Abortion

Robban

Registered Senior Member
Once again I hear on the news about the religious resistance on abortion. A man has in cold blood killed a doctor and when executed for this they wanna make him a martyr. Yes in USA, where else? :)

Question: Is there any real support on the bible for this discussion?
 
Originally posted by Robban
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Once again I hear on the news about the religious resistance on abortion. A man has in cold blood killed a doctor and when executed for this they wanna make him a martyr. Yes in USA, where else? :) Question: Is there any real support on the bible for this discussion?
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(I don't know about the Bible saying anything on abortion, because it's usually stated that the babies are born first before God kills them.)

(An interesting fact, though, in ancient history the nomads would put figs and dates into the camel's uterus to prevent them from becoming pregnant while they were on a caravan across the desert.)

(Pregnancy preventatives have been known through the ages. In ancient England, midwives (often accused of being witches) would insert twigs into the cervix and uterus to cause an abortion. Native American women used Blue Cohosh (Squaw Root) for menstrual difficulties, cramps, etc. as well as for inducing labor. Black Cohosh was taken when a pregnancy was not wanted. It induced major uterine contractions to expell the conceptus. Today, seaweed is used to initiate abortion when put into the cervix. Strangely, the laminaria looks like a twig! The laminaria swells to open the cervix so the abortus can spill out. Frankly, these are all-natural remedies, and I see no problem with it. The woman should be in control of her own uterus--not governments, not religions, not the Bible, not men.)
 
I completely agree with you med*wom.

Whatabout islam? What does islam say about abortion?
 
Re: Re: Abortion

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Frankly, these are all-natural remedies, and I see no problem with it.
those remedies have no problems except some pain and ofcourse the nasty discease called pregnancy to be cured.;)
 
What Does The Bible Say About Abortion?

Absolutely nothing! The word "abortion" does not appear in any translation of the bible!

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

The origins of the word soul or spirit is derived from the word breath simply because from observation someone who is alive has breath and one who is dead has no breath.

Consequently an unborn baby according to Christianity is not alive and therefore has no rights, or more accurately, according to the bible.
 
Originally posted by Robban
Once again I hear on the news about the religious resistance on abortion. A man has in cold blood killed a doctor and when executed for this they wanna make him a martyr. Yes in USA, where else? :)

Question: Is there any real support on the bible for this discussion?

who wants to make him a martyr?
the usa is big fuckwit
why did he kill the doctor
it is a pretty shit post fucking stupid bitch
you are saying usa is going to exectute the use wants to make him a martyr, i think you should look at your source of information before attacking on of the oldest texts around
and secondly even if it is some religious group saying they wanted him to become a martry, find out what the relgious group is, with in the christian church there are countless little church, whom take what they wnt from the bible.
they could be some extremist christanity faith who follow everyword , word for word of the bible and even read in to it futher, i have read the bible i dont find anything in there supporting abortion, but neither anything saying it is wrong.
some one could say i dont want to buy a car because of there beliefs, do you call them stupid ( why dont you eat dog, or cat. maybe because you think it is wrong but around the world people still eat these animals.
Therefore there are laws in place in each country that is what is right and wrong, if you have your own belifes stick to them but if you break the law in following those belifes well to bad becase if those laws had never been around like fuck you would be reading this from a computer screen. we would be still uncivilised as the cave man
 
Cris:
Consequently an unborn baby according to Christianity is not alive and therefore has no rights, or more accurately, according to the bible.
Very true. The ancient accounts were written in the ignorance of an embryo developing via multitasked processes that would have both you and I finding the tiny pink lump biologically very 'unhuman'.

Jolly Rodger:
who wants to make him a martyr?
The fashionably Christian, Baptist, Evangelical, Presbysterian, Apostolic and patriotic found mostly haunting the southeastern swamps of the United States.
i think you should look at your source of information before attacking on of the oldest texts around
And I think you should look at your source of information before adhering to O-N-E of the oldest texts around. Its stolen.
well to bad becase if those laws had never been around like fuck you would be reading this from a computer screen. we would be still uncivilised as the cave man
Hmm....

Ever heard of an "auto de fe"?

If these "laws" had still been around all the stargazers, mathematicians, naturalists, biologists, and medicine men would've been roasting on stakes and man would not only never have gotten to the moon but still be dying from head colds.
 
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Cris:
That was my thought too. If that is true, that would make all the religious anti-abortion people hypocrates. In fact (hmmm) since they bend the words of the holy scripts to fit their personal oppinions that would be hybris.

Jolly:
What and why are you attacking?
The news tells me this: (ofcource this could be wrong since the TV is my only sorce)

Taking place in USA
1) Man kills doctor who performs abortion (some years ago).

2) State now execute this man for murder

3) Religious anti-abortion people protests because they think the man in a hero

4) Religious anti-abortion people thretens to make the man a martyr for being killed by authoroty because of religios belief.

Jolly, what does your sources tell you? As I assume your's are telling a different story?

Anyway, it looks to me that most of the anti-abortion people are more religious than others. Its the same here in Sweden, its the christian democrates that tries to stop abortion. So I find it interesting if there are no support for this ideas in the bible or even support for the opposite.
 
I don't know which bible you have been using, but mine says:
"You shall not murder."

That man is not a hero any more than the people who flew into the WTC were.
 
True.

But where do the anti-abortion people get their religious connection?

Do they say abortion equals murder and then refer to that line or what?

Isnt there any religious anti-abortion folks in here? This is the religious forum right? :)
 
Deut. 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee as an inheritance, and [so] blood be upon thee.

What is more innocent then a baby?

Then the Thou Shalt not Murder scripture would be another.

I know that some would argue that while the baby is forming that it is not considered a human and thus they are not committing murder, but I have an argument for that.

Michaelangelo was reportedly pushing a piece of granite down the street and his neighbor lazily asked him saying "Michaelangelo, why do you labor so much on that old stone?" Michaelangelo reportedly said ' because there is an angel that is waiting to come out.' So at what point did the old rock become the crafted angel? One would say that it is always a rock and some would say that it is what it can become. It all comes down to perspective.
Is it a human while its forming or is it what it will become or does it make a transformation from one thing to another? I would say that it is proven that what it starts out as becomes what you and I know of as a human. So at what point is it ok to stop the development potential? A newborn in the first 3 years of life develops probably more then the rest of his life. (Mentally, physically, emotionally.) So is it ok to stop the development of a babies potential at 1 or 2 seeing to it as it is still developing? I am still developing and is it ok to kill me. I think everyone continues to develop to some extent through there whole lives, so I ask again, at what point is it ok to cut off the potential?

We skirt around this question don't we. At what point does murder become murder? Is the guy that is paying a hit man to knock off someone committing a crime by premeditating it knowing it will happen? Same with abortion. It is proven on a daily basis that the baby develops to a point where it is time to come out. So we know what it will become, that is, a human. and we decide that if we cut it off now that it will somehow ease a feeling of guilt and somehow be deemed ok.

Do animals, (not that I think we are equal to animals) kill there own babies because of inconvience? Also, animals are in sense raped aren't they? Do they kill the baby because of inconvience?

Just a thought. I do not know if animals kill their babies, but I do know that for the most part they protect the youngins with their lives.
 
Quigly,

I know that some would argue that while the baby is forming that it is not considered a human and thus they are not committing murder, but I have an argument for that.
OK but while we can see reason and while we have had the benefit of science and know how new humans are formed, God didn’t appear to have had that knowledge, according to his word in the bible. In that text life began at birth with the first breath which was the arrival of the soul. An unborn child would have no soul and therefore has no life. It is not possible to kill/murder something that is not alive.

We must also remember that life was very cheap 2000 years ago and infant mortality was extremely high. Real health care that we take for granted did not exist. Spontaneous abortions/miscarriages were very common. Remember there were no vaccinations for any diseases. And there was no real concept of hygiene. It also seems highly unlikely that there would have been any formal medical procedure for causing an abortion.

So the bible has nothing to say about abortion because at the time it was written unborn child death and death of small children was very common and not unusual.

Without bible support many Christians cannot and do not flaunt any strong opinions on abortion. Unlike homosexuality where the bible says those responsible should be put to death and in the next sentence also says that those who wear clothes made from different materials should also be put to death.

So without such biblical guidance the issues of modern abortion become a matter of modern human morality and ethics, or should be, except that many Christians do try their very hardest to make it a religious issue and hence muddy the waters unnecessarily.

I am not in favor of abortions but I am not religious but like anything connected with reality the issues are not always a matter of black or white.
 
Aborting a baby is morally the same as having a period every month and not having a baby each time.
 
Chris,

Well whether religious or common law, it is still the same. The bible says Do not Murder and common law says do not murder. There is a moral connection.

Mitch,

That is nonsense. An egg has potential to have a baby,but potential is not released as just the egg. A sperm has potential to have a baby, but the potential isn't released without an egg. It is like saying that I can drive. I have a car. I can drive without a car or a car can drive without me. Yes you have potential to drive, but the potential cannot be released without the combination of the car. The car can drive, but the potential isn't released without an operator.
 
OK but while we can see reason and while we have had the benefit of science and know how new humans are formed, God didn’t appear to have had that knowledge, according to his word in the bible. In that text life began at birth with the first breath which was the arrival of the soul. An unborn child would have no soul and therefore has no life. It is not possible to kill/murder something that is not alive.
Can you prove this? On reading the text, Adam was given a soul and <em>then</em> he was alive. Only when given the breath of life was he alive. In Jeremiah, God says "Before I formed you, I knew you". So the "you"(Jerimiah) existed before birth and even before being formed physically. Also there are numerous referances to woman with child. No one would say "women with child" unless if the unborn baby was considered a child.

Aborting a baby is morally the same as having a period every month and not having a baby each time.
While it may not affect you directly, it will most certainly affect you indirectly. By blurring the lines between personhood and human life, the value of human life will be diminshed. Chris is right though, this isn't a religious issue. We just have to ask two questions. "Is the fetus alive"? Yes of course. Is the fetus a human being? Yes.
 
Okinrus,

Can you prove this?
Trying to prove anything using conflicting biblical mythologies and multiple fraudulent and dubious translations is something of a joke, although I know Christians attempt this constantly, and somehow think it is valid. However, I can fantasize just as well as Christians if not much better -

Adam was given a soul and then he was alive. Only when given the breath of life was he alive.
Yup that was a breath reference, OK.

In Jeremiah, God says "Before I formed you, I knew you". So the "you"(Jerimiah) existed before birth and even before being formed physically.
So this looks like his soul existed before his body was born. This doesn’t conflict with the myth that a soul enters a new body at the first breath, i.e. breath is the soul. If souls have always existed then this would make sense. But until that first breath the child would not be considered alive and with a soul.

Now if Jeremiah as an unborn child was aborted then presumably his soul would have to have waited in the ether somewhere until a new host became available, right?

Also there are numerous referances to woman with child. No one would say "women with child" unless if the unborn baby was considered a child.
What else are they going to call the lump of growing material in the womb? Fetus? That is a modern term. And if the child is born dead and never took a breath and hence never had a soul, then what would they call the dead body? A dead child, right?

Nah, you don’t have anything there simply becuase there isn't an alternative term.
 
So this looks like his soul existed before his body was born. This doesn’t conflict with the myth that a soul enters a new body at the first breath, i.e. breath is the soul. If souls have always existed then this would make sense. But until that first breath the child would not be considered alive and with a soul.
Of course we do know that the fetus is alive from medical science. You seem to think that christians cannot use other sources besides the bible to determine what is wrong. This is completely untrue. For the most part, all interpretations require some degree of common sense. The bible(Sirach was thrown out of Martin Luther's bible) reconizes it as well. Sirach 38:1 1
"1 Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession.
2 From God the doctor has his wisdom, and the king provides for his sustenance.
3 His knowledge makes the doctor distinguished, and gives him access to those in authority.
4 God makes the earth yield healing herbs which the prudent man should not neglect;
5 Was not the water sweetened by a twig that men might learn his power?
6 He endows men with the knowledge to glory in his mighty works,
7 Through which the doctor eases pain and the druggist prepares his medicines;
8 Thus God's creative work continues without cease in its efficacy on the surface of the earth
...
13 There are times that give him an advantage,
14 and he too beseeches God That his diagnosis may be correct and his treatment bring about a cure.
15 He who is a sinner toward his Maker will be defiant toward the doctor. "

Of course there is also bibical evidence that the fetus is alive, even able to hear, because the unborn John leaped at the sound of Mary's voice.

Yup that was a breath reference, OK.
No, that passage is not refering to just breath but God's breath of life. Deuteronomy says that only the Lord gives and takes life and that man does not live on bread alone but on every word from the mouth of God. You are alive because God said so and you know that you are alive because the Spirit says.

So this looks like his soul existed before his body was born. This doesn’t conflict with the myth that a soul enters a new body at the first breath, i.e. breath is the soul. If souls have always existed then this would make sense. But until that first breath the child would not be considered alive and with a soul.
I don't think this "myth" is a traditional christian teaching. All mothers know that their unborn child is alive. It's common sense.
The didache, a fairly old document from about 100AD, says "2:2 Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born; thou shalt not covet the goods of thy neighbour;" So we see recognization that the unborn is a child is able to be killed by the hand of man. The birth account of Jesus clearly indicates that Jesus was alive within Mary, otherwise Jesus would not be alive in us and Mary would not be the Ark of the new convenant. We can thus speculate that the reason why the Torah did not explicitly condemn abortion but only murder was that abortion was never a problem for hebrews. Child birth was something celebrated, and certainly not cursed.
 
Abortion vs the Soul

Originally posted by okinrus
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Can you prove this? On reading the text, Adam was given a soul and <em>then</em> he was alive. Only when given the breath of life was he alive. In Jeremiah, God says "Before I formed you, I knew you". So the "you"(Jerimiah) existed before birth and even before being formed physically. Also there are numerous referances to woman with child. No one would say "women with child" unless if the unborn baby was considered a child. Chris is right though, this isn't a religious issue. We just have to ask two questions. "Is the fetus alive"? Yes of course. Is the fetus a human being? Yes.
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(There is no death to the soul. An abortus, therfore, does not have a soul. It is just a piece of tissue, non-human, at the time of abortion. It is more similar to a tadpole. What is wrong is aborting a late-term infant who could sustain life on its own. Even then, the fetus has no soul, because there is no death to the soul. Earthsuits come and go. We abort them when the time is right. When we shed them, they no longer contain the spirit. The spirit doesn't change. It's eternally the same. Again, Earthsuits are TEMPORARY. We shed them. The One Spirit of God goes on forever.
 
More info on fetus development from the Quran

The Qur'an has an extensive amount of information on the growth of the human embryo and fetus, especially the former. Let's examine what the Quran say about a fetus.

[71:14] ...seeing that it is He (Allah) Who has created you in stages...
[35:11] And Allah created you from dust, then from a drop...
The first verse is a very general, yet accurate description of our creation as coming in stages. We are created in stages and that doesn't the importance of any of the stages of development. We woudn't be who we are if it was not for our fetus stage. The second verse puts some perspective on the whole affair: how man originally came from dust (Adam), and then from a drop of semen.

There are at least four specific details regarding human development in the Qur'an which modern science has revealed only within the last few centuries, and in some cases only in this present century. The first concerns the emission of semen:

[75:37] Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted?
In spite of the large amount of liquid which can be produced by a man during human intercourse, this verse emphasizes that only a small drop of it is important.

The second important detail in the Qur'an on human development is the description of the fertilizing liquid (i.e. semen):

[86:6] He (man) is created from a gushing liquid.
[76:2] We created the human from a drop which is a mixture...
[32:8] Then He (Allah) made his (Adam's) progeny from a quintessence of a despised liquid.
The second and third verses relate to the contents of semen. Modern science has established that semen is in fact a composition of different secretions which come from four different glands during ejaculation: the testicles, the seminal vesicles, the prostate gland, and the urinary tract glands. The actual sperm cells come from the testicles; the other three glands produce no fertilizing agents. The Qur'an goes farther than just informing us that semen is a mixture of liquids. It tells us in [32:8] that only the "quintessence" of the liquid is used (the "despised" comes from the fact that semen is emitted from the same place as urine, and thus may be despicable in some people's sight). The Arabic word for "quintessence" in this verse signifies extracting the absolute best out of something. The numbers tell the story: a normal ejaculation involves about 3 ml of fluid containing between 120,000,000 and 150,000,000 sperm cells. Of these cells, only one fertilizes the egg in the female.

A third detail of human development mentioned in the Qur'an concerns the newly fertilized egg:

[75:37-38] Was he (man) not a drop of semen emitted? Then he did become something leech-like which clings...
Recent observations of the fertilized egg in the womb have revealed that the egg literally implants itself into the uterine wall. It "clings" in the strongest sense, and it remains like so in the early stage of development. On top of that, the developing organism acts as a leech on the female host in the sense that it draws its sustenance directly from its mother's body .

Finally, the Qur'an gives a fascinating account of embryological development (the first three months) in the following verses (certain words have been transliterated directly from the Arabic):

[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.
[22:5] ...We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and partly unformed...
Verse [23:14] divides embryological development into four stages. The first stage picks up right after fertilization ("drop"), and is characterized by an ALAQAH or "leech-like structure" which describes how the egg implants itself into the uterus (see above). The second stage describes the embryo as evolving into a MUDGHAH which means something which has been chewed (especially a piece of meat), or which has the appearance of having been chewed. This seemingly crude description is in fact quite accurate: after the fertilized egg lodges itself in the uterus, it begins to receive its first nutrients and energy from its mother. Consequently, it begins to grow especially rapidly, and after a week or two it looks like a ragged piece of meat to the naked eye. This effect is enhanced by the development of small buds and protrusions which will eventually grow into complete organs and limbs.

The next two stages described in verse [23:14] tell of bones being made from the MUDGHAH, followed by the "clothing" of the bones with flesh or muscles. If we follow the progress of the embryo with our own eyes, we find that after approximately four weeks, a process called 'differentiation' begins, where groups of cells within the embryo transform themselves to form certain large organs. One of the earliest structures to develop in this stage is the cartilaginous basis of the human skeleton (in subsequent months, the cartilage hardens or ossifies). It is followed soon after by the appearance of a host of other organs including muscles, ears, eyes, kidneys, heart, and more. This maintains the order described in the Qur'an. Verse [23:14] concludes with the growth of the organism in the womb (and simple growth is the primary characteristic of the fetal stage) followed by its birth.

Verse [22:5] adds one more interesting note on the embryo. In this verse, the MUDGHAH is qualified with the phrase

"partly formed and partly unformed."
As alluded to above, our modern observations of embryological development have revealed how different structures and organs develop one after another through differentiation. This gives rise to unusual situations where the embryo is unevenly formed (i.e. lungs but no ears for example). [11,16]
 
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