All you're logic is a pointless waste of time

K

Kython13

Registered Senior Member
In reference to religion, all you're supposed intelligence and logic is a pointless waste of time. Why?

If God exists he is omnipotent.
An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
Therefore, God can defy logic.
If God can defy logic, logic cannot explain God.
Therefore God exists beyond the realm of logic.
Why then do we insist on trying to logically explain God?
It is impossible to do.


Earlier this year a thread was posted talking about Napoleon and two worlds with two different results. This thread was based on the idea that God is logically impossible. You are right, not because the idea of God is wrong, but because the idea that logical can be applied to an omnipotent being. As I stated above, an omnipotent being is beyond logic, so logic cannot apply to an omnipotent being. (similarly, the equation for the area of a square cannot be applied to any rectangle, because a square is more that just a rectangle)

This is where the idea of faith comes in. If God's existance cannot be proven, then Christian's believe because of faith. Just as a people has faith in their leaders ability to lead them through the future (there is no proof that the leader can handle the future because the future is unknown, therefore people must have faith in the leader's ability), so Christians have faith in the existance of God. You ask us to prove God exists, I ask you to believe God exists. After all, if we are wrong and God doesn't exist, is any harm truly done in trying to find a purpose for life instead of stumbling on into blind existance?
 
Kython,

An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
Click to expand...
Define anything and omnipotent? For example could God create a universe that was not created by a god and where God did not exist? This is what it means to defy logic. To defy logic means to invoke nonsense.

Therefore, God can defy logic.
Click to expand...
No he can’t. The result would be chaotic nonsense. It is like saying true=false.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Kython,

No he can’t. The result would be chaotic nonsense. It is like saying true=false.
Click to expand...

Cris,
Now the world seems to be exactly the same, chaotic nonsense.. like, saying God is not there..! or blaming him for the chaotic design..!
 
Last edited:
Good Post Kython 13

Just to add,

Another problem with the Atheists is that they think of god using their own tools as if god is comparable to them.. They think linearly or in a plane and forget that things and thoughts are not linear, they are circular.

And yes Cris, True=False is correct, why do you have a problem with such a concept...It is also circulat. We all know that there is no exact equation to describe the sphere, and so there is no way to describe with any detail the line where true stops and false starts, so for some time, true and false could overlap.
 
Everno,

Now the world seems to be exactly the same, chaotic nonsense.. like, saying God is not there..! or blaming him for the chaotic design..!
Click to expand...
So are you suggesting that the perceived chaos in the world suggests proof for the non-existence of God?

I don’t see that the world is chaotic. Everything appears to obey the laws of physics, and the many poor decisions of humans appear to be fully consistent with inadequate knowledge and an evolutionary process towards greater understanding and the ever increasing ability to manipulate our own environment and create order.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Everno,

So are you suggesting that the perceived chaos in the world suggests proof for the non-existence of God?

I don’t see that the world is chaotic. Everything appears to obey the laws of physics, and the many poor decisions of humans appear to be fully consistent with inadequate knowledge and an evolutionary process towards greater understanding and the ever increasing ability to manipulate our own environment and create order.
Click to expand...


Kython13 : Therefore, God can defy logic.

Cris : No he can’t. The result would be chaotic nonsense. It is like saying true=false.

Me : Now the world seems to be exactly the same, chaotic nonsense.. like, saying God is not there..! or blaming him for the chaotic design..!

_____________________________

I'm just suggesting God defies logic. The moment you introduce the fact "God exists and defies logic" , you endup in chaotic nonsense cuz your knowledge was built on the premises that there is no (or no need for) God and everything follows your logic.
 
Hef,

Another problem with the Atheists is that they think of god using their own tools as if god is comparable to them.
Click to expand...
For the actions of a god to make sense such a being must be logical. The opposite is nonsense. Logic is independent of who uses it.

They think linearly or in a plane and forget that things and thoughts are not linear, they are circular.
Click to expand...
That is gibberish.

True=False is correct, why do you have a problem with such a concept.
Click to expand...
Because that is total gibberish.

so for some time, true and false could overlap.
Click to expand...
You are joking, right?
 
Therefore, God can defy logic.
--------------
No he can’t. The result would be chaotic nonsense. It is like saying true=false

==============

In the rhelm of spiritual truth there is such a law in existance.
It is the law of opposites.
Up IS down, more IS less, there is a way which appears right to a man....(in his logic, his own ability to reason), but the ends thereof are death.
He that would be great, must first be a servant.
He who would save his life, shall lose it.

The foolishness of God is far greater than the wisdom of men.
God has chosen the things which are not to bring to nought the things which are.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence"

Psalms 37:11 - But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
 
Last edited:
Kython13,

If God exists he is omnipotent.
An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
Therefore, God can defy logic.
If God can defy logic, logic cannot explain God.
Therefore God exists beyond the realm of logic.
Why then do we insist on trying to logically explain God?
It is impossible to do.
Click to expand...

This is totally silly. Your using logic to say that it's impossible for god to be explained logically? This is like trying to explain that it's wrong to kill and go out and murdering 5 people to prove it. Your arguement makes completely no sense.

If you still think your arguement is valid, what's wrong with this arguement...

1) If God exists he is omnipotent.
2) An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
3) Therefore, God can defy faith.
4) If God can defy faith, faith cannot explain God.
5) Therefore God exists beyond the realm of faith.
6) Why then do we insist on trying to use faith to explain God?
7) It is impossible to do.

Conclusion your arguement is as invalid as mine.

You ask us to prove God exists, I ask you to believe God exists. After all, if we are wrong and God doesn't exist, is any harm truly done in trying to find a purpose for life instead of stumbling on into blind existance?
Click to expand...

Perhaps God doesn't want people to blindly believe in his existance? Blind faith can be a very dangerous thing.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Hef,

For the actions of a god to make sense such a being must be logical. The opposite is nonsense. Logic is independent of who uses it. You are joking, right?
Click to expand...

You are absolutely wrong and limited here. You are comparing apples and oranges at best. To understand god within the scope of our logic is to say that god is a human. A tiny example. It is considered logical for humans to walk earth, it's illogical for them to fly with merely bird wings cut and pasted onto them.
Or it's logical for a shark to detect it's prey and catch it with great deal of accuracy without employing smell, sight, touch, or hearing, and just jusing sensing electromagnatic wave. It's illogical to say that men have that sixth sense and can use it efficiently to catch things

So who are we to know what god is capable or not of and what is the criteria of behavior of god.

By the way, for true and false to overlap, it's not gibbrish at all. It's very scientific...Maybe not in the limited stupid computer world invented by man...but if you open your mind a bit and look at something like storm formation, earthquakes, or volcanoes, you'll see that the concept of discrete true and false is nonesense. Things develop all the time, peak, and then recede over time. True and false don't exist in nature, only in the man's limited definition of things.
 
The argument between athiests and the devout will continue until the Second Coming or something like that(perhaps even beyond). Even then there will be religious people. Arguing about it is pointless. While an individual may change his mind, the philosophies will argue, most likely forever.

To argue though, reasoning that god is perfect, omnisentient, and omnipotent renders his logic perfect, while your mind is limited and affected by emotions, making your logic less than perfect. Of course, this applies to me too.
 
The argument between athiests and the devout will continue until the Second Coming or something like that(perhaps even beyond).

===============

Interesting concept...this "second coming".
Just what exactly do you believe the second coming will be...?
You know the Jews had it all "figured out" how He was to come the first time.....
But He came in a way that was so simple, yet exactly in the scriptures........ that they missed it.

What makes you think it will be any different for the Gentiles this time during thier "day of visitation".
He will come so simple, but yet according to the scriptures.....all but the very elect of God will miss it.

Yes, by their logic and reason the big denominational "christian" churches of today think they have it all figured out.....
The very nature of God proclaims they don't.
It is "slipping" right through thier fingers even now.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Kython13
You ask us to prove God exists, I ask you to believe God exists. After all, if we are wrong and God doesn't exist, is any harm truly done in trying to find a purpose for life instead of stumbling on into blind existance?
Click to expand...
Perhaps you need a God to provide meaning and purpose in your life, but some people can find real meaning and real purpose in their lives without having to attribute them to an imaginary friend. And if you are wrong and God doesn't exist, I will be very glad that I didn't waste my life believing such silly things.
 
Hef,

.. for true and false to overlap, it's not gibberish at all. It's very scientific...
Click to expand...
Give me an example where ‘A’ and ‘NOT A’ are the same thing. You can’t, it is an impossibility that even a god cannot defy.

This is known as the 3rd law of logic, the law of contradiction. It is self evident and is necessarily true for anyone, anything, and everything.
 
Originally posted by Kython13
If God exists he is omnipotent.
An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
Therefore, God can defy logic.
If God can defy logic, logic cannot explain God.
Therefore God exists beyond the realm of logic.
Why then do we insist on trying to logically explain God?
It is impossible to do.
Click to expand...
Your syllogism can go another route. For if God can do anything, he can choose not to defy logic.
 
Kython13

If God exists he is omnipotent.
Click to expand...

At least by most definitions of 'God'.

An omnipotent god is capable of anything.
Click to expand...

Yup.

Therefore, God can defy logic.
Click to expand...

Yup.

If God can defy logic, logic cannot explain God.
Click to expand...

You were doing so good up until this point. First define what you
mean by 'explain God'. There will be more coming once this
is anwered.

Therefore God exists beyond the realm of logic.
Click to expand...

What the heck is the 'realm of logic'?

Why then do we insist on trying to logically explain God?
Click to expand...

Probably because you fear an eternity of suffering in 'Hell',
yet common sense tells you that living a life of acceptance
without proof is a great way to waste a perfectly good brain.
 
Last edited:
Devil's Advocate

Probably because you fear an eternity of suffering in 'Hell',
yet common sense tells you that living a life of acceptance without proof is a great way to waste a perfectly good brain.
Click to expand...
Science is no different. Are there not exceptions, theories, assumptions, guesses, and lack of proofs accepted? Yet when a Theistic theory is proposed, exceptions, theories, assumptions, guesses, and lack of proofs are unacceptable.
 
Re: Devil's Advocate

Originally posted by havalina
... when a Theistic theory is proposed, exceptions, theories, assumptions, guesses, and lack of proofs are unacceptable.
Click to expand...
When science speaks of 'theory', it's referring to testable explanations. This is far different from the vernacular use, where the term 'theory' is equivalent to the term 'speculation. Mixing the two is uninformed, sloppy, or disingenuous.

I know of no "Theistic [scientific] theory".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top