About God - And I'm Right

[caffeine_fubar]

Wrong. Omniscience is not a requirement of God. Gods do not even need to be omnipotent or omnipresent. They simply need to be creators of the universe that have some sort of consciousness. God, if it exists, might be totally evil.

Who are we to name the requirements of a god?

 

[§outh§tar]

I see where you're going (I think), but I don't think I'm "limiting" God to logic at all -- I'm employing logic to argue against what I think is the utter horseshit of religious doctrine re. God's "will" and good/evil.

I wouldn't presume to suggest God "is obligated to make His actions seem reasonable or logical to us" at all. That has nothing to do with anything I've said, really.

Well you said:

God (or whateeevvvverr you want to call Him), if He mapped it all out, if He had a Hand over it all, would have gone to an awful lot of trouble just to watch a play He wrote. Come the hell on. Even Einstein retracted his famous "God doesn't play dice". Yeah, He does. He doesn't know the outcome, and doesn't cut the offensive moves, and the Uncertainty Principle is a clue. 'Cause if He knew, and if He had to move in to cut the offensive moves, He wouldn't create the pieces and the board -- there'd be no purpose whatsoever in it.

And, for me, the fact that He doesn't know, means there IS purpose.

We can't actually fathom how omniscience and free will can allow for each other by logic. That doesn't mean God can't since since He is not bound by logic as far as we know (if we are to respect the general definition of God). Therefore to say God plays dice to give life meaning because any other way would illogically mean God's creation serves no purpose is kinda putting God in the same thought mode as we puny mortals.

In a nutshell: Just because we can't figure out the purpose of God creating us in an environment sans free will doesn't mean there isn't one. All I'm trying to say is arguments concerning God's nature don't really go anyway since there are many areas where logic and God contradict. To resolve this, I'm just saying God is higher or maybe removed from logic. More on this in a thread I'll make when I have time.

 

[-Bob-]

From the Christian point of view, God is a like a mother that lets her kid f**k up, so that he will learn his lesson. Its not a game because God supposedly is working to some result. Not only that but its our fault not his. It doesn't matter if he knows what's going to happen because he's still not controlling us. That's the view that God made the clock but then laid his hands off for it to run.

 

[Insanely Elite]

M*W: So this book provides the proof of god that I'm looking for?

Insofar as such proof is possible, yes.

 

[Cris]

Caffeine,

Who are we to name the requirements of a god?

Where else would one obtain the definition of a god? A god is only a human concept and as far as anyone can tell does not relate to anything real.

 

[TheERK]

Who are we to name the requirements of a god?

Like Cris already said, who the hell else is going to do it? It's a part of language. We define the word.

 

[RawThinkTank]

Hey god u EDIT , u sysy , Common, Lets Talk, U stupid little Fool ?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Insanely Elite: Insofar as such proof is possible, yes.
*************
M*W: Could you provide some quotes? Thanks.

 

[pixel]

Who are we to name the requirements of a god?

Oh BROTHER. We're not telling God what he has to be like, for God's sake, or imposing some requirements on Him. We're just trying to come to common ground as to what a "God" is in these discussions. We're just establishing terms.

 

[pixel]

Well you said:
We can't actually fathom how omniscience and free will can allow for each other by logic. That doesn't mean God can't since since He is not bound by logic as far as we know (if we are to respect the general definition of God). Therefore to say God plays dice to give life meaning because any other way would illogically mean God's creation serves no purpose is kinda putting God in the same thought mode as we puny mortals.

That's not putting God in the same "thought mode" as mortals. That's like saying,
A: A red-winged blackbird attacked a human who went near its nest;
Therefore, red-winged blackbirds must be protective of their young.
B: You're imposing human thought modes on birds.

It doesn't matter whether God is "bound by logic" or not -- we ARE. I mean, if I'm trying to construct a model for understanding free will and/or predetermined fate, I guess that my only tool is logic -- because blind faith doesn't work and is full of bizarre contradictions -- and so, we can call that a "thought mode", but it's the only tool I've got. If they're selling omniscience somewhere that you know of, let me know -- I'll get myself some, so that I can speak on more evolved level than "logic".

In a nutshell: Just because we can't figure out the purpose of God creating us in an environment sans free will doesn't mean there isn't one. All I'm trying to say is arguments concerning God's nature don't really go anyway since there are many areas where logic and God contradict. To resolve this, I'm just saying God is higher or maybe removed from logic. More on this in a thread I'll make when I have time.

Well, I could also say that just because we can't figure out any other reason for a black-bird to attack you when you're near its nest, doesn't mean there isn't one, either.

I don't think "logic and God" contradict in the least. What do you mean? Even if he were removed fromlogic, how else do you propose we try to find a place for Him -- all we've got is our brains. (And anybody who says "use your heart instead" will bug me to no end -- that doesn't mean ANYTHING.)

I just woke up and I'm pissy.

 

[pixel]

And besides, the alternative to trying to find a place for God using logic is to either

a) engage in religious blind faith-type ask-no-real-questions-just-accept-it shite (in which you probably also accept crap like "Adam and Eve" as literal), or

b) throw up your hands and go, "we'll never get it 'cause we're not God, so might as well give up, tee-hee!"

If we're not using our "puny" human brains, what else we got?

 

[Lori_7]

Oh for Pete's sake. I've had a few gin & tonics and was checking out the Religion forum before going to bed, and now I'm annoyed. In my opinion, anyone who wonders how a "loving" God could allow evil things to happen (and is hurt by it) is... well... PLEASE! And all this tripe about God's "plan"...

It's called free will. There's law, you don't have to abide by it, and actions have consequences. Would you rather be a mindless drone? A puppet with no will of your own? No choice..."you'll live...forever...according to my will and my law...and with me...whether you want to or not?" God made you yea, but He's giving you a choice as to whether or not you want to participate. If He created you, He can certainly destroy you as well...you get what you want...what's the problem?

Imagine this. You make a bunch of chess pieces and a board from scratch. It's a hell of a lot of effort. Then you call your friends to come over and play. When they get to your house, you say, "K, but I already mapped out the whole game, and I know the end result. Do exactly as I prescribe in this written procedure here. I haven't worked in any moves that would offend me. You have no choices, and I know everything that's gonna happen, but I've invited you here to play anyway. K, ready?"

So your friends are like, what the f*ck am I here for then, if it's all been mapped out and I'm just playing out your plan for you? What's the point? For us the players and for you the originator, what the hell is the point? When you wrote it out, it was all about YOU. And if I play this game, I'm really just a pawn, and you're going to watch me f*ck up. WHAT'S THE POINT?

Could be that you could learn to play chess from the Master...the Creator of the game.

What's more like it is that you are not the other player, but a pawn in the game...a board piece. And you get to decide, based upon how the game is played as you witness it go on around you and with you, who's side you want to be on...God's side (who will most certainly win the game)...or the other side (the losers).

Or how about this...you create your own universe and your own laws and your own humanity. And you can invite them over for gin and tonics and to hear you go on about how right you are all the time and about everything. And after the effects of the alcohol wore off, they'd all be like, "Why am I here?...I have laundry to do."

And I ask YOU, long-suffereing bleeding heart pious brothers and sisters, what WOULD the point be?

The point is to learn from experience and use what you learn to make a choice.

God (or whateeevvvverr you want to call Him), if He mapped it all out, if He had a Hand over it all, would have gone to an awful lot of trouble just to watch a play He wrote. Come the hell on. Even Einstein retracted his famous "God doesn't play dice". Yeah, He does. He doesn't know the outcome, and doesn't cut the offensive moves, and the Uncertainty Principle is a clue. 'Cause if He knew, and if He had to move in to cut the offensive moves, He wouldn't create the pieces and the board -- there'd be no purpose whatsoever in it.

And, for me, the fact that He doesn't know, means there IS purpose.

Just because God knows what choices you will make before you ever make them does not mean you do not have free will. You make the choices...He just knows what they will be before you do...He's always known. Life is to learn...He is explaining His law to you first hand...by allowing you to live it. You experience good and experience evil and make choices...and you learn from it. Well, seems that some people do...those who want to learn. Maybe those who don't want to learn from it are only here and playing the game so that those who do want to learn will have an opposing team to play with. The Wheats vs The Tares. I want to be on The Wheats team. I love God and I love His law and I hate sin and the awful effects of it, and I would love to live forever with Him and without sin. That is what I have learned in playing this game called life. I win!

 

[mustafhakofi]

lori:
as you been told before, your life as a xian is pre- ordained, you have no choice.

whats the point learning chess if the outcome is pre-ordained, thats worse then tic tac toe. (why be a piece, when you can be the player.)(you have to be on gods side it's pre-ordained, he wins)

learn from what experience, what you do, and what you say, and how you do it,are pre-ordained.

explain ?: how it is a choice if he knows what,when, how, why, before you do.
do you know how stupid you last paragraph is.

how do you win when your told your a sinner all the time, are told how nasty god is, so live in fear of upsetting it, are told god loves you provided you do what it say.
there are no conditions on love, love is unconditional.
where is the unconditional love from god.

 

[Jenyar]

The highways from Seattle to New York are also "pre-ordained". Someone has decided beforehand that those are the ways to go, and ye shall go by them if you ever want to get to Seattle from New York by car. They have been paved, prepared, provided with rules and roadsigns, and you can find them on maps. Car accidents don't change that, getting lost doesn't change that. But staying on the road does not keep you from car accidents or getting lost. Nobody can force you to consult the map or drive safely, after all.

You don't suddenly become a robot when you decide to leave your offroading ways and stay on the interstate.

 

[§outh§tar]

Thats trying to oversimplify things, don't you think? Not that I've ever taken those highways before.

 

[Jenyar]

You never wanted to go from Seattle to New York by car before.

 

[Lori_7]

lori:
as you been told before, your life as a xian is pre- ordained, you have no choice.

whats the point learning chess if the outcome is pre-ordained, thats worse then tic tac toe. (why be a piece, when you can be the player.)(you have to be on gods side it's pre-ordained, he wins)

learn from what experience, what you do, and what you say, and how you do it,are pre-ordained.

You're still learning aren't you? Or have you given up thinking that there is nothing to learn? I for one continue learning...about the law that we live under here in this universe. You get to experience it first hand throughout your life, so you can understand it.

The point to learning chess if the outcome is preordained is that you get to learn to play chess...lol.

explain ?: how it is a choice if he knows what,when, how, why, before you do.
do you know how stupid you last paragraph is.

Apparently I don't...what's so difficult to understand about it? You make the choices, but because He is omniscient, He knows what choices you will make before you do. That does not in any way mean that He makes the choices for you.

how do you win when your told your a sinner all the time, are told how nasty god is, so live in fear of upsetting it, are told god loves you provided you do what it say.
there are no conditions on love, love is unconditional.
where is the unconditional love from god.

I am a sinner, and yet are not told that all of the time, as if being brow-beaten. You are made well aware of your sin by the Holy Spirit, which allows you to learn from it, and turn from it, thereby conquering it...which is another word for winning. You are never rid of it, but with God in your life, the effects of it dwindle in His blessing.

I'm only told about how nasty God is by those who don't know Him. I know Him...I know better than that.

I do not live in fear of anything...most especially God. There is nothing more clear in knowing Him than that He loves you regardless of what you do or say or anything else. His love is unconditional. I know His love...experience it and feel it personally and constantly. God IS love. But you don't know Him, and so you don't know this...you have no understanding because you have no experience. OH! Which brings us back to the point of this thread doesn't it? It is only through EXPERIENCE that we gain KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING. And THAT is the point! Eureka!

Love,

Lori

 

[pixel]

It's called free will. There's law, you don't have to abide by it, and actions have consequences. Would you rather be a mindless drone?

Wha? Well no. I didn't remotely suggest that, but the opposite.

What's more like it is that you are not the other player, but a pawn in the game...a board piece.[/QUOTE

Yes, that's right.

And you get to decide, based upon how the game is played as you witness it go on around you and with you, who's side you want to be on...God's side (who will most certainly win the game)...or the other side (the losers).

I know I shouldn't even ask what a "loser" is. Non-christians? People who have never been exposed to religious studies? Criminals who were tortured as children and grew up to be nasty? People born with psychological disorders? People exposed to logic and science who stopped going to church?

And after the effects of the alcohol wore off, they'd all be like, "Why am I here?...I have laundry to do."

Hm? Missed your point.

The point is to learn from experience and use what you learn to make a choice.

Yes, I agree. But how does that fit into the context of this conversation? I'm saying there is free will and no predestination... So in the case of predestination, I have to ask you -- WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF I'VE LEARNED OR NOT -- what I will do depends on God's "plan" for me. Besides, if God planned for me to learn, I'd learn, and if not, not.

Just because God knows what choices you will make before you ever make them does not mean you do not have free will. You make the choices...He just knows what they will be before you do...He's always known.
[\QUOTE]

My point is to argue against pre-destination. The idea of knowing or not knowing is secondary and actually probably a whole other thread which I can't really stand up for except to say that what I know of quantum physics suggests that there seems to be a deliberate "unknowability" about the future.

Life is to learn...He is explaining His law to you first hand...by allowing you to live it. You experience good and experience evil and make choices...and you learn from it. Well, seems that some people do...those who want to learn. Maybe those who don't want to learn from it are only here and playing the game so that those who do want to learn will have an opposing team to play with. The Wheats vs The Tares. I want to be on The Wheats team. I love God and I love His law and I hate sin and the awful effects of it, and I would love to live forever with Him and without sin. That is what I have learned in playing this game called life. I win!

I don't disagree that life could be all about learning, and I'll say for the point of this point that maybe learning "God's Law" could be taken to mean being loving and enlightened. All people -- and not just Christians -- can move in that direction. I'm genuinely glad you love God and live without sin -- that makes sense to me. I also feel great love for all things, and I live without sin as much as I can humanly manage, and so, although I don't go to church, can it be possible that I win too, based on choices I made, not based on what was decided for me?

 

[pixel]

The highways from Seattle to New York are also "pre-ordained". Someone has decided beforehand that those are the ways to go, and ye shall go by them if you ever want to get to Seattle from New York by car. They have been paved, prepared, provided with rules and roadsigns, and you can find them on maps. Car accidents don't change that, getting lost doesn't change that. But staying on the road does not keep you from car accidents or getting lost. Nobody can force you to consult the map or drive safely, after all.

You don't suddenly become a robot when you decide to leave your offroading ways and stay on the interstate.

Nope. The path is available for you to take, along with 100 million other paths. You make your choices when you turn onto that ramp. THERE ARE CHOICES -- no one decided you would go to New York on this date and take this route. You just chose to take the easiest route, for your personal reasons, and you also chose to drive rather than take any other means of transportation. (I know people who don't take highways, by the way.)

 

[Lori_7]

Yes, I agree. But how does that fit into the context of this conversation? I'm saying there is free will and no predestination... So in the case of predestination, I have to ask you -- WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF I'VE LEARNED OR NOT -- what I will do depends on God's "plan" for me. Besides, if God planned for me to learn, I'd learn, and if not, not.

I'm saying that there is free will within predestination. God works His plan around your choices to accomplish His will given your choices. So do you want to learn or not? About God? About Jesus? Or do you think you have Him all figured out already? You can know Him you know...have you considered that? Experience is the best way to learn...to have true understanding. That is my whole point, and the answer to your post about "what is the point?" What you think you know about Him keeps you from Him. After all, why seek knowledge when you think you already have all of the answers? If you truly want answers, then why not go to the source of all truth? That is HIM.

I don't disagree that life could be all about learning, and I'll say for the point of this point that maybe learning "God's Law" could be taken to mean being loving and enlightened. All people -- and not just Christians -- can move in that direction. I'm genuinely glad you love God and live without sin -- that makes sense to me. I also feel great love for all things, and I live without sin as much as I can humanly manage, and so, although I don't go to church, can it be possible that I win too, based on choices I made, not based on what was decided for me?

Learning God's law means just that. Um...being loved and enlightened BY HIM is the answer. Your flesh...meaning your intellect or works...will not provide you with knowledge of God. Rebirth comes only through Christ and by the Holy Spirit. Then you may have knowledge of God because you KNOW Him. He is the source of all truth, and He will explain everything you need to know to you personally. So yes, you win or lose based upon choices that you make...will you rely on your own flesh, or will you rely on God? Do you really want to know the truth about Him or don't you? That is THE choice you need to make. I have a feeling that you will make the right one.

Love,

Lori