Animal Rights

You overgeneralize. I can tell that your personal experience with animals has been superficial.

You misread, and so ascribe incorrectly (and arrogantly, at that).

Many species are in fact very servile. It's common (although not universal) in animals with the pack-social instinct to defer completely to the pack leader.

The "independence" and "freedom" in question there was "independence/freedom from human control," and not "independence/freedom from other members of their species." I'd thought that was clear from the context, but maybe not. Likewise, I went on to cite the prevalence of precisely the well-defined social orders in animals that you cite as evidence that they do, indeed, understand and exhibit interest in "governance."
 
Mod Hat — Enough, already

Mod Hat — Enough, already

No more of this stupid crap.

James R, and that's enough off-topic bleating from you, too. If you don't want to discuss the issue, don't go out of your way to provoke people.

Quadraphonics, just let it go. Now.

Those are orders, gentlemen.
 
Tiassa:

See post #20 where I discussed the issue. I have clearly told quadraphonics I do not want to interact with him. He won't take no for an answer, but insists on stalking me.
 
The "independence" and "freedom" in question there was "independence/freedom from human control," and not "independence/freedom from other members of their species."
And why is that an important difference? Dogs are just as happy to have a human alpha as a canine. And less contrivedly, there have been instances of a runt of one primate species slinking away from his pack and joining a pack of another species of smaller stature, where he quickly assumes the alpha role. The little guys are happy to have the biggest, toughest alpha of any pack in their neck of the woods.
Likewise, I went on to cite the prevalence of precisely the well-defined social orders in animals that you cite as evidence that they do, indeed, understand and exhibit interest in "governance."
As a libertarian, I'm keenly aware of the negative correlation between governance and freedom, beyond a certain minimum level which we passed a long time ago. Unfortunately, these days it seems that most Americans are not.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:

And why is that an important difference?

Because the latter is insanely more complex than the former.

It seems possible, at this point, that part of the problem leading to the cynicism that Quadraphonics and I have shown some of these ideas is because, for instance, the "Principle of Equal Consideration" means something even broader and more liberal to us than it does to James. When Quad writes, for instance, "I see little reason to think that wild animals have no interest in their governance - they often fight about it rather dramatically", I feel as if I understand the point he's making. And if that's true, then I need to figure out why it is so confusing or, in some cases, offensive to other people.

And what strikes me most directly—accepting that people can often read the same words and arrive at different understandings according to definitions, applications, and the various boundaries demarcating ideas—is that the boundaries of our definition of an idea or term might be broader than, say, James intends.

That's why I talk about putting the cougar on trial. Or that string of questions I asked about the bear.

To those who might recall a sharply political subject around here, I often argue about abortion under similar contextual stresses. If we write an anti-abortion law according to supportable principles of law, and not arbitrarily to accommodate a static frame taken from a dynamic set of ideas, then these are the problems. Thus we end up with arguments about women having to check in with the authorities if their period is irregular, to make sure there hasn't been a death to report.

Likewise, in reorienting our definitions of commonality, rights, and status according to some of the animal-equality rhetoric we see, if we develop these ideas around supportable principles, and not arbitrarily—e.g., moral vegetarianism and the end of The Met's Prime New York Peppercorn Steak (and rare, at that)—then these are the problems I'm having figuring out how this is going to work.

I mean, by some of the principles put forward, the world will need some sort of review process to determine what qualifies as food.

A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table, a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have been an ingratiating smile on its lips.
....."Good evening," it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches, "I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in parts of my body?" It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters into a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.
.....Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.
....."Something off the shoulder perhaps?" suggested the animal, "Braised in a white wine sauce?"
....."Er, your shoulder?" said Arthur in a horrified whisper.
....."But naturally my shoulder, sir," mooed the animal contentedly, "nobody else's is mine to offer."
.....Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling the animal's shoulder appreciatively.
....."Or the rump is very good," murmured the animal. "I've been exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there's a lot of good meat there." It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew the cud. It swallowed the cud again.
....."Or a casserole of me perhaps?" it added.
....."You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?" whispered Trillian to Ford.
....."Me?" said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, "I don't mean anything."
....."That's absolutely horrible," exclaimed Arthur, "the most revolting thing I've ever heard."
....."What's the problem Earthman?" said Zaphod, now transferring his attention to the animal's enormous rump.
....."I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing here inviting me to," said Arthur, "it's heartless."
....."Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be eaten," said Zaphod.
....."That's not the point," Arthur protested. Then he thought about it for a moment. "Alright," he said, "maybe it is the point. I don't care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just ... er ..."
.....The Universe raged about him in its death throes.
....."I think I'll just have a green salad," he muttered.
....."May I urge you to consider my liver?" asked the animal, "it must be very rich and tender by now, I've been force-feeding myself for months."
....."A green salad," said Arthur emphatically.
....."A green salad?" said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly at Arthur.
....."Are you going to tell me," said Arthur, "that I shouldn't have green salad?"
....."Well," said the animal, "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually decided to cut through the whole tangled problem and breed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am."
.....It managed a very slight bow.
....."Glass of water please," said Arthur.


(Adams)
____________________

Notes:

Adams, Douglas. The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. 1980. Flag.Blackened.net. December 5, 2010. http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book2.html
 
Because the latter is insanely more complex than the former.
"More complex?" Certainly. But, "insanely more complex?" I think you're being a little hyperbolic there. Or should I say "insanely hyperbolic?"

Dogs and humans created a voluntary multi-species community twelve thousand years ago. We've worked out the details of who's in charge (the one with the opposable thumb and the arguably greater intelligence), who sleeps where, who drives the car while the other one sticks his head out the window, who enthusiastically guards the house from burglars while the other one drags himself off to perform depressing tasks that even he doesn't understand, etc. This just doesn't look like an "insane" level of complexity to me.

When cats voluntarily joined us a few thousand years later, they barely increased the complexity of the relationship at all.

Now parrots are a new wrinkle, but we'll probably figure that one out in another hundred years. The problem with those species is that when there are no humans around they will either destroy the house and all its contents, which makes the humans rather unhappy, or they will be locked in a miniature jail, which makes them rather unhappy.

Meat animals of course have a different relationship, but it's arguably even less complex. Dogs and cats have a relationship that, on the balance, suits them (and we know this because until relatively recently humans did not physically restrain them from emigrating), whereas meat animals don't (and we know this because many species do need to be physically restrained).
 
And why is that an important difference?

Because the issue under consideration is how humans ought to relate to/manage/govern/whatever animals - up to and including the intentional cultivation/suppresion of various traits (specifically, receptiveness to human control) in the animals via breeding and genetic engineering.

Dogs are just as happy to have a human alpha as a canine.

Only because they have been intentionally and systematically bred by humans to be so. Wild dogs do not generally exhibit such a perspective. The entire process of domestication consists primarily of preventing dogs not so inclined to human domination from breeding. This has been reproduced in contemporary times using wild foxes - you take wild foxes and selectively breed them for docility towards humans, and within a handful of generations you have pets. You breed them for hostility to humans, and within a few generations you have aggressive killers that can't be handled. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

Point is - again - that animal interest makes a poor basis for constructing animal rights, because many of the relevant animal interests are systematically manipulated by humans (and other animals) to begin with.

And less contrivedly, there have been instances of a runt of one primate species slinking away from his pack and joining a pack of another species of smaller stature, where he quickly assumes the alpha role. The little guys are happy to have the biggest, toughest alpha of any pack in their neck of the woods.

Except when they aren't - anecdote is not data, and we'd necessarily never hear of the cases wherein the pack of smaller animals responds by tearing the interloper limb-from-limb and devouring him. It's likewise hypothesized that the stories of compassionate dolphins rescuing swimmers are produced by a similar selection bias - i.e., the dolphins are merely playing with the swimmers, but we necessarily never hear from the ones they push out to sea, rather than back to shore.

But you're too hung up on the whole "alpha dog" structure - that isn't how all animals are governed, nor is any such exclusivity implied by or important to my observation. Animals exhibit numerous systems of governance, and their interests in such are plainly visible within those structures. Many of them are very flexible and nuanced. The outright fighting for alpha status was simply a dramatic example intended to remind that animal governance and interest therein is readily visible and ubiquitous.
 
See post #20 where I discussed the issue.

That post does not address any of the issues I brought up - in point of fact, it is nothing but a projection of motives onto strawmen.

I have clearly told quadraphonics I do not want to interact with him.

If you don't want to interact with me, then don't respond to my posts, or invoke my name, or otherwise address yourself to me. Since you persist in doing those things, it seems clear that what you want is not a lack of interaction, but rather a certain specific type of interaction. To wit: what you want is to belittle me and tell me to shut up, and have me comply. That isn't going to happen.

He won't take no for an answer, but insists on stalking me.

This of course begs for a certain response, but at this point it would likely do more to get on Tiassa's nerves than anything else. So I'll just thank you again for all the lulz :]
 
Agreed

Animals should have some rights to keep them content, but having human rights or equal to human this is out of the question, recently Spain give Human rights to apes LOL. I think we should keep the animals healthy, and provide whatever they need to keep them content. Abuse is not acceptable I even against people throwing a tropical plant in middle of winter because is not pretty anymore, for me this is terrible. See ya. PETA is necessary to create an ethical behavior in the animal Industry, recently some laws where changed in Florida to make the pigs happier with more livable space and this is good.

Could you state what your views are on this matter?

I'd say that animals should be treated like people to a degree. Since they are not given any ways to take care of themselves humans must step in and do it for them. They have to be treated as we want ourselves to be treated, without neglect or torment and kept in good healthy condition as we should be as well. Animals that are mistreated should be helped and those that hurt them should be punished but not as severely as humans are but close.This is about domecticated animals mainly. Other types of animals should also be protected as well like elephants that are endangered or other wild animals.
 
Animals should at least have rights that protect them from harm and persecute those that deliberately harm or neglect them. Just because a creature can't carry an intellectual conversation doesn't mean that it should be ok for it to suffer.

(By the way, PETA are hypocrites; they destroy disturbing amounts of animals that they could save! I took environmental studies in college and my profs told us all about them and Sea Shepard (with them it's more their violent tactics)!)
 
Back
Top