An amazing article in regards to Mormonism

P

Paris_Lennon

Registered Member
I've been reading the Book of Mormon, and as I meet weekly with an old friend who is attempting to 'convert' me, I felt it fair to also listen to the other half. The truths sound as pleasing as any religion recruiting a new member (although his intentions are entirely pure and of no personal gain for him), but I felt that there had to be scientific evidence either supporting or disproving the religion, if anything else due to its natural recency. I found this article online and felt that it was EXTREMELY helpful.

http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm

The author makes it very clear that it was not in his best interest to leave the church, but in being true to himself and his faith he lists his reasons for leaving the church. It's a lengthy read, but cites many archealogical and scientific sources.

Certainly a good read for anybody interested in the topic of mormonism!
 
You don't learn the truth of a religion by going to its enemies. I'm sure you could find a lot of bad things about any religion by listening to its disaffected members. You also do not find God through science. God created the heaven and earth in a way for us to walk by faith. We will not see absolute evidence of him scientifically by his design. Faith comes first then he will reveal himself to you in his own due time.
 
I don't even know where to start.

Unless you are born Mormon or are -- well, how should I put it -- completely sure of yourself, you will always feel like a second-class Mormon if you convert, and other Mormons will only reinforce this image.

In an argument, a Mormon missionary once said to me that
DOING NOTHING *IS* LOVE
meaning that you have to think someone loves you if they once said so, even though afterwards, you had no communication with them whatsoever.

They just make me ill.

I cannot understand how these people can be so heartless and mindless.
 
You don't learn the truth of a religion by going to its enemies. I'm sure you could find a lot of bad things about any religion by listening to its disaffected members. You also do not find God through science. God created the heaven and earth in a way for us to walk by faith. We will not see absolute evidence of him scientifically by his design. Faith comes first then he will reveal himself to you in his own due time.

Sorry I must have miscommunicated. The individual who wrote the article was a 30 year devotee who searched for DNA support and found conflicting reports with BYU scholars, amongst others. In order to believe The Book of Mormon I feel a person must first seek out the validity of the book, regardless of its contents. What they believe, what they do, and what it says is trumped, in my mind, by a direct lack of evidence. Since Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the rest of the initial missionaries/profits are also a part of early American history I thought I could poke around online and perhaps find some supporting artifacts that had been found. I was just sharing the link because I thoroughly enjoyed and respected it.
 
What do you need to know about Mormonism, other than it's instigator, was a liar, a cheat, racist and a thief? He was eventually beaten and stabbed to death by an angry mob, and then his family swept aside when Brigham Young assumed control. It's a sordid tale of corruption, and deceit.

Check out Joseph Smith's exploits, not least the fact he fell for a trick, and was exposed as a fraud, after he supposedly transcribed the orginal golden plates on which 'The Book of Mormon' was inscribed.(which miraculously disappeared as quickly as they appeared to him afterwards.)
 
Saul of Tarsus
Joseph Smith
Charles Taze Russell
L. Ron Hubbard
etc.

All claim to have "the inside track".
So many to choose from... so little time.
 
THE LIFE AND CONFESSIONS

OF THE LATE MORMON BISHOP,

JOHN D. LEE;
(Written by Himself)

EMBRACING A HISTORY OF MORMONISM FROM ITS INCEPTION
DOWN TO THE PRESENT TIME, WITH AN EXPOSITION
OF THE SECRET HISTORY, SIGNS, SYMBOLS AND CRIMES OF THE
MORMON CHURCH.

ALSO THE TRUE HISTORY OF THE HORRIBLE BUTCHERY KNOWN AS

THE MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE.

--PUBLISHED 1877--
 
Are there any Mormons on this form to clarify some questions that I have?

In the introduction of the Book of Mormon it states that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to god by abiding by its precepts, than any other book. > Is the Book of Mormon more correct than the four gospels in the New Testament?


"The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah. I have been told by some Mormons that the Messiah of the second coming is going to be a Mormon. > Is this correct?

'the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth' > When was the Lord's kingdom established on earth the last time, and when did it disappear? Also, what is the purpose of the second coming of the Messiah when Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth?

From what I have read in the gospels, the purpose of the second coming of the Messiah, the King is to establish His kingdom on the earth.

Jesus spoke of King to come. > "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. --- the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foudation of the world:"

According to the Mormons, the purpose of the Messiah to come has already been done 'the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth',

I asked some Mormon brothers, "What is the purpose of the Messiah to come when Lord's kingdom is already established on the earth?" They looked at each other and did not know what to answer.

If there are any Mormons on this form can you answer these questions.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370 said:
Are there any Mormons on this form to clarify some questions that I have?

In the introduction of the Book of Mormon it states that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to god by abiding by its precepts, than any other book. > Is the Book of Mormon more correct than the four gospels in the New Testament?


"The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah. I have been told by some Mormons that the Messiah of the second coming is going to be a Mormon. > Is this correct?

'the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth' > When was the Lord's kingdom established on earth the last time, and when did it disappear? Also, what is the purpose of the second coming of the Messiah when Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth? From what I have read in the gospels, the purpose of the second coming of the Messiah, the King is to establish His kingdom on the earth.

Jesus spoke of King to come. > "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. --- the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foudation of the world:"

According to the Mormons, the purpose of the Messiah to come has already been done 'the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth',

I asked some Mormon brothers, "What is the purpose of the Messiah to come when Lord's kingdom is already established on the earth?" They looked at each other and did not know what to answer.

If there are any Mormons on this form can you answer these questions.

Peace be with you, Paul
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"Correct" meaning the most accurately translated book ever. It was translated directly from the original source by the gift and power of God. The Bible has been translated, retranslated, reinterpreted, altered by men. Many of God's truths have been omitted or changed in the Bible. Stating that the principles in the Bible are still correct. It is still the word of God. The Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible. It clarifies and restates the true gospel that was somewhat lost in our current Bible.



'The Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth' > When was the Lord's kingdom established on earth the last time, and when did it disappear? Also, what is the purpose of the Second Coming of the Messiah when Church of Jesus Christ of the latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth?
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ set up his Kingdom (or church) when he was on the Earth. The 12 apostles spread the word after Christ descended into Heaven. The true church was still on the Earth until the apostles were all killed. Then the church fell into apostasy and Christ’s true church was taken from the Earth, until God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and through him re-established Christ's Kingdom on Earth. It will never again be taken from the Earth. When Christ returns he will personally rein over his Kingdom for a thousand years of peace. All the righteous who has ever lived will be resurrected at that time. The wicked will be destroyed and have to wait till the end of the thousand years along with all of the other wicked people who had died previously. During that time there will be no more pain, death, or suffering. The righteous (not just Mormons) will live on Earth with Christ for those thousand years. The righteous who has not accepted Christ's true gospel will be be taught and given a chance to accept it or reject it. The spirits (souls) of the wicked will be sent to a place that they too will be given another chance to accept or reject Christ. After the thousand years they too will be resurrected and then will come the Final Judgment. Before the final judgment every single soul that has ever lived will have been given ample opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. No one will be judged until then. This is why we do temple work for the dead. There are certain ordinances such as baptism that must be performed. We baptize the dead by proxy so if that person in the spirit world accepts the gospel then the work would have been done for him or her.

I hope that answers your questions. If not please ask more, and I will try to answer.
 
Brutus1964: > "When Christ returns he will personally rein over his Kingdom for a thousand years of peace"

Battig1370: > Are you saying that His Kingdom is 'The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints' that has already been established on earth?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
Battig1370

Yes. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is his church on Earth today. Gordon B. Hinkley is the living prophet in our day. Jesus Christ works through the prophet to run his church. When Christ returns in the second coming he will directly run the church himself. Christ will be our spiritual leader as well as our temporal leader. He will be the leader of the world.
 
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In defense of mormons-

Well, at least one of them.

I have always had the idea that the mormons are an extremely dogmatic religion, having seen how much control the leaders exert over their followers.
I just talked to a friend of mine to express my concern over his belief in some of the ideas that I am reading on this forum, and he told me he hadn't even heard of many of the ideas I related to him. Either I was playing the telephone game very well that day, or he was lying, or he just didn't believe all the extraneous stuff. He said he had been mormon for many years, associated with many other mormons (as is the usual), and never heard of some of this mormon doctrine I asked him about.

I don't want to waste your time with all the evidence I have of him being truthful, but the only conclusion I can come to is that there are mormons who don't believe the extraneous BS, the same way I don't believe the extraneous "christian" BS that comes out of human interpretation.

I bring this up because I spoke with him two days ago, so it seemed rather timely. He has told me before about his mission trip, when he almost died of an illness and he says he learned much more about love from one of the people he was supposed to be evangelizing than he ever could have taught anyone. He is obviously not trying to go around showing everyone he is correct about who God is anymore, except by his lifestyle at the most, but is still a mormon.

He is the only mormon I know who is not incredibly dogmatic, but I don't have a lot of contact with mormons. Maybe I have just said they all look alike to me without really knowing.

He doesn't seem to care much about every word of the mormon books. It seems that the books are not his God.

I'm sure Brutus can give us all a reason to think that this friend of mine is somehow of low rank in the mormon establishment at which point I will feel quite free to join with the prosecuting side. If not there is one more surprise for me in store, I guess.
That's all the defense I can give as I am not a mormon, nor have I ever been a mormon, so I have not taken much time to look into what their books profess.
 
Cole Grey

I hope you don't think that everything I am writing in this forum is actual LDS doctrine. Some of it is and some is not. Some of my posts are pure speculation, or my own personal view of church doctrine. Please do not take everything I write at face value. I apologize if I have given anyone the wrong impression. I tried to avoid naming my particular faith because I was afraid that from that point on what ever I wrote would be thought to be Mormon doctrine. I am neither a spokesman for the church or a leader in any capacity. What I write is my own opinion. If you are interested in learning about the church then please go to the source. Don't take as gospel what anyone says in an internet forum such as this.

For information of the LDS Church:

Official Church Websites:

www.lds.org

www.mormon.org
Click to expand...
Unofficial information websites:

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/index.html

This site if excellent for explaining some the Church's more deeper doctrines and dispels a lot of Anti-Mormon propaganda.
Click to expand...
Please let me know what part of LDS doctrine you are conserned with, or what you discussed with your friend. I will try to answer it as well as I can and I will find sources in reputable websites to back up what I am saying.
 
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so Brutus...that dude who struggled with his fiath in mormonism, and found out it was fradulent is your 'enemy'?
what...does this mean that, given the right circumstances-power, you would consider killing his dissent?

Also, why is it you people who follow your revealed religions put ALL your faith, your LIVES, into the gamble of some dude claiming they had a vision about this that or tother??...why

can you not think for yourself? you have to have some dodgy glorifies channeller tell you how to live your life, and your kids life

you have heard what a shyster he was. actually i say 'shyster' cause he is such a hypocrite. so, you deny that knowledge do you. not that if he'd been all goodness and light would i trust him. why the////should i?
i trust myself. and people that seem to talk sense. but those who claim to know the origins, where we are heading, off-the wall scenarios of our destiny, and chit chat with 'God'? fukem
 
BRUTUS,

I suggest that you look closely at any ideas you write which follow the statement, "we mormons believe", or anything like that. Perhaps you should spend more time promoting the basics of your faith, that is where most of the truths will be, I think.

My friend and I discussed the, "we'll be Gods with our own planets", thing mostly.

I would contradict your statement that you are not a spokesman for the LDS church. Here on these forums, you are. You promote their ideas while mixing in some of your own "speculation", and only a mormon could know which ideas are which. That is one thing that is so hard about communicating religion.
 
Brutus1964: > Yes. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is his church on Earth today. Gordon B. Hinkley is the living prophet in our day. Jesus Christ works through the prophet to run his church. When Christ returns in the second coming he will directly run the church himself. Christ will be our spiritual leader as well as our temporal leader. He will be the leader of the world.

Battig1370: > That's interesting! Is it possible that you may be in error? All the other christian denominations and sects say that what you say here is false.

Jesus spoke of King to come. > "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. --- the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" - (Matt. 25:31-46 )

'the King will say to those on His right hand' Do you actually believe those on His right hand are Mormons?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
So where are these gold tablets? Have you or anybody you know ever seen them?
 
Slotty

The Gold Plates were only used for Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon. After he did this the Angel Moroni took them. They are no longer on Earth.

Testimony of 11 whitness who accually saw the Gold Plates.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS



The Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER JUN. HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER SAMUEL H. SMITH
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