Yeah, but then you'd be assuming that women's opinions can be trusted! Jan knows what she REALLY meant, which was "don't tell me what you think."
Americans who identify as spiritual, experience greater life satisfaction
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Reference - your 12,000 posts here telling other people what to think (and what not to think) about your God.
What I've learned along the way, is that for much of my life, I've cherry picked out-of-context passages that fit with my sense of morality, and tossed the rest. But, I didn't really read those passages in their entire context, you know? So, I'm going back now, and examining the Bible from an objective view, and realizing that there was a lot that I didn't know, honestly. Unfortunately, the West does a terrible job with how it conveys religious expression. From ''mega churches,'' to bigotry, to prejudice to misogyny, much of what I've seen in the US for example in terms of Christianity, stems from believers' perversion of different passages, and not necessarily the passages themselves. Of course, there is some confusion, we're talking about an ancient text with writings dating back 2000+ years ago. I think before one can truly say ''I believe or don't beieve this,'' it's important to read the book in its entirety, because how can you not believe something that you don't know? We sometimes don't know, what we don't know.
I appreciate your concern, James.
I'm not sure I've ever witnessed this riled side of yourself on here, Jan. lol
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
I assume you have never heard of the "Geordie" bible? Not many pages but you need to have a degree in "Geordie", if you're not a geordie. I am a Geordie but can only understand maybe 80% but that's pushing it. It is much harder to understand but much shorter. I didn't write it obviously(I would of understood 100% of it, maybe not, I might of been high as a kite and drunk and not remember that I actually wrote something that I didn't 100% understand it when I read it. Etertaining book based on a few bible tales. Very obscure take on bible stories mind. I don't know maybe you'd like it: https://www.amazon.com/New-Geordie-...?keywords=geordie+bible&qid=1582233908&sr=8-2What I've learned along the way, is that for much of my life, I've cherry picked out-of-context passages that fit with my sense of morality, and tossed the rest. But, I didn't really read those passages in their entire context, you know? So, I'm going back now, and examining the Bible from an objective view, and realizing that there was a lot that I didn't know, honestly. Unfortunately, the West does a terrible job with how it conveys religious expression. From ''mega churches,'' to bigotry, to prejudice to misogyny, much of what I've seen in the US for example in terms of Christianity, stems from believers' perversion of different passages, and not necessarily the passages themselves. Of course, there is some confusion, we're talking about an ancient text with writings dating back 2000+ years ago. I think before one can truly say ''I believe or don't beieve this,'' it's important to read the book in its entirety, because how can you not believe something that you don't know? We sometimes don't know, what we don't know.
I appreciate your concern, James.
Out of genuine curiosity, can you give an example of what you think is an "objective view" of the Bible? Perhaps an example of something you previously interpreted subjectively but now interpret objectively?
If you never knew anything of Christianity, and someone handed you the Bible, you would read it as you would read any other book. I don't read it right now based on the interpretations handed to me by other Christians, I'm reading it for myself, to learn of its content. I read it like a series of stories, people who suffered, and who sought after a god for refuge. The societies and problems of that time aren't much different than ours, today. There is still as much existential strife as there was back then, and we are all still ''seeking'' to find peace and happiness. So, it's hard to pinpoint one story above the rest, but if you were to read the Bible for your own edification, without pinning a religion on it, you would come away learning something. You might walk away from it not believing in the divinity of Jesus, but you can at least say you read it completely.
Many people, believers and non-believers, haven't read the entire Bible, yet speak about it as if they know what it states. I just encourage people to read it, and then decide. But, go into it without bias. That's what I meant.
But, if I had to pinpoint a story, I'd say Jesus' life, death and crucifixion. It was not uncommon for crucifixion to be the punishment for felonies, and Jesus was thought of as a felon because of his threat to the government and main religion, of that time. Now, it's with faith, that I've chosen to believe. Belief/Faith is a choice, and if you choose to not believe, that is fine. But, the objective part would be that Jesus existed, and I suppose to what end, is where faith comes in.
Sorry about that.I'm not sure I've ever witnessed this riled side of yourself on here, Jan. lol
In answer to your question.
I know where you're coming from.
I understand the skepticism of terms like religion, or spirituality.
Every month it seems, folks are latching on to these terms, and giving them new trendy meanings.
I think you have to adopt a religion, or a way of life that keeps you close to God.
For example you decide to ease up on clubbing, drinking, or smoking. Not because a religion told you to do it.
Because you know doing those things aren't in your best interest. That's just an example.
Spirituality, is coming to that understanding. It is like shaking off old dusty bad habits, that kept you asleep.
So you have to indulge in both, in order to make real progress.
But the religion itself, is not what it going to define you.
It is only a way of life, at least. Or a link to God, at best.
Sorry about that.
In answer to your question.
I know where you're coming from.
I understand the skepticism of terms like religion, or spirituality.
Every month it seems, folks are latching on to these terms, and giving them new trendy meanings.
I think you have to adopt a religion, or a way of life that keeps you close to God.
For example you decide to ease up on clubbing, drinking, or smoking. Not because a religion told you to do it.
Because you know doing those things aren't in your best interest. That's just an example.
Spirituality, is coming to that understanding. It is like shaking off old dusty bad habits, that kept you asleep.
So you have to indulge in both, in order to make real progress.
But the religion itself, is not what it going to define you.
It is only a way of life, at least. Or a link to God, at best.
Yea, I dislike the term ''religion,'' and I'd say that many people (myself included) make the mistake of basing religious facts on how other religious people live their lives. So, if someone were to say to me for example, ''I believe in taking care of myself,'' but they're morbidly obsese, and a couch potato...I wouldn't stop believing in taking care of myself, based on the actions of others. That's a simple example lol but, I think many of us view Christianity for example, based on how Christians namely in the West, live their lives. (mega churches, greed, gluttony, Trump-lovers, etc) But, if you read the Bible, those ideals are not what Jesus taught. So, many people twist spirituality to suit themselves, and toss the rest out, creating their own ''religion.'' (which is nothing like the religion they claim to follow)
Christians living in Africa, and the Middle East probably have a better understanding of Christianity (following Jesus) than many in the West, sadly. That's my opinion.
My attitude to religion and belief in God or any form of ID, is that it is each to there own. I am also known to give some religious people and IDers a blast if and when they try and deride science or the scientific method and substituting or using their own personal beliefs as a means to that end.
I see the bible as an obscure book, written in an obscure age, by obscure men. Be that as it may, your beliefs are your own and no one can or should interfere with them.
I have been married for 41 years to the same woman, a devout, true and honest Christian, who often [even to a fault] goes out of her way to help others. My own position is well know. Our morality [mine and my wife's] starts with respect and tolerance for each others beliefs, feelings, and what I see as logic and common sense in societal conventions. My own beliefs, political and other, is not dictated by "convention" to whatever orginization I am apart of, but whether I believe it to be wrong or right. I love a drink....beer and or kava, but due to my advancing years, far more moderated now then when I wore a younger man's clothes. Never ever ever touched anything else, other then coffee or tea. I love clubbing, going to a good show, having fun, and more often then not, my wife is generally with me...always guiding and telling me when I have had enough.
The goodness that I attribute to my Mrs, as a christian, is similar to my own moral codes, and why I believe we have a successful marriage, despite the obvious differences. Our Son, now a grown man, also seems to have followed in our footsteps. A conversation with him one day had him telling me that, he respects and loves his Mum, for her love of other people, here charity and success as a parent. In the same breath he confided in me that he sees in me a guiding hand, fare and impartial, and always offering a voice of reason and logic...not my words, his.
So far in our married life we have been fortunate enough to have been the sponsor of two less fortunate human beings [children] in Africa, with prompts from my wife, and I must say, that at both times, it has giving me quite a rewarding feeling of satisfaction.
If you God or any other God exists, then I'm 100% certain that my wife will get to heaven [if there is such a place] and that I should also be there...if it does exist!
A good yarn with perhaps a moral to tell?
That is also true of most decent works of fiction as well, though. All decent stories hopefully leave you having learnt something about the human condition.
Okay - but the interpretation of it will still be subjective, not objective.
You say you want to read it without interpretations handed to you, yet you do that with the assumption that Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. There is certainly some considerable evidence that the Jesus of the Bible actually existed. It is believed to be so by many, and to them the evidence would be convincing. There are others who do not believe that he did exist. I am not sure, however, one can simply assert that the existence of Jesus is objectively true and devoid of religious assertion.
I would also question how one could have faith in something without an a priori understanding of what that something offers, or is claimed to be. Can you honestly say that if you had been devoid of religious belief, religious instruction, and picked up the Bible without any knowledge of its pages or characters, that you would believe in the main character of the New Testament?
But not in Harry Potter?
Or Frodo Baggins?
I also question whether belief/faith is really a choice. I honestly do not think I could choose to believe. I might choose to go on a quest to read about things, about people, characters, and belief in that person might follow, but I do not think I could not at any time choose to believe. Belief either forms or it doesn't. Just as I could not choose to love a particular person, or choose to like tomatos. I can do things to improve the chance of things forming, but if and when it comes, I am reasonably certain that I will have no choice about it.
A good yarn with perhaps a moral to tell?
That is also true of most decent works of fiction as well, though. All decent stories hopefully leave you having learnt something about the human condition.
Okay - but the interpretation of it will still be subjective, not objective.
You say you want to read it without interpretations handed to you, yet you do that with the assumption that Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. There is certainly some considerable evidence that the Jesus of the Bible actually existed. It is believed to be so by many, and to them the evidence would be convincing. There are others who do not believe that he did exist. I am not sure, however, one can simply assert that the existence of Jesus is objectively true and devoid of religious assertion.
I would also question how one could have faith in something without an a priori understanding of what that something offers, or is claimed to be. Can you honestly say that if you had been devoid of religious belief, religious instruction, and picked up the Bible without any knowledge of its pages or characters, that you would believe in the main character of the New Testament?
But not in Harry Potter?
Or Frodo Baggins?
I also question whether belief/faith is really a choice. I honestly do not think I could choose to believe. I might choose to go on a quest to read about things, about people, characters, and belief in that person might follow, but I do not think I could not at any time choose to believe. Belief either forms or it doesn't. Just as I could not choose to love a particular person, or choose to like tomatos. I can do things to improve the chance of things forming, but if and when it comes, I am reasonably certain that I will have no choice about it.
Well, mere belief doesn't mean much, honestly. I've learned the difference between believing and having that belief change my life. The latter is a choice to follow the belief, in order that you allow it to change your life. The Bible isn't a self-help guide, to me...the spiritual lessons are true. For me, it means something, to you...it's just another book. But, I didn't always think this way, but now that I've found truth (Truth), I can't see leaving it.
To your points above, of course, it's difficult to read the Bible, because we will all enter into it, with a certain degree of bias. But, you can try to be objective. As an aside, Harry Potter is known as a fictional piece, but that's not the section of the bookstore where the Bible is shelved.
As an aside, Harry Potter is known as a fictional piece, but that's not the section of the bookstore where the Bible is shelved.
I did hear one bookstore did place the bible in the fiction section
I think there might have been a court case. If there was I never heard any judgement
Edit - I looked it up, won't let me copy a extract sorry
Seems weird there is a law against doing it
https://m.betootaadvocate.com/headlines/naughty-ungodly-sick-boy/
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Is this you giving wegs some advice, by any chance, Jan? Telling her that she has to adopt a religion, etc.?
You old hypocrite, you! Caught out again!