was. Now though it IS women controlling the hoops. I don't see what you are bitching about. The new metrosexual ideal from the east and the left coast is IN lady!

Now the old guys that wants to get laid just has to be rich - lotsa luck changing that one. Maybe in a few more decades, we really are advancing fast these days.
 
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