Affirming the Supernatural

§outh§tar

is feeling caustic
Registered Senior Member
Affirming the Supernatural (A Proof of God)

As a fun thing, not that this necessarily changes my views, I will attempt to show that the supernatural is.

NOTE: It is important to clarify why we use "God", "supernatural", and "Him" interchangeably when we refer to the transcendent in this article. For one, "Him" is a commonly recognized pronoun for "God", which in turn is a commonly recognized term. We however resort primarily to "supernatural" in referring to the transcendent because the term is less familiar and consequently, has undergone less "idolatry" and anthropomorphization. Remember also that these words are merely terms with which we can allude to the transcendent. So please do not analyze this article using preconcieved notions/definitions of the supernatural/God as that is self defeating.
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It is important to disclose why I choose to use the term 'supernatural being' in lieu of the better recognized 'God'. Firstly, the concept of God known to my immediate audience is most popularly recognized in the West. This concept has been the source and (the recieving end) of much heartache, theological debate, sectarianism, and whatever other leaning humans believe they have a right to.

First, we will have to describe God. Note, we have not said "define God" but rather describe God. I will admit both terms are equally self contradictory but again, for the purpose of not inciting partisan protest we will fairly limit ourselves to what seems to be a solid underlying view of God. Again, this view has been permeated (and perhaps marred) by Western philosophy, but the point is to avail the reader of any religious bias for certain 'attributes' of the supernatural being.

- God is transcendent
This is perhaps the simplest 'definition' of God we as humans can muster, but again sectarianism has germinated conflict and it is therefore necessary to elaborate.

transcendent
1 a : exceeding usual limits : SURPASSING b : extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience c in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge
2 : being beyond comprehension
3 : transcending the universe or material existence

As Kantianism is not directly related to our end goal, we shall put it aside and pay respect to the remaining definition of 'transcendent'. What does it mean when something is transcendent? Nothing. To know that something is transcendent is to deny that something of its transcendence. For what entity "beyond comprehension" and "beyond the limits of ordinary experience" can have any aspect of its being comprehended? This again, seems to be an impossible hurdle in searching for a defense of the supernatural.

When we look closer however, we discover that the clause stipulates the entity as "lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience" and again, "exceeding usual limits". So if we are to describe God as transcendent, we must differentiate between the ordinary and the extraordinary. It is poor practice, and ultimately self defeating, to indulge in this dualism when dealing with the supernatural. For this reason does St. Dionysius declare:

Going yet higher, we say that He is neither a soul, nor a mind, nor an object of knowledge; neither has He opinion, nor reason, nor intellect; neither is He reason, nor thought, nor is He utterable or knowable; neither is He number, order, greatness, littleness, equality, inequality, likeness, nor unlikeness; neither does He stand nor move, nor is He quiescent; neither has He power, nor is power, nor light; neither does He live, nor is life; neither is He being, nor everlastingness, nor time, nor is His touch knowable; neither is He knowledge, nor truth, nor kingship, nor wisdom, nor one, nor one-ness, nor divinity, nor goodness; neither is He Spirit, as we can understand it, nor Sonship, nor Fatherhood, nor any other thing known to us or to any other creature...; neither is He darkness, nor light; nor falsehood, nor truth; neither is there any entire affirmation or negation that may be made concerning Him. (Theologia Mystica, V)​

Here again, we reach another impossible hurdle. If we are to use words to describe Him, then "we are committing the most subtle and insidious form of idol-worship (The Spectrum of Consciousness, 27). Coomaraswamy perhaps best addresses our conundrum:

Idolatry is the misuse of symbols, a definition needing no further qualifications. The traditional philosophy has nothing to say against the use of symbols and rites; though there is much that the orthodox can have to say against their misuse. It may be emphasized that the danger of treating verbal formulae as absolutes is generally greater than that of misusing plastic images.​

For this reason, we have refrained from attempting to "pin" God to any Western philosophy or religion. We shall not attempt to describe God as the Trinity, for even referring to the supernatural as "Him" is a most tremendous sacrilege. In Exodus 20:4,

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.​

Why must we be apprehensive of using words to describe the supernatural? There can be no good without bad;if we say God is good, then where do we leave the bad? There can be no light without darkness;if we say God is light, then where do we leave the darkness? There can be no existence without non existence; if we say God exists, then where do we leave nonexistence? To say the latter traits are separate from Him is to contradict oneself for how can an absolute being be limited in any respect? To say that He is neither good nor bad, neither light nor darkness, neither existent nor nonexistent, does not fix the problem. For again, we ask, how can absolute being be limited in any respect? In this regard, we can say religion has failed. Any affirmation of reality will contradict itself.

How then are we to prove or to disprove God? We can't touch the untouchable for we now know God is "unknowable". All attempts to represent or define Him meet with utter failure and self contradiction. All that has been shown points to the fact that dualism and logic cannot, can never, point to God. But what of God? Is there an opposite to God? Can there be an opposite to the Absolute? No!

This truth knows no hindrances anywhere.
It is like a vacuity of space which is not hindered by anything,
it refuses to take any predicates.
As it is beyond all forms of dualism, in it there are no contrasts,
no characterization is possible of it.
As there is in it no opposition,
it knows nothing that goes beyond it.
As there is in it no origination,
it leaves no traces behind it.
As there is in it no birth-and-death,
it is unborn.
As there are in it no pathways to mark its transformation,
it is pathless.
- Pranjnaparmita, Fo-mu Chinese version
Translated by D. T. Suzuki
Essays in Zen Buddhism, Third Series, 1953, p. 267.​

Now that we have established God is transcendent, we must ask, how did man recieve the idea of God? How can a limited being contain the tiniest inkling of God the transcendent? Some quip that man 'invented' Him but this is demonstrably false. Can a man claim to know something that he cannot know? To answer this, we retort to the skeptic, apart from the supernatural, what else has man 'fabricated' that he cannot know? The silence speaks volumes. To speak of fairies and unicorns and Santa Claus is hideously ignorant. Fairies and Santa Claus have the form of man, unicorns have the form of horses. Zeus and the gods of Mount Olympus perhaps? Ghosts, vampires, even spirits? No again. We must make this all important distinction when we sift through history's rubble. Zeus, witches, ghosts, vampires, unicorns, Harry Potter's arch-nemesis and what have you, these are invariably attempts to contain the supernatural by assigning human attributes. Witches wear clothes, Zeus hurls thunderbolts, vampires turn into bats to exsanguinate their victims. To attempt to associate any of these embodiments with man's knowledge of the supernatural is to reject our very description of the supernatural. Man may attribute "love", "free will", "determinism", "grace", "salvation", "wrath", "justice" to the supernatural because these things are familiar to him. But when he affirms the supernatural to be transcendent, this is not a thing we can call familiar. Everything we know is incorporated into our sphere of experience. But do we know anything transcendent? No! The very idea is absurd. One cannot know what one does not know. Hence, we dismiss these critics who claim "man invented the supernatural" as tending a gross contradiction in terms. We have now given one reason why man cannot have invented the supernatural; for apart from the supernatural, all of man's alledged fabrications are knowable.

We will now ask those who continue to claim the supernatural is an invention of man to try to come up with something unknowable. Let them imagine something transcendent. We ask these to atttempt to 'fabricate' something unknowable, as they persistently claim has been done. Whether it is a white void, or a blank blackness, these will continue to remain colors we can recognize. In short, they are NOT unknowable. There is no arguing the fact; man cannot think of something he does not know. Man can gaze into the heavens and marvel at the firmament, he can postulate that something or someone created them. He can have no idea "who" or "what", but this is NOT the same as coming up with something transcendent. As soon as man tries to "contain" the supernatural, he starts to call God "something" or "someone", an "intelligent creator". As soon as he does this, he is guilty of attempting to describe what he cannot, the transcendent. St. Paul angrily expresses his contempt for such idolaters.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1)​

The apostle's harangue mightily voices what we have been attempting to realize so far. Although we cannot agree with Paul's anthropomorphization of God as wrathful, we do agree with some of his other points.

- That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
We have already dismissed the rival idea that man creates the supernatural as self contradictory. A little more elaboration is however necessary on this point.
- And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
This is at all consistent with what we have discussed so far. By "incorruptible", Paul means to say "transcendent", for there is no corrupting the transcendent. In reading it as such, Paul's statement seems to agree with our findings.

As a sidenote, we will remind the reader that this topic is unsuitable for assessing Paul's 'proof of God in nature', nor his offensive remarks towards unbelievers. We will expound on these two points summarily before reaching our conclusion.

- Supernatural Revelation
If we are to admit that it is impossible of our own discernment to know the supernatural, then what can we make of the resident knowledge "manifest" in us? How has this knowledge been so persistent, even to modern times? Remember quickly that in modern times, atheism has risen primarily in response (or rather logical rejection) of the human renditions of God apparent in figures like Jesus, Jehovah, and Allah. Let us also note that this response is not applicable to the transcendent, no amount of logic can affirm or deny the transcendent. The obvious answer to our seemingly contradictory and impossible knowledge of the supernatural then rests rather in revelation. We are again in no position to describe the means of revelation, whether scriptural, biological, or natural, and that is beyond the scope of our discussion. Note: We do NOT avow the supernatural endowed man with knowledge of the supernatural, or that some heavenly trickster endowed man with knowledge of the supernatural. We merely affirm this: the supernatural is. Any further probing via logic defeats our purpose.

As a closing remark, let us remind the reader that we limited ourselves to one description of the 'supernatural', namely transcendence. We have thus abstained from endorsing any specific "version" of the supernatural, for as we have discovered, this is idolatry. We do not then, like St. Dionysius, endeavor to define the spiritual as elephant, or Spirit, or Triune, or Air, or Water, or Space, or Substance, or Power, or Glory, or Good, or Bad, or Light, or Darkness, or Alpha, or Omega, or Consciousness, or Unconsciousness, or Mind, or Soul. We may only say, God is. "God is the isness of isness." God just is. Any further attempt at rationalization confounds the mind and brings much trouble, as we have seen with religious wars and strife over orthodox doctrine. By commiting God to "isness" itself, we can never logically anthropomorphize the supernatural since the end result is always inconsistency, contradiction. We find our frustration modeled in Godel's famous "Incompleteness Theorem".

We now know that the supernatural cannot be defined or held to any system of logic. We cannot say that the supernatural exists or does not exist. We also now know that it is impossible for man to have concocted the transcendent. No, his very attempts at describing the supernatural have met with folorn disgrace and impious idolatry. We will thus be content to admit the sole truth: God is.

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Afterthoughts
- How does one affirm the supernatural personally?
Some have pointed to meditation, others to prayer, some to good works, others to faith, some to enlightenment, others to science. We have only affirmed "God just is", not through any rigid logical means or any word play. I find that attempting to "dial" the supernatural, the transcendent, is logically self defeating. Does the potter have power over the clay, or the clay over the potter? I however do not know that the supernatural 'respects' the rules of logic and therefore can only leave the reader to make his own path.
 
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Dearest Leo,

If we are to describe the supernatural as transcendent, then it is logically contradictory to claim knowledge of the supernatural's miraculous abilities.
 
§outh§tar said:
As a fun thing, not that this necessarily changes my views, I will attempt to show that the supernatural is.

...Note: We do NOT avow the supernatural endowed man with knowledge of the supernatural, or that some heavenly trickster endowed man with knowledge of the supernatural. We merely affirm this: the supernatural is. Any further probing via logic defeats our purpose...
It might be conducive to the discussion to allow that the Supernatural cannot, by definition, explain to mortal man just what "He is" (note: by capitalizing He, we denote something greater than simply expressing the common pronoun) thus God's admonition to Moses that to behold Him would mean death - since no mortal man can comprehend God and remain limited and mortal. Man cannot, through any effort or striving, ever begin in the least to comprehend the vastness and immensity of the Transcendent Supernatural. However, what seemed only slightly discussed is the possibility that the Supernatural might wish to communicate His desires to mortality by being as simplistic as possible so that these mortals of insignificant intelligence might know something, if only the smallest sliver, of the immenseness of the Supernatural - if only to know that such a Supernatural exists, that HE IS. So, while the internal efforts of mortal man might remain doomed from the outset to pitiful failure, regardless of the depth of commitment or desire to do good, might it also be possible for the Supernatural to communicate with such men and form, by dictation, the perfect religion - the worship of the Supernatural, even without the understanding? No doubt, any such perfection communicated by the Supernatural would also be expected to succumb to corruption by the efforts of man to manipulate, or even to comprehend the meaning behind this perfect religion given by the Supernatural - thus the pervasive nature of corrupted anthropologic religions (religions of gods made in the image of man). Yet, might this Supernatural also be able, through unknown and unknowable agencies, to preserve the original manuscripts communicated to those imperfect, mortal men, so that in times to come, other such mortal men might also reap the benefits of this perfect religion given by the Supernatural? If GOD IS, then GOD CAN.
 
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It might be conducive to the discussion to allow that the Supernatural cannot, by definition, explain to mortal man just what "He is" (note: by capitalizing He, we denote something greater than simply expressing the common pronoun) thus God's admonition to Moses that to behold Him would mean death - since no mortal man can comprehend God and remain limited and mortal.

We are assuming the supernatural/God is transcendent. By the very definition of 'transcendent' I have provided, it is contrary to logic to claim "the supernatural cannot". As I told Leo, to claim such knowledge is to loose the supernatural of the attribute of transcendence, by which we commit "idolatry" (anthropomorphizing the unknowable). We can neither say the transcendent "can" or "cannot". Neither can we claim the transcendent both "can" and "cannot". These are both absurdities and defeat the notion of transcendence. I notice you contradict yourself hereafter by reminding us that man cannot "ever begin in the least to comprehend the vastness", as I have just stated. I would again not use "vastness", as the transcendent can again not logically be "vast" or "void".

Man cannot, through any effort or striving, ever begin in the least to comprehend the vastness and immensity of the Transcendent Supernatural. However, what seemed only slightly discussed is the possibility that the Supernatural might wish to communicate His desires to mortality by being as simplistic as possible so that these mortals of insignificant intelligence might know something, if only the smallest sliver, of the immenseness of the Supernatural - if only to know that such a Supernatural exists, that HE IS.

Here again comes the problem. If the supernatural is transcendent, then the logic follows that we can NOT determine why we know or why we don't know, we can only affirm that we know (and even there we have epistemological difficulties). If the supernatural "desires" or not, we can't know. If we did know, then the supernatural is no more transcendent, as this is the logical conclusion.

So, while the internal efforts of mortal man might remain doomed from the outset to pitiful failure, regardless of the depth of commitment or desire to do good, might it also be possible for the Supernatural to communicate with such men and form, by dictation, the perfect religion - the worship of the Supernatural, even without the understanding?

You are jumping ahead of yourself again. Can you worship something that you don't know? Something you can't know to exist or not exist? Using any and all reason available, tell me this after thinking carefully: can you determine whether or not the transcendent requires worship? The very notion is self contradictory and absurd! If you try to worship something you don't understand, you again come to what I pointed out time and time again: idolatry. By some means, Scripture, relics, ghosts, vampires, tarot cards, this is how man attempts to "contain" the supernatural, to familiarize it and make it accessible. So no it is not possible, both logically and practically.

Yet, might this Supernatural also be able, through unknown and unknowable agencies, to preserve the original manuscripts communicated to those imperfect, mortal men, so that in times to come, other such mortal men might also reap the benefits of this perfect religion given by the Supernatural? If GOD IS, then GOD CAN.

You have already disqualified your argument. If the supernatural is to 'transmit' truth/salvation (or whatever an idolater might call it) through "unknown and unknowable agencies", then we again can NOT know. We will not know where to start and where to end without commiting idolatry by commiting any such 'revelation' to familiar terms such as "grace", "love", "wrath", "destiny", "joy", "salvation". If we are again to suppose God (the supernatural) "can", then we have again committed sacrilege. It is by all means impossible to determine if the transcendent "can" or "cannot". Any attemp to do so is again idolatry; "containing" the transcendent on man's level through such anthropomorphization.
 
§outh§tar said:
Dearest Leo,

If we are to describe the supernatural as transcendent, then it is logically contradictory to claim knowledge of the supernatural's miraculous abilities.

So you toss out the Miraculous as a facet of the Supernatural in order to conform to the rules of Logic?

And you don't seem to be kidding...
 
Leo Volont said:
So you toss out the Miraculous as a facet of the Supernatural in order to conform to the rules of Logic?

And you don't seem to be kidding...

:D

Thank you, you saved me from typing a very long response by summing it up in a couple sentences.
 
Leo Volont said:
So you toss out the Miraculous as a facet of the Supernatural in order to conform to the rules of Logic?

And you don't seem to be kidding...

Leo,

I am in no position to haggle over what is natural and what is miraculous in this world. One man's meat is another man's poison. What may have seemed like a miracle to the ancients might not be likewise viewed as a meterologists as a war between Zeus and the gods. So it is better not to touch the issue.
 
§outh§tar said:
Leo,

I am in no position to haggle over what is natural and what is miraculous in this world.
But you are in a position to explicitly state as a fact that the supernatural does exist?

One man's meat is another man's poison.
I don't know of anyone that is poisined by meat. The proteins it contains are necessary for health.

What may have seemed like a miracle to the ancients might not be likewise viewed as a meterologists as a war between Zeus and the gods. So it is better not to touch the issue.
What do Greek pantheonic weathermen have to do with this?
 
§outh§tar said:
Leo,

I am in no position to haggle over what is natural and what is miraculous in this world. One man's meat is another man's poison. What may have seemed like a miracle to the ancients might not be likewise viewed as a meterologists as a war between Zeus and the gods. So it is better not to touch the issue.

You still don't seem to be kidding. Are you locked in a plastic bubble somewhere? You don't have to quibble about what is miraculous. The total suspension of Physical Law is what is 'Miraculous' -- Weightlessness, Multiplication of Mass, Invisibility on demand, materializations, etc, etc, etc.

But you take the logical dodge of saying that as soon as it happens once, it must be natural and not miraculous anymore, and that since it did happen there must be a natural explanation for it. do you not think it odd that you can be sincere about an argument that is only a disingenuous dodge. Everyone can see you're hiding, but you think to yourself you only jumped in that hole to get some shade. You're lying to yourself.... which is the charitable way of looking at it. The only other option would be to suppose you are incredibly stupid in not knowing how your reasonings must play out in the real world.
 
You still don't seem to be kidding. Are you locked in a plastic bubble somewhere? You don't have to quibble about what is miraculous. The total suspension of Physical Law is what is 'Miraculous' -- Weightlessness, Multiplication of Mass, Invisibility on demand, materializations, etc, etc, etc.

I don't remember any of those miracles.

But you take the logical dodge of saying that as soon as it happens once, it must be natural and not miraculous anymore, and that since it did happen there must be a natural explanation for it. do you not think it odd that you can be sincere about an argument that is only a disingenuous dodge. Everyone can see you're hiding, but you think to yourself you only jumped in that hole to get some shade. You're lying to yourself.... which is the charitable way of looking at it. The only other option would be to suppose you are incredibly stupid in not knowing how your reasonings must play out in the real world.

I never said once it happens there must be a natural explanation. In fact, I never said anything about natural explanations. Different people see, or don't see, different miracles.
 
this one goes out to southstar...that proof you did was better than anything i've ever done in math-analysis class. That was awesome. Do you think you just shattered the beliefs of all atheists?
 
snoopdogg_capoeira said:
this one goes out to southstar...that proof you did was better than anything i've ever done in math-analysis class. That was awesome. Do you think you just shattered the beliefs of all atheists?

Not really, you see atheist can be defined so:

As Michael Martin, Professor of Philosophy at Boston University explains:

In Greek "a" means "without" or "not" and "theos" means "god". From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then atheism is a negative view, characterized by the absence of a belief in God. [3]
[Emphasis added]

So you see, atheists have a nice little cop out of being "without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist." Therefore this is inconsequential to them in that sense, but it does put those who claim the supernatural does not exist in a rut to explain my observations. O' course I have to polish up the argument a little bit, I didn't revise or even read over before posting.
 
top mosker said:
But you are in a position to explicitly state as a fact that the supernatural does exist?

If we are to accept the supernatural is transcendent, then we obviously can't know whether or not the supernatural 'performs' miracles. If we knew then it wouldn't be transcendent anymore, now would it?
I don't know of anyone that is poisined by meat. The proteins it contains are necessary for health.

It's a proverb.

What do Greek pantheonic weathermen have to do with this?

Their idea of miracle is not our idea of miracle. Because of such discrepancies, I am in no position to say the supernatural is responsible for any 'miracle' since to someone in the future it may not seem so miraculous. It also again goes in violation of describing the supernatural as transcendent, if it was transcendent then isn't it contradictory to say we know what it does?
 
It is important at this juncture we define what is meant by 'supernatrual'...for example If its interpretation means 'above' 'transcendent' to Nature whilst Nature is considered inferior or a 'recepacle for superior spirit--which is supernatrual, then it's clear that is a patriarchal interpretation. Then you have to understand the formation of the concept of a msculinized 'he-God' in the sky...ie., ABOVE Nature 'below

Actuall, Indigenous peoples did not believe in supernatrual as it came to be interpreted by Abrahamic religious thought, and Greek philosophy,,,,/for example, Native American peoples struggled to understand the Christian concept of the 'soul'...for for them soul was PART of Nature..in the wind, rocks, clouds etc. It was not some 'supernatrual' element dropping INOT 'mechanical' Nature -as it were
Goddess mythology understands 'supernatrual' but NOT as being transcendent to Nature as such--if transcendent means superior. it is rather a DEEPENING of feeling in understanding natural. For example the experience whilst having taken hallucinogenis gives the experiencer this sense of 'supernatrual'. i actually dont like the term as it is loades from hundreds of years of christian indoctrination which claims that Nature is inferior, and one must pay homage to a transcendent IDEA
 
§outh§tar said:
I don't remember any of those miracles.

So you suppose you can write an intelligent essay on the Supernatural without ever having studied your first Saint?

It is not surprising you know nothing about Miracles or about Saints. The West is dominated by Protestantism and Judaism -- both Religions that have no Saints, and in order that this shortcoming of theirs be not revealed, they tend to discourage the publication of Miracles and Saints from less Religiously Dysfunctional Corners of the World.

However, it is not as though these Western Bigots have bothered to dig through the libraries and actively seek out and burn all such information. Any scholar with the slightest insight or power of intelligent reflection could have found something about the Saints and the Miraculous. Only the obtuse, the dull, and the unimaginative could bother to study the Supernatural without attempting to uncover what could be found outside the American Bible Belt, Free Masonic Europe, and the Jewish Media.
 
Leo Volont said:
So you suppose you can write an intelligent essay on the Supernatural without ever having studied your first Saint?

It is not surprising you know nothing about Miracles or about Saints. The West is dominated by Protestantism and Judaism -- both Religions that have no Saints, and in order that this shortcoming of theirs be not revealed, they tend to discourage the publication of Miracles and Saints from less Religiously Dysfunctional Corners of the World.

However, it is not as though these Western Bigots have bothered to dig through the libraries and actively seek out and burn all such information. Any scholar with the slightest insight or power of intelligent reflection could have found something about the Saints and the Miraculous. Only the obtuse, the dull, and the unimaginative could bother to study the Supernatural without attempting to uncover what could be found outside the American Bible Belt, Free Masonic Europe, and the Jewish Media.

leo, if you could provide absolute proof of a miracle to us, I am sure your argument would carry some weight.
 
duendy said:
It is important at this juncture we define what is meant by 'supernatrual'...for example If its interpretation means 'above' 'transcendent' to Nature whilst Nature is considered inferior or a 'recepacle for superior spirit--which is supernatrual, then it's clear that is a patriarchal interpretation. Then you have to understand the formation of the concept of a msculinized 'he-God' in the sky...ie., ABOVE Nature 'below

Actuall, Indigenous peoples did not believe in supernatrual as it came to be interpreted by Abrahamic religious thought, and Greek philosophy,,,,/for example, Native American peoples struggled to understand the Christian concept of the 'soul'...for for them soul was PART of Nature..in the wind, rocks, clouds etc. It was not some 'supernatrual' element dropping INOT 'mechanical' Nature -as it were
Goddess mythology understands 'supernatrual' but NOT as being transcendent to Nature as such--if transcendent means superior. it is rather a DEEPENING of feeling in understanding natural. For example the experience whilst having taken hallucinogenis gives the experiencer this sense of 'supernatrual'. i actually dont like the term as it is loades from hundreds of years of christian indoctrination which claims that Nature is inferior, and one must pay homage to a transcendent IDEA

I alread gave a definition of transcendent in the essay. I also said that it is logically contradictory to try to "define" the supernatural since the supernatural is transcendent. Or do you think it is logically possible to define the transcendent?
 
§outh§tar said:
leo, if you could provide absolute proof of a miracle to us, I am sure your argument would carry some weight.

As Hume pointed out, you don't even have absolute proof that any effect has ever followed any cause.

But we have tons of what would be accepted as legal evidence for miracles. Thousands of miracles have been witnessed and documented in History by reliable sources.

Also, science has its own orthodoxies which forbid it from ever authenticating a Miracle. For instance, there is the difficult time brought on to the Research Staff at Sterling Hospital in India for authenicating that a Holy Man, Pralad Jani, does indeed sustain himself without food or water. Instead of recognizing this as a validation of the Miraculous, the Scientific Community responded only by questioning the Credentials of those who made the Study. The same goes for the Doctors on the Board of the Medical Society that validates the Miracles at Lourdes, France -- the Proof is not recognized by the Community of Scientists... rather the Community of Scientists eagerly excommunicate their unorthodox Fellows.

Besides, you are being lazy. What of Empirical Studies? Do scientists ordinarily hide in their laboratories when they hear of fascinating phenomena in the Field, saying that they will not bother to examine the anecdotal evidences until somebody else has completely explained the phenomena in a laboratory setting, adherring all the way to doubleblind controls? Well, no! Laboratories are not everything. It is possible to collect data in the World. Anthropology is a Science. History can be done Scientifically. Sociology. Their are studies which can be conducted outside of Laboratory Controls. It is an Atheist Dodge to demand laboratory Controls of Theology when the same laboratory Controls are not demanded of other Scientific Disciplines.

So, anyway, to deny the Miraculous, when their are thousands of documented first hand accounts of the Miraculous is to deny empirical evidence.
 
§outh§tar said:
I alread gave a definition of transcendent in the essay. I also said that it is logically contradictory to try to "define" the supernatural since the supernatural is transcendent. Or do you think it is logically possible to define the transcendent?

you contradict...one mo you say you've defined it, then you claim you cant define it....?

i said that IF you define it as 'above' Nature implying it is transcendent and 'supeiror' to Nature, then that is a patriarchal idea. IF, like Goddess people, and many Indigenous peoples you see the transcendent as PAT of Nature then you HAVe...or i HAVE defined it haven't i

The blurb that says it CANT be defined is usually mystical blurb, and somes--as does the term'supernatrual' from Eastern metaphysicians,,,,and is meant to obfuscate a feeling that can be had by anyone, so as to create an elitist authgority who 'only knows' what it is
 
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