Amber Alert Issued for Fetus (Strong Content Advisory)

[Tiassa]

Well, you know ....

The article referred to her having miscarried earlier on in the year. Unless she had stuffed pillows of varying sizes up her clothes during the later months of her pregnancy, it would be difficult to actually pretend to be pregnant during the last weeks, especially if you're living in a house with your husband and teenage children. If she went out and bought a pregnancy suit that allows itself to be inflated with water and worn under clothing, as that worn on TV when pregnancies are faked, it shows premeditation once again.

To the one, this is still possible. To the other, my daughter is two years old, my partner is prone to fits of screaming about how horrible the sex is and always was, and if she decides to claim it's hormones resulting from having been pregnant two years ago, she gets to claim that and all I get to do is hope she goes to see a doctor about it.

It will be harder to convince a jury that Montgomery's premeditation is symptomatic of her insanity, but it can be done.

As sick as you may be about your partner's behaviour, would you not notice that she was pregnant? Let's say during the second and third trimester, would it not be evident that she was pregnant? Wouldn't you notice if that distinct bulge around her midsection started to disappear, only to have a baby appear a couple of months later?

In theory. Depends on how crazy she is. Other than that, I don't even notice her haircuts anymore.

Besides, I make a point of trying to not see her body anymore. I don't need to see it. It's not mine to enjoy. She doesn't take care of it. She's the only adult I see on any sort of regular basis. Quite literally, it could be done. All it really requires is some insanity on her part, and the fact that I just don't really care what she does anymore, and would prefer if she just shut up and kept to herself entirely.

As to your partner Tiassa... well.. all I can ask is, why? Why stay if you're that unhappy? Why stay for your child, if your child is going to grow up and be witness to her parent's unhappiness with each other?

A number of factors. That we were together long enough to reproduce resulted essentially from my leaving myself wide open to it. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt on principle. She wanted it specifically to exploit. Turns out she was planning this for a few years.

Add to that an old, outstanding DUI that I can beat if I can afford a lawyer. In the meantime, my driving privileges are technically restored, and all I need to do is find a few hours when she's not drunk and passed out in order to slip away to the DMV and get my license back.

And then I can worry about a job and getting the hell out of this house.

Well, okay, I should probably study for the test first. I haven't actually tested for a license in fourteen years.

As to the rest, she's already declared her intention to lie in court. She will not help with me acquit myself, even though her mere presence is instrumental to the whole DUI arrest in the first place. (An amazing psychosis. It's not so much that she remembers it differently per se, but that the true story of why we were pulled over in the first place, something she explained to her father, since I was driving his pickup truck at the time, is now "news to her". Nothing can convince her that she's been aware of the fact that she's the reason we were pulled over.

She knows she's the key. And just like her damn soap operas, she sees that as the power to justify massive dishonesty.

I'm only in this for my daughter. If my partner wants to continue to behave the way she is, she will eventually be arrested or get killed in a car wreck. Not much I can do about it. I'll need about seven people for the freaking intervention, and the two people I know would do it if I asked, well, I've asked for enough of my mother, and one of my close friends ... well, my partner thinks everybody I know hates her, so one of the most qualified people I know to do this is essentially out.

It's about five after ten in the morning. She just left to meet a friend at the bar. Which puzzles me, because we're so out of money right now I can't describe it.

Oh, hey, I just thought of a third person I could get to help intervene. But years ago, when I returned to Seattle and she came with me, he apparently took her aside and explained in classic, patient tones that if she f@cked up my life, he'd find her and kill her. Now, everybody involved knows he won't actually harm her. But he won't spare any unkind words in explaining the situation to her. Bottom line is that she will, quite literally, attempt to kill herself in front of a roomful of people if she feels cornered. I must necessarily plan for this in order to prevent it.

Oh, yeah. And she's a gun owner. A smuggled, illegal weapon at that, but she's a gun owner. She once tried lecturing me, and while she told me what kind of person I am, she carefully but casually started stacking up all her ammunition on the dresser as a message.

In the end, I just sort of tune those parts out. No matter what she does, it's my legal obligation to put up with it. Even if she points that gun at me, I can't do anything about it because you simply can't hit a woman. And yes, women know this. And she knows this. If she hits me hard enough, her bruised fist will be cause enough to haul me to jail. That's the way it goes.

So to get by, you just stop paying attention to certain things.

If Mrs. Montgomery remotely approaches this standard, then no, her husband would not necessarily have known the difference, because he would not necessarily have been paying that close of attention.

 

[zanket]

zanket,
You talk about the severity of the crime as if it is some sort of currency scale.
"Well, let's see one murder is less dead people than two..."
It just doesn't work that way for me.

Well, someone does decide those things, so it's a valid question. The question for anyone is: If you were forced to choose which case is more revolting, this one or the Peterson case, which would you choose and why?

Seems to me that people by and large found the Peterson case "shocking," maybe "disgusting," but not so far as "revolting" as in this Stinnett case. Even though Peterson killed the baby too. I'm curious as to why.

 

[Xev]

Bells:
Two female acquaintences of mine - people I see nearly daily - are pregnent. Apparently late term.
I didn't well realize until others told me. Now of course it seems obvious.

I haven't the foggiest notion of what pregnency is like or what pregnent women are like or how obvious pregnency is or how large a woman gets. Childbearing, beyond the obvious "egad! chase any possibility away with injections and prophylactics!" is a mystery to me.

Most men are probably the same way. Hell, a sizable number of women are the same way - I mean after all, people knew all this shit when they lived in villages and stinky hovels and had to know about it. Now you don't learn about pregnency until you decide to become pregnent.....at least for the middle class. Kinda odd, when you think about it.

So yes, it shows premeditation on her part. Let's hope the dysgenic whore is executed - though that's unlikely!. But it doesn't say much about her husband.

As Tiassa illustrates, what man would want to go near such a batshit-insane slut?

-Edit-
zanket:

Well, someone does decide those things, so it's a valid question. The question for anyone is: If you were forced to choose which case is more revolting, this one or the Peterson case, which would you choose and why?

I didn't follow the Peterson case, but what disgusted me about it was not the crime so much as the fact that he was convicted on such scant evidence. I read an article where one of the jurors was quoted saying he felt Peterson was guilty in part because "he didn't look like someone who had lost his wife"

Dear fucking lord.

This is just plain demented. What I find most demented is that it happens on a semi-regular basis.

Now speaking as a woman, with admittedly no experience in childbearing - where in hell did she get the idea to rip another person open and remove

I think what disturbs one most - from a feminist standpoint - is how literally it reduces the woman who was killed into, well, a baby maker.
Or whatever paternalists like to call us.
The fact that the crime was committed by another woman just makes things more disturbing.

But beyond that....there's something a bit off about pregnency. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, to bring new life into the world, to infuse new blood into your race, to sacrifice of oneself so that something more than oneself is created. Yadda yadda - it's still damn creepy to think of having this thing that looks like a bloody chicken-fish parasitising your body for nine months, then being expelled through hours of contractions.

The whole case sounds like something Chris Barnes would think up if he watched CNN for 36 hours straight.

 

[one_raven]

My ex gained 6 pounds with her pregnancy by her 7th month.
She didn't start showing until her 8th.
Her family didn't know she was pregnant until she told them duing her 8th month.
It's not always that obvious.

 

[cardiovascular_tech]

The sad thing to all this is I was a Missouri police officer for 7 years and getting a alert issued is pretty hard now days I know the sheriff had alot of trouble getting this one issued.

 

[Bells]

Tiassa

To the one, this is still possible. To the other, my daughter is two years old, my partner is prone to fits of screaming about how horrible the sex is and always was, and if she decides to claim it's hormones resulting from having been pregnant two years ago, she gets to claim that and all I get to do is hope she goes to see a doctor about it.

In theory. Depends on how crazy she is. Other than that, I don't even notice her haircuts anymore.

Besides, I make a point of trying to not see her body anymore. I don't need to see it. It's not mine to enjoy. She doesn't take care of it. She's the only adult I see on any sort of regular basis. Quite literally, it could be done. All it really requires is some insanity on her part, and the fact that I just don't really care what she does anymore, and would prefer if she just shut up and kept to herself entirely.

Tiassa, no matter how you may feel about your partner and even if she hid a miscarriage from you during its full term, would you not feel a tad iffy if she rang you one day and said 'I'm in this parking lot in another town and I've just given birth, can you please come and pick me up and take me home?... Oh and bring someone with you to drive my car home'...? Would you not ask a few questions? What sane rational individual would not? The first question that a normal person would ask in such a situation would be... why aren't you in a hospital? Or what do you mean take you home... I'm taking you to a hospital. Or even, why didn't you or haven't you called an ambulance? There are so many questions that need to be asked in this situation. Even if you don't notice anything about her anymore, do you not question the circumstances?

Oh, yeah. And she's a gun owner. A smuggled, illegal weapon at that, but she's a gun owner. She once tried lecturing me, and while she told me what kind of person I am, she carefully but casually started stacking up all her ammunition on the dresser as a message.

There's one way to get out of the house and get her out of your lives. Dob her in to the police. When she goes out late at night and you know she's drunk, dob her in annonymously. When she's out of the house, replace her ammunition with blanks. She threatens to kill you, keep a small tape recorder in your pocket and switch it on during one of your fights. Go and see a lawyer about getting custody of your daughter, because she is the one who will be most badly influenced by the mere presence of this woman. Document all of the abuse she commits in a journal. Date and time each one. Contact the police now and tell them, at least then there is a record of your story with them. Tell them she is abusive, keeps an illegal gun in the house, has a child living in that same house. Tell them you are not only scared for your own life, but most importantly the life of your daughter. You have witnesses who have seen her at her worst, bring them in as well.

Oh, hey, I just thought of a third person I could get to help intervene. But years ago, when I returned to Seattle and she came with me, he apparently took her aside and explained in classic, patient tones that if she f@cked up my life, he'd find her and kill her. Now, everybody involved knows he won't actually harm her. But he won't spare any unkind words in explaining the situation to her. Bottom line is that she will, quite literally, attempt to kill herself in front of a roomful of people if she feels cornered. I must necessarily plan for this in order to prevent it.

If you ever do have an intervention, make sure you have gone to the police and advised them of what you plan to do. Get one of them to come along if need be so that they can see that you have done nothing to physically harm her. I'd also look at seeing a psychiatrist before taking such a step and make sure that you can have that psychiatrist present during such an intervention.

In the end, I just sort of tune those parts out. No matter what she does, it's my legal obligation to put up with it. Even if she points that gun at me, I can't do anything about it because you simply can't hit a woman. And yes, women know this. And she knows this. If she hits me hard enough, her bruised fist will be cause enough to haul me to jail. That's the way it goes.

You shouldn't have to hit her, and you shouldn't hit her, just as she should not be violent towards you.

If Mrs. Montgomery remotely approaches this standard, then no, her husband would not necessarily have known the difference, because he would not necessarily have been paying that close of attention.

As I said to you above though. No matter how little attention he may have given her and she'd hidden her miscarriage, some questions would still be asked as to how she came to giving birth in a car park and did not call an ambulance, instead called hubby to tell him to give her a lift home.

Xev

Two female acquaintences of mine - people I see nearly daily - are pregnent. Apparently late term.
I didn't well realize until others told me. Now of course it seems obvious.

One can get away without telling another that they are pregnant. A pregnancy can be hidden up to a certain point, if the other is not observant enough. But to hide a miscarriage and fake a pregnancy is a lot harder. One usually ends up in hospital after a miscarriage. In fact the majority do, as a curette is usually required after a miscarriage to remove the rest of tissue that's remained in the uterus.

I haven't the foggiest notion of what pregnency is like or what pregnent women are like or how obvious pregnency is or how large a woman gets. Childbearing, beyond the obvious "egad! chase any possibility away with injections and prophylactics!" is a mystery to me.

Some women are more obvious than others. Some go insane during their pregnancy and others do not. When I was pregnant long ago, no one knew. I didn't start to show at all until my 6th month. My parents knew, because I'd told them, but if I didn't tell anyone, they didn't guess. I miscarried in my 7th month, but even then, no one would have guessed, aside from thinking I'd gotten a boob job and had put on a little bit of weight. And I hadn't changed at all. My hair was shinier, but that was about it. My moods didn't swing from side to side like a manic pendulum, nor did I become a crazy bitch. The only thing that used to make me feel grumpy was the heartburn I would sometimes get if I ate spicy food.

But my point is that to fake a pregnancy is a lot harder than to hide a pregnancy.

Most men are probably the same way. Hell, a sizable number of women are the same way - I mean after all, people knew all this shit when they lived in villages and stinky hovels and had to know about it. Now you don't learn about pregnency until you decide to become pregnent.....at least for the middle class. Kinda odd, when you think about it.

Yes it is odd. Pregnancy is now something that one simply 'does' for lack of a better word. In the days when we lived in huts in villages, having a baby was something that simply happened and a woman had to know about it. A woman knew when she was 'fertile' and would know when she was pregnant. Now days a woman has no idea unless she goes to a chemist and buys a take home test to find out. We don't know about pregnancy because we choose not to know until we simply have no choice but to learn. I'll admit I had bugger all idea when I became pregnant. I had to buy books about what I should and should not eat while pregnant. I had no idea that pregnant women should not eat anything processed, such as ham or salami for example, because it can harm the baby.

So yes, it shows premeditation on her part. Let's hope the dysgenic whore is executed - though that's unlikely!. But it doesn't say much about her husband.

I agree it does show premeditation on her part. She did not simply see a pregnant woman and think I want that baby and did it impulsively. She gained that girls trust through chatroom discussions. She deceived that poor girl and told her she wanted to buy one of the dogs the mother to be bred, all so she could get close enough to her. She then went there with the full intention of committing a crime that still has my mind reeling. And yes, I think it does not say much at all about her husband. But it leaves a lot of questions about the husband also. Did he know? Did he know she was insane and did not question when she called him and told him she'd just given birth to a baby in a car park and to come and pick her up?

Now speaking as a woman, with admittedly no experience in childbearing - where in hell did she get the idea to rip another person open and remove

That's what I always ask myself when I hear of these cases. What possesses any individual to actually think up something like this. One could say c-sections are done everyday, but this is something completely different. To sit there and think that I need to find a pregnant woman, kill her and then take her baby from her womb. What kind of fucked up individual would actually even think it, much less plan it and then actually do the act.

I think what disturbs one most - from a feminist standpoint - is how literally it reduces the woman who was killed into, well, a baby maker.
Or whatever paternalists like to call us.
The fact that the crime was committed by another woman just makes things more disturbing.

I fully agree. That this was done by a woman disturbs me as well. And looking into these sorts of crimes, the majority of them are committed by women. It astounds me and also makes my skin crawl. This woman wanted a baby. Saw a pregnant woman who had incubated the child long enough, and then just decided to take it from her.

But beyond that....there's something a bit off about pregnency. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, to bring new life into the world, to infuse new blood into your race, to sacrifice of oneself so that something more than oneself is created. Yadda yadda - it's still damn creepy to think of having this thing that looks like a bloody chicken-fish parasitising your body for nine months, then being expelled through hours of contractions.

It is creepy. Even when I was pregnant, I found it creepy sometimes, to think that there was another person inside of me. I actually found it disturbing.

 

[Tiassa]

Source: CNN.com
Link: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/19/missouri.fetus/index.html
Title: "Couple allegedly showed off kidnapped baby"
Date: December 19, 2004

The Montgomerys said they had named the baby Abigail, a local pastor, Mike Wheatley, told CNN. Montgomery told him she had given birth to the child at a Topeka birthing center.

Wheatley said he and others, including Montgomery's husband, Kevin, believed she was pregnant and due in December. Wheatley recounted that he once commented to Lisa Montgomery that she was "kind of small to be having a baby that soon. She said, 'I've always had small babies,' and I just let it go at that" ....

.... The affidavit alleges that Kevin Montgomery told authorities his wife called him shortly after he arrived home from work Thursday, around 5:15 p.m., saying she had gone shopping in Topeka, went into labor and had a baby.

The husband and the couple's two high-school age children drove to Topeka and met Lisa Montgomery in the parking lot of a Long John Silver's restaurant. He, his wife and the child drove home in his pickup truck, and the older children drove his wife's car, a red Toyota Corolla, the affidavit alleges.

A check with the Topeka women's clinic where Montgomery claimed to have given birth revealed no babies were born there Thursday.

CNN.com

Todd Graves, a U.S. Attorney for western Missouri, told CNN that his office has not yet decided whether to seek the death penalty. Graves noted that while the crime was shocking, it is not particularly unusual. His district has achieved death sentences on the same charge twice in the past three years.
____________________

Notes:

CNN.com "Couple allegedly showed off kidnapped baby". December 19, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/19/missouri.fetus/index.html​

 

[Tiassa]

The baby's name is Victoria Jo Stinnett.

You know, normally I welcome a baby to the world with an affectionate joke: "Welcome, little one; it's all downhill from here."

Somehow, that seems inappropriate. Or else a damning indictment of the human character.

• • •​

An interesting discussion of maternal homicide as a general topic has arisen in the wake of this slaying. See:

St. George, Donna. "Researchers Stunned By Scope of Slayings". Washington Post, December 19, 2004; page A21. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10785-2004Dec18.html​