Alien Abductions

[sderenzi]

It seems logical but your viewpoint is also silly. If you were not to undergo hypnosis yet recall interaction with an alien species that seems intent on manipulating you what would you call that? From what I gather not all cases of abduction reports were remembered, some actually were aware already. David Jacobs has mentioned that in the inital phase of the abductions almost all of them occured while the people were conscious and not sleeping.

This is somewhat strange, but when faced with reasonable clues we can glimpse why it may be so. The first abductions would've been a point to gather information about us, later on when the program began they'd need to wipe all memory of it because the level of direct contact would lead people to question it's purpose.

From what I see there are some reasons for the abduction phenomena to be BS, but if you were to ignore them it seems to follow a somewhat logical pattern of development. Thus begs the question, what if you're wrong? That would certainly be a bad thing for humanity.

 

[heliocentric]

Abduction isn't one of those things - it's a belief. A crap, half baked sci-fi idea perpetuated by amateurs who know absolutely noting at all but have a theory...

And by golly, that's good enough for them.

You seem to have invested just as much energy into your non-belief of alien abductions as people who believe in them.

I think youre putting wayyy too much stock in your belief that abductions couldnt ever possibly happen to approach this topic rationality anymore.
I honestly think once people start building incredibly complex frameworks of provability or non-provablity they should just step away.
Youre reaching the point where youre far more concerned with protecting your hard-worked for ideas that have taken so long to erect than you are with the truth.
Ultimately your 'its all in the mind' theory is no more factual than those who theorise that it isnt atall, you have no greater claim to the truth than anyone else.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Good work, Mr Anonymous, I needn't chime in other than to say I completely agree with your sane and considered viewpoint. Carry on!

Why, thank you Mr Phlogistician. Don't mind if I do...

It seems logical but your viewpoint is also silly. If you were not to undergo hypnosis yet recall interaction with an alien species that seems intent on manipulating you what would you call that?

In an nutshell? I'd call it bullshit. Presumably you'd call it fact...

Why the difference between answers? Because you, as a person, believe such stories to be tenable - you view the Universe as being vast, full of possibilities. You view the likelihood of intelligent alien life existing out there somewhere as being hardly at all beyond question. You further that with the assumption, if such is likely the case and intelligent life does exist outside the confines of the planet it must therefore follow that some, if not all, of said species could indeed be thousands of years more advanced than our own....

Please, do stop me if I'm at all off the mark here.

You view UFO's as being evidence of these exact such beings - alien, technologically far in advance of ourselves. It therefore follows that, in being witnessed here in the vicinity of this particular neck of the woods, that in being here at all these beings must have some particular purpose firmly at the forefront of their big, squishy alien minds.

After all, the likelihood of an advanced race travelling light years across the galaxy just to flash the odd commercial airliner or else scare the b'jesus out of old farmer Pedro out in the fields on his John Deer late at night - sounds pretty thin by anyones standards, doesn't it?

So, obviously. These aliens have a purpose. They're here for a reason. They don't appear to have formally introduced themselves, at least as far as the authorities seem concerned - Yet people keep seeing UFO's and that lack of official recognition and acknowledgement....

Kinnda seems suspicious all of itself, don't you think?

So, lets recap what we know here. We know there are UFO's. We know that these things are not of this world, but the product of a civilisation far in advance of our own. Obviously, they must be otherwise how could these things have possibly gotten all the way from where they originate from to here? The authorities can't possibly not know of their existence. Everyone knows there are aliens - yet the Government seems keen to cover up the facts. An attempt to conceal in order to prevent panic? Or perhaps something more sinsister...?

What about these stories about alien abduction - how does this all fit in with what we know so far?

Perhaps they're just curious. Perhaps they only want to know how we tick, after all, our scientists poke and prod and do all manner of things to various creatures living on this, our own world. Surly it's logical to assume at least that an alien species would be no different from us in this regard.

And so we get a glimpse at what's going on here. A glimmer of a notion at anyrate. Given that we know aliens are coming to this world and that we know people have been taken against their will by them - not just taken, but being subjected to various forms of medical procedures no less - it's pretty obvious, based on the evidence placed before us that something actually quite disturbing may be going on here. After all, from what people relay of their experiences at the hands of these creatures human beings appear to be being treated as little more than mere animals.

Strapped down, held captive, needles stuck in them, things taken out of their bodies, tracking devices put into their bodies so as they can be monitored and picked up again later after release....

Based on what we know about the situation as it appears to stand, how can one possibly even consider dismissing the sheer volume of evidence presented - it doesn't make a single scrap of sense...

Would that be roughly the tenor of how the logic basically goes, sderenzi?

For expediencies sake, I've cut things down to the bone pretty much, but if I've in anyway represented the case for alien abduction in anyway poorly, quote the offending passage and put me straight, because here is where I offer the counter point - and I do it with just one simple sentence.

The use of the phrase "based on what we know..."

What we actually know about aliens is jack shit. And that is a simple, obvious fact.

What you presume and take to be knowledge and fact is just simply your awareness of varies stories told to you by people you've actually never in your life met nor likely will.

In the case for alien abduction, above, there's not a single scrap of either fact or indeed evidence at all been supplied and yet, if your an honest man, as you were reading you were nodding in agreement as your eyes took in the page - not because it contains any fact, not because it proffers any evidence - simply and wholly because it appeared to be saying and considering exactly the sort of logical progression you yourself want to hear going in the sort of direction you yourself favour such reasoning to go in.

Have you any idea exactly when the first notions of alien abduction scenarios started filtering into American popular culture? and by notions, I don't just mean science fiction stories - I mean first hand accounts written by eyewitnesses given as their own testimony.

With Betty and Barney Hill, do y'think? No. That farmer chap that came before them in the late 50's? Wrong again. Sometime between then and the Kenneth Arnold "Flying Saucer" sighting which sparked off the whole modern day concept of UFO's and grey aliens shortly thereafter?

Actually, no. Before that. Before the term Flying Saucer has ever been invented, throughout the years 1945-1949 (doubly so during the later half of 1947) the very first accounts of ordinary people being taken and experimented upon by aggressive, hostile, scientifically advanced aliens first found their way into print within the Letters to the Editors pages of the, then, popular science fiction magazine Astounding Tales.

Google the terms: Richard Shaver, Ray Palmer, The Shaver Mysteries. You want documented, historical facts on the subject of alien abduction. These are the ones you'll rarely see as being even acknowledge as having happened at any of your more usual "research" haunts.

Especially those dealing with ET.

In 1945 Astounding Tales first started serialising a so-called "true" story, in fictionalised form, of the so-called true accounts of a man by the name of Richard Shaver documenting his experiences of a race of hostile, technologically advanced subterranean lifeforms known only as The Deros. Now, this story was published as a work of fiction, in fact the magazines editor himself had to ghost write the thing as such personally because the original manuscript was so awful his deputy editor had, on first reading, initially thrown the thing in the bin. Not just because it was illegibly written but because it's author hadn't originally sent it to the magazine as a work of fiction at all but as a letter to be published in the Letters To The Editor's page - it's author, Richard Shaver, was that off his trolley.

Nevertheless Astounding Tales editor, Ray Palmer, decided to doll the thing up and run it as a feature. The next thing the magazine editor knew they were getting letters in from otherwise perfectly ordinary Americans, thanking the magazine for publishing the piece in question and wanting to relay their own personal experiences of this exact same evil, insidious species, the Deros.

The Shaver Mysteries, as they were to become known, were an immediate and long running hit, more or less taking over the magazine as it stood from the very get-go.

Richard Shaver was a paranoid schizophrenic - perfectly harmless, but nuttier than a biscuit. Completely possessed by his delusional paranoia he compulsively wrote down his "experiences" by the bushel - and Ray Palmer published the lot. With each successive edition more and more letters would flood into the office, people sharing their experiences of events similar to those they had read, others offering their theories and personal insights into the nature of the mystery surrounding the Deros. As time went by the mythos grew, extraterrestrials routinely were pulled into the mix, stories of abductions and abominable experimentation were told and shared with other readers of similar experience...

Non of it actually happened. Couldn't have. Every single word of the Shaver Mysteries was completely made up.

Yet otherwise ordinary, descent, hardworking American citizens held down regular, respectable jobs by day and at night elected to voluntarily share their insights and experiences of these total fantasies as if they really had happened to them and what they were writing to the Editor about had actually happened to them.

By the time the first actual Flying Saucer flap hit the headlines, following the Kenneth Arnold sighting back in '47, Ray Palmer's was a name central to an ongoing belief that this world was already in mortal peril from forces beyond this earth - greater than us, more advanced, ruthless. So known was he infact that within days of the first Flying Saucer story hitting the headlines he became equally associated with those claiming to have insight and knowledge concerning what these so-called Saucer Men (as our alien friends were originally called) were doing here and what their possible motives must be...

Abduction and experimentation on helpless, unwilling Human subjects is not at all the "modern day" phenomena UFO nuts like to make out it is - themes common in modern day alien abduction stories found their first form of expression before anyone even knew what a Flying Saucer was, let alone what one was supposed to be.

Yet people were talking about them and expressing their concerns, their fears, what the implications of these "facts" meant for the future of mankind...

Why, actually, pretty much exactly the same sort of lopsided reasoning and half baked conjecture you yourself were using in your last responce... All, "but what if's" and bugger all in between. The phenomena surrounding The Shaver Mystery's are documented, historical fact. Published, printed. Ignored by the Alien Abduction brigade - how can so many people be making these things up, they rhetorically trot.

You asked the question: "If you were not to undergo hypnosis yet recall interaction with an alien species that seems intent on manipulating you what would you call that?"

And you know this actually happens because you've seen it with your own eyes? Experienced it first hand for your self? Or someone told you it happened and you believe it because you choose to?

Everyone who steps up to the UFO plate is forever asking the question why when it comes to thinking about subjects like aliens and abduction - but the question they never ask themselves is why do they choose to believe the things the elect to believe in in the first place.

Why does a person like me not believe for one second the fare someone such as yourself seems more than happy to ponder on all the live long day, you may wonder in amazement?

Because I can read.

Ultimately your 'its all in the mind' theory is no more factual than those who theorise that it isnt atall, you have no greater claim to the truth than anyone else.

Very well then: here is a list of all the actually known facts regarding aliens and alien abduction that can be established as such to date:

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:​

Please, by all possible means, do discuss.

 

[heliocentric]

Youre straw-manning all over the place, youre trying to brush off the entire field of hypnosis as a crude parlor game and youre doing the same when any other data points in the direction that you dont want it to. Youre not making yourself appear atall even-handed or truely skeptical in all this man.

In fact youre comming off as obbsessive and one-sided as the UFO believers.
The whole problem with the way your approaching this topic is ironically the same problem with the way ufo believers approach this topic.
Youre absolutely certain that aliens DONT exist, youve taken it way beyond 'i dont see any evidence therefore i see no reason to believe' and gone into the realms of ... 'they cant/musnt/shouldnt exist!'.
Its absolutely no different from someone believing that aliens MUST exist, youre assuming to know way beyond what you actually do know and instead serving what you simply want to be true.

You can call bullshit on people claiming to be abducted all you want but the bottom line is you dont know the truth of what theyve experienced anymore than i do.
Theyre claiming something pretty fantastic sure, but certainly nothing that stretches the laws of physics most of the time. Its entirely possible that people are being abducted, aliens comming to earth snatching people up into space crafts is certainly not beyond the boundries of something that could happen no matter how weird it might seem.
Is that enough in itself to believe that it *is* happening? of course not, but theres certainly no where near enough to go on to conclude that these things definitely arnt happening.
If i was you id just leave the topic be and come back to it maybe in 3 or 4 years time, youve obviously constructed a very well rehearsed argument to support your unshakable belief that aliens could never visit this planet. And while is it a pretty solid one and i can see how you think it works pretty well i personally think youre way too deep into it at this point to really see whats going on. I think your judgement has become extremely clouded.
But thats just my opinion im sure you'll disagree, which is fine

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Youre absolutely certain that aliens DONT exist....

Mmmm.... An interesting and laudably impartial approach. You accuse me, on the one hand, of "straw-manning" it - yet on the other you back your assertion up with the above statement. A presumption on your part, entirely, not in the slightest born out by any form of actual fact in the slightest.

I've at no point stated any such certainty regarding the non existence of extraterrestrials.

Previous to this you stated, regarding my reply to sderenzi proceeding this last that:

Ultimately your 'its all in the mind' theory is no more factual than those who theorise that it isnt atall,

Apparently oblivious to the fact I proffered first hand observation of actual events and qualified those observations with first hand personal research into the matter of what hypnotism and hypnotic regression add up to in practice. Even though it's there clearly written in black and white.

Equally, you seem to take some degree of uxbridge concerning the detail I'm prepared to go into when discussing a subject, a sign of "irrationality" as you put it....

Perish the thought the expression pot calling the kettle black, much? should ever crop up in mere passing.

Now. In my last I offered you the opportunity to discuss the known facts that have been established regarding this subject concerning the matter of either extraterrestrials, alien abduction or both in conjunction.

Instead, here you go, wasting my eyesight and someone else bandwidth on squat all of any use except vent your own assbug and accuse everyone else of the smell.

Either shit or get off the pot. Really doesn't get any simpler than that now, do it?

 

[heliocentric]

Mmmm.... An interesting and laudably impartial approach. You accuse me, on the one hand, of "straw-manning" it - yet on the other you back your assertion up with the above statement. A presumption on your part, entirely, not in the slightest born out by any form of actual fact in the slightest.

I've at no point stated any such certainty regarding the non existence of extraterrestrials. [/b]

Well id tend to disagree, youve been pretty clear to state that even to consider the idea of abduction or aliens visiting us atall is laughable. You seem entirely sure of their non-existance or at the least that they defintely arnt anywhere near us.
I dont think thats straw-manning im just relating exacting what i see in everything youve said.
If anything the way you handled sderenzi was strawmanning, i mean the guy is just entertaining the possiblities either way, but youve got him pegged as a 'believer' and as someone who is stating ideas as fact, which from what ive read he isnt atall.

Now. In my last I offered you the opportunity to discuss the known facts that have been established regarding this subject concerning the matter of either extraterrestrials, alien abduction or both in conjunction.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

But that is what we're doing anyway isnt it? I guess to go into more detail...
People have claimed to be abducted, thats a known fact, some have had memory blackouts/missing time in relation to the events and recalled alien/abudction encounters during regression.
People have claimed to have been abducted in a variety of settings, cars, at home, in bed, outdoors. People have claimed to have been abducted alone and also with others. Implants have been recovred from abductees. People relate abduction experiences offen to saucer shaped disk-like craft which we can observe and verify to be a known type of vehicle in existance via photographic and video evidence.
I guess where you want to take all that is up to you..

 

[Mr Anonymous]

People have claimed to be abducted, thats a known fact....

Well, precisely, old chap. Exactly as you yourself put it. People have claimed to have been abducted, that is indeed a known fact regarding the matter - the only known fact that can be in anyway entirely established and qualified in as being known about the matter at all.

Period.

That's it as far as actual facts go.

People. Making claims. My point is, and has remained so throughout this entire discussion to date, that whatever normal critical faculties people are prepared to apply to extraordinary claims regarding any other subject - for whatever reason those self same people seem predisposed to switching that exact same off when it comes to the matter of alien and aliens abduction.

The fact that during the early 1940's people were making exactly similar and no less extraordinary claims regarding a completely fictional phenomena precipitated by the publication of The Shaver Mysteries (as relayed to sderenzi previously above) forms not the slightest impediment to that position as stated. Quite the contrary. It's an historically documented fact that, given the opportunity, a certain proportion of people not only are prepared to, but actually do, spout complete fantasy based upon a received storyline as if actual truth and that, in response, certain others become predisposed to entertain such fantasy as if credible providing debate upon the matter remains in anyway viable.

The so-called "modern day" phenomenon of alien abduction remains in no way either unprecedented nor unrelated to this previous, well documented and well studied sociological example - it is The Shaver Mysteries - paranoid, delusional fantasy accepted as truth and peddled as such by those predisposed to consciously choose to wish to entertain the notion.

Outside of the prelude of a marginally interesting sociological study the entire bulk of what actual physical impact the subject of alien abduction has upon the real world remains absolutely zero.

There genuinely isn't any physical evidence that the phenomena has ever happened, outside the claim that it does and such evidence exists. It remains a single, simple fact - not one artefact claimed to be extraterrestrial in origin and removed from a human body has ever been established as such anywhere outside the domain of UFO/Alien belief. Elaborate conspiracy theories and hostile accusations of denial remain the only support mechanisms by which belief in such phenomena as fact remain in anyway in evidence to support such claims.

Again, not fact in itself simply claims that such facts exist. Claimed to be corroborated - but by whom?

People with a belief in aliens and alien abduction.

In choosing to view both the concept and phenomena of alien abduction as being in someway either unique or without precident in historical context - that remains a choice of the individual. Given the simple fact that such exactly similar debate surrounding exactly the same idea's and concerns as contained within the various beliefs and so-called experiences of aliens and alien abduction predates the very first so-called alien abduction experiences by several decades and was precipitated by what remains undeniably fictionalised fantasy - I elect to let the facts of the matter speak eminently clearly for themselves.

The facts surrounding the subject of alien abduction are exactly those same facts which surrounded those demonstrated by the publication of The Shaver Mysteries, getting on for some 70 years ago. People chose to indulge in fantasy and make it all up as they went along. The Shaver Mysteries are the more modern day alien abduction phenomena.

That one may choose to simply either brush off or ignore entirely remains completely down to ones own mind set.

You make the claim that in your thinking you remain open minded. Yet in the following sentence you disclose your precise disposition in complete contrast to that which you state:

People relate abduction experiences offen to saucer shaped disk-like craft which we can observe and verify to be a known type of vehicle in existance via photographic and video evidence.

Your words, your sentence. In 31 one words you sum up the actual facts regarding this matter more succinctly than I'm ever likely to be able, more's the pity.

Here you make the distinct cross-connection, retroactively, between UFO's, Aliens and alien abduction with no discriminatory faculties between these three separate concepts being demonstrated whatsoever. You presume the presence of UFO's dictates extraterrestrial beings - you take what is in both practice and actual fact pure supposition and equate aliens to the practice of aliens abducting humans without so much as a pause in-between - and by these means you think to suggest questionable my particular methods of reaching a conclusion.

I find such process and thinking extraordinary.

Helio, old chap. If you want to discern the truth regarding anything. First, last and always - learn to pay attention....

A

 

[heliocentric]

Well, precisely, old chap. Exactly as you yourself put it. People have claimed to have been abducted, that is indeed a known fact regarding the matter - the only known fact that can be in anyway entirely established and qualified in as being known about the matter at all.

Period.

That's it as far as actual facts go.

No youre straw manning again, as i said the strange craft using esoteric means of travel at the centre of abduction stories are something that most definitely exist, thats a fact. We can conclude that even if people are making up comming into contact with these craft themselves, they do exist regardless.
It also fact that implanted bodies have been removed from abductees containing metals which can only be correlated with those found in extraterrestrial bodies (such as meteorites) from what i remember these small pellet like objects have also been found to be covered with a thin organic membrane impossible to cut using a scalpel.
The uber-skeptics i understand call foul play in relation to these objects, i presume they believe people are creating them and passing them off as implants to serve some kind of pro-ufo agenda. They could be right i dont know.

People. Making claims. My point is, and has remained so throughout this entire discussion to date, that whatever normal critical faculties people are prepared to apply to extraordinary claims regarding any other subject - for whatever reason those self same people seem predisposed to switching that exact same off when it comes to the matter of alien and aliens abduction.

Im not sure who you mean exactly when you say that, ive certainly not seen anyone in this thread (so far) leaping to any conclusions like that.

The fact that during the early 1940's people were making exactly similar and no less extraordinary claims regarding a completely fictional phenomena precipitated by the publication of The Shaver Mysteries (as relayed to sderenzi previously above) forms not the slightest impediment to that position as stated. Quite the contrary. It's an historically documented fact that, given the opportunity, a certain proportion of people not only are prepared to, but actually do, spout complete fantasy based upon a received storyline as if actual truth and that, in response, certain others become predisposed to entertain such fantasy as if credible providing debate upon the matter remains in anyway viable.

I think youre making bold assumptions again, how do you know fictional alien encounters wernt based on actual 'experienced' encounters? it could be working the other way round entirely for all you know. All it take is an author to hear about something that happened to someone, or prehaps one of his friends relating a story to him for him to get an idea for his latest work.
Another possiblity might be these works of fiction gave people a framework in which to properly understand these experiences, before which they might have been inclined to relate it as a religious experience 'being swept away by angels' instead. I think theres alot of possible explainations to explore here.

Outside of the prelude of a marginally interesting sociological study the entire bulk of what actual physical impact the subject of alien abduction has upon the real world remains absolutely zero.

Not true in any way shape or form, some peoples lives are utterally ruined by it, the impact for some is huge, ive seen whole families whove claimed to be abducted break down in tears. The general feeling seems to be 'we just want to know what the hell happened to us, to find out what happened and for people not to call us crazy in the process'. Seems completely reasonable to me.

There genuinely isn't any physical evidence that the phenomena has ever happened

Not really true there is physical evidence as i described earlier, although theres a hot bed of debate as to the authenticity of it.

In choosing to view both the concept and phenomena of alien abduction as being in someway either unique or without precident in historical context - that remains a choice of the individual. Given the simple fact that such exactly similar debate surrounding exactly the same idea's and concerns as contained within the various beliefs and so-called experiences of aliens and alien abduction predates the very first so-called alien abduction experiences by several decades and was precipitated by what remains undeniably fictionalised fantasy - I elect to let the facts of the matter speak eminently clearly for themselves.

I dont think ufo ficition proves anything either way to be honest, i dont think it clearly points in any direction.
People could be using early ufo fiction to form their experiences, then again the concept that beings could travel to a planet could be have mearly helped people to correctly interpret their experiences. Why would someone claim to have been snatched by an alien before even knowing what an alien was? much more likely theyd call it something quasi-religious or spiritual in nature.

You make the claim that in your thinking you remain open minded. Yet in the following sentence you disclose your precise disposition in complete contrast to that which you state:

Your words, your sentence. In 31 one words you sum up the actual facts regarding this matter more succinctly than I'm ever likely to be able, more's the pity.

Here you make the distinct cross-connection, retroactively, between UFO's, Aliens and alien abduction with no discriminatory faculties between these three separate concepts being demonstrated whatsoever. You presume the presence of UFO's dictates extraterrestrial beings

- you take what is in both practice and actual fact pure supposition and equate aliens to the practice of aliens abducting humans without so much as a pause in-between - and by these means you think to suggest questionable my particular methods of reaching a conclusion.

I find such process and thinking extraordinary.

Nope thats your assumption entirely, if you re-read what i wrote i said that the craft people refer to in abduction cases can be verified because we know they exist. I did not say anywhere in that paragraph that aliens can be verified to exist, they cant.
I cant really work out how youve made such a huge leap of conclusion there to be honest. From what i remember we were simply sorting out what we can establish as fact from what we cant. I concluded that we can establish saucer shaped craft to exist, and you read that as me believing in aliens, to me THATS extraordinary!
I think youd rather argue with your self-created ufo-nut boogey man than address anything im actually saying. Theres no other explaination for taking a sentence so far outside of its obvious and unambigous meaning.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I think youd rather argue with your self-created ufo-nut boogey man than address anything im actually saying....

In the immortal words of Alice krige to Brent Spiner in Start Trek First Contact: "You seek to find disparity where none exists."

Y'know what I find particularly irksome about this sort of business, aside from the tedious, predictable routine of it all? - it's the essential pointlessness of the entire endeavour with a co-respondent such as yourself: The typicality of trotting out the accusation of The Straw Man Argument over and over as if it actually means anything definitive, the recourse to counter with supposition posited as if established as fact, the automatic recourse when faced with anything even moderately taxing to want to break it down into tiny, individual little snips and address each and every little one in the attempt to convey the impression one is actually mounting a spirited, cogent response - but actually saying nothing at all of even the slightest of sense...

And yet, and this we both know for actual truth because you know this because you're you and I know this because I've been around longer than God - you, as a person, don't actually believe for one single, solitary second that there's anything in the slightest at all true regarding this subject.

UFO's, per say. That's something you probably genuinely do keep an open mind about - but you don't believe for one second that there's actually any truth at all to the whole aliens/alien abduction debate. Aliens, persay... Maybe, possibly, who can tell...?

But the Alien Abduction thing, you know it's for the birds. And the reason I know that is because you do.

You're not in the slightest concerned about the notion of aliens abducting people - it's apocryphal bollocks, you more than merely suspect it, you're just concerned that, in stumbling across my original responses to sderenzi, here you have found yet again evidence of some rampant armchair UFO sceptic simply putting down possibilities because they can and it remains their pleasure to do so...

Big, bad, bullying UFO sceptic, straw-man arguements... blah-bliddy-blah, needs to be taken down a peg or two.

If you actually possessed the simple ability to be able to debate worth spit, perhaps they'd be some actual challenge in the exercise - but if this is really all you've got to offer, go home.

I'm not in the slightest interested.

Unlike you I actually am interested in the subject, genuinely. Enough to not simply accept things at face value - to physically get up off my arse and actually dig into it, check things out, investigate. Find out. Research. Y'know why? Because I'm actually interested in finding out, one way or the other.

I don't give a tin shit what other people merely think, I simply want to know.

Now, if you're responses given to date remain indicative of how you, personally, choose to go about that process - I wish you all the best with, really I do. But out of the two of us here I'll wager, with little uncertainty regarding the outcome, that you're not the jackass who, for his sins and enduringly endearing stupidity, actually publishes on these exact sorts of subjects. I'll wager equally you've neither been engaged full time in a capacity of having to deal with and wade through all this crap because, jackass only as such a person could possibly be, you've ever been in anyway dumb enough to turn up for an interview for such a position and actually say yes when offered the job...

Not that I'm questioning you're ability to set the VCR correctly to tape such unimpeachable sources of vital, challenging and informative documentary style reportage that crops up regularly during "Alien Weekend" on the sci-fi channel you understand - hell, kudos to any man woman or child than can figure out the remote on any domestic electronic device is what I say.

But as far as their being UFO nutters around here, Helio' - I am the genuine, one of a kind article. The living, original, accept-no-substitutes, personification of exactly what it is you seem so amusingly certain my only purpose in partaking in this forum is to seek out and put down.

I am the ubiquitous UFO nut, Helio'. And as far as that particular crown goes, I'm quite by far without equal. And twenty years from now I'll likely be still doing the very same.

And I'm telling you here for nothing - you got jack.

Like I said the first time around, it helps awfully if one simply learns to first pay attention.... And a little bit of actual research on a subject pays dividends in the end.

Till you can figure out how to do that,

Toodles,

A

 

[heliocentric]

If you truely believe that youve evolved beyond traditional forum debate to the point where you can do away with form and convention altogether and instead write A4 sized eccentric diatribes then back the fuck away from the computer. Youre obviously sick and tired of it all and just resorting to over the top ad hominem attacks out of nothing but boredom.
If youre done with the medium then be done with it man.

If youve given up and would rather keep all your beliefs, opinions, and feelings on this subject wrapped up inside where noone can question them fine. But dont come on here bragging and beating your chest like noone has shit to say to you, and then retreat at the first sign of someone actually having an argument.

This is the exact kind of pompous bullshit makes me embarrsed to male sometimes.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Mmmmm, why yes. Painstaking, diligent, thoughtful and wholly on topic to boot. My word, up against so formidable a debating opponent - I'd be foolish to consider pressing my case any further.

Besides, repetition. Bores even me.

Thanks nevertheless though for taking the time out in proving my point.

Chowder

A

 

[heliocentric]

Dont get mad because you got called out, it happens to everyone.
Pm me anytime you fancy an exchange of ideas rather than a playground spat.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

I have a better notion - How about I don't PM at all and you just simply lay off the kindergarten crap in the first place - or am I being rampantly somewhat over-optimistic, once more..?

 

[TimeTraveler]

David Icke is insane.

Yes it could be confusing, but what we know is from hypnotic regression, as for the medical methods they use, we know those from this as well. The question is what we don't know, and that is why they'd have such limited science (it seems limited but may not be).

Hypnotic regression is hypnosis, it's the same thing as hypnosis. and it's easy to plant images of aliens into peoples heads using suggestion. If you tell a hypnotist you heard a noise one night and saw a weird light, this part might by real, but the hypnotist could ask you, "okay, so after you saw the UFO, did you hear any strange noises in the house?" and as you think about it, maybe you'll start to remember hearing strange noises, and then they will ask "what did you do next?" and then you'll try and visualize what you did next, and eventually you'll be telling a story of being abducted by aliens.

It might be that people really did see UFO's, or strange crafts, and heard noises, or saw lights flicker, I mean I've seen strange crafts and heard noises, I've had experiences where the electricity went funny because of strange crafts, but there were no aliens and theres no proof that it was an alien craft and not a government craft or a test of a stealth bomber or a NASA saucer. No one really knows, but seriously, alien abduction is the kinda thing that a hypnotist can plant easily.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

... but there were no aliens and theres no proof that it was an alien craft and not a government craft or a test of a stealth bomber or a NASA saucer. No one really knows...

Precisely! How marvellously refreshing to hear yet another member of the forums with some degree of acceptance for the notion of UFO's step forward and be prepared to state things just as plainly as that.

Well done and well said.

I'm sick to the back teeth of this subject being dominated by the tyranny of trite, hackneyed, idiotic clichés concerning aliens and alien abduction which have come to all but take over any conceivable form of discussion on the topic from rank amateurs who simply take what they've either seen on the telly or else simply read on the internet at complete face value and remain content just to regurgitate the same ill-considered garbage back time and time again.

Never once actually thinking about a single word, just going for the next quickest, stupidest expedient to hand and then flitting on to the next - snip, snip, job done - anyone who even dares venture so much as counterpoint - strawman arguments!

This we have to content ourselves with as passing for debate...

Y'know Mr Time Traveller, if more people such as yourself were simply prepared to come forward and say: "Well, actually, yes. I have seen a UFO. I can't describe what I saw as being anything other than some form of craft but as to the rest of all that stuff that's supposed to go with that - I don't know where any of that comes from...", or words to that effect, there remains not the slightest doubt in my mind a good deal many more people might be tempted to step forward and chime in as well.

But UFO's are just a means by which other people get to jump straight in and start spouting off about all their half baked theories and conjectures about aliens. With the subject of alien abduction, why we can leap in just that Little bit quicker because in most of these so-called "cases" there isn't even a UFO involved - people are supposedly transcendentally meditated through solid walls in a dreamlike state whilst still actually asleep...

What could conceivably be more empirical and unambiguous that that?

Arthur Conan Doyle famously penned the oft abused axiom: "When we eliminate the impossible, what we're left with, no matter how unlikely, must therefore be the truth"

As with most things, the tyranny of non-thinking which has come to define this subject in virtually all but everyones minds and, lamentably, experience manages to pervert even the simplest of logical structures time and time, over and over again - by insisting on eliminating the possible outright, deliberately, therefore making sure that whatever else that may conceivably be left with to draw conclusion from, is perpetually guaranteed by disposition to remain as unlikely as a cabbage that bites...

Also agree with the hypnosis thing, by the way, but given m'response earlier thought that went without saying.