Abortion - why or why not?

[Read OP first] Abortion^ - yes or no?


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aaqucnaona

This sentence is a lie
Valued Senior Member
So on which side of the abortion debate are you and why?

I'll go first -

"First, we are a superspecies - rising out of the dirt of the african plains, we have touched the moon. As such, with changing times must come changing habits. Evoultionarily and altrusitically, a child represents the entire goal of life - new life. The overwhelming imperative to protect the very chance for new life, sometimes even more than life itself is obvious - other than the hardwiring for the protection of the new molecules, we have an inante curiosity and anxiety for the unknown - no doubt the pleasant remains from the time when our ancestors only had their brains to go against the teeth and claws of lions and the size of mammoths. As such, we have a certain aprehension towards making decisions where we dont know all the factors - we outsource our judgement - often to authority, sometimes to tradition. The obvious advantage is that the memetic* evolution of ideas and traditions mean they will usually work. But in a rapidly changing world, memetic selection is far outstripped by mutation - new ideas are usually better in a rapidly changing context than are surviving version of older ones. Hence the push [for me, personally] to think different, to think objectively.

Second, abortion is no different in principle than domestication or agriculture - its the rightful control, as a superspecies, by humans of natural events and processes. Pro-lifers can ask me what if my mom had aborted me, but they forget is that they have already naturally lost at least one sibling. That brings me to the scantity of life - is life really sacred, in the sense of the term, whether or not in the context of theism? Is all life, atleast within our own species, worth something equal to all else? I dont think so. Why? Two problems. First, why only us? Why is the unborn chicken any less worthy of life than an unborn fetus is? Just because the chicken isnt our species? This directly leads to the 'potential argument' - the child has potential to be an einstein or augestine, the chicken doesn't. But again, its just a random draw of cards. S/He could as well be the next hitler or stalin - the point I am trying to make is that life has no inherent sanctity - life has value and the value is the result of and in proportion to the use of the life - any life is as good as the next one if they do the same thing - an abortion no more deprives us of an einstein or the parents of a child than a rotten fruit deprive the tree of procreation.

Finally, is a fetus really a person? I would have to say, no. The problem is, of course - throughout the debate - where to draw the line. And we have an excellent line already present - birth. I would like to go back a little more and suggest that the line for abortion be decided on a per-case basis - on how developed the fetus is and on how likely it is to be born and survive. That is a line for the doctors to draw, so I must leave that one hanging. But back to whether a fetus is really a person. I still have to explain why I said no - no all levels, the fetus is closer to a chick than a human - it has nothing that defines a human - thought, ideas, fears, hopes, aspirations, experiences and so on. But the catch 22 is, of course, that it can. It has the potential to be a human, which is where the comparision to the chick fails. But the argument that would substitue for that one would be this - its natural for such potentials to go wasted and tragically end. We have already lost so many greats naturally that had they all survived, we would probably be living in another galaxy by now - but that hasn't happened and mother nature is what did that.

People are conditioned by the world they are born into - the world which our ancestors have created through thousands of years of effort - a world above nature, a world that better reflect the better side-effects of the evolution of the only weapon we have - our brain. In such case, the abrupt miscarriage or accident is a reminder that nature doesn't work that way - that the universe is a fundamentally hostile place for life and our precious existence as humans is precious precisely because its fragile and hard-earned. We cannot shy away from things that follow the path of nature and not the path we have managed to create for ourself - that is the price you pay for being idealists, better than but still in and confined by, an indifferent universe. Hence we must allow as well as eccelectically use that path if we see it fit.

*I am refering to memetics in only a metaphorical sense.
^ Abortion as a concept, as an option for a procedure for anyone - for people in general, for others OR for you personally.
 
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At some point a fetus becomes a human. But, it's sometimes permissible to kill a human. If it's an integral part of your body, I say you have the right to destroy it, human or not. With ideal access to birth control, this would almost never happen except in cases of rape.
 
At some point a fetus becomes a human. But, it's sometimes permissible to kill a human. If it's an integral part of your body, I say you have the right to destroy it, human or not. With ideal access to birth control, this would almost never happen except in cases of rape.

Good point, especially since I have touched on the perspective, context, ethics and objectivity but have not on the practical and pragmatic aspects of abortion, which I dont consider myself fit or capable to fully comprehend yet. Nice to see you are filling in for that part.
 
Let the women decide what to do with their own bodies if they are over 18 years old. Under 18 they must have parent or guardian permission or have a medical emergency or been raped. The 3rd trimester is , to me, the cut off, after that the fetus should go to term and be delt with like having adoption take place.
 
Let the women decide what to do with their own bodies if they are over 18 years old. Under 18 they must have parent or guardian permission or have a medical emergency or been raped. The 3rd trimester is , to me, the cut off, after that the fetus should go to term and be delt with like having adoption take place.

how odd, you think the younger you are the better parent you will be? Because thats the effect of your opinion, firstly you would be RAISING the age of medical concent when currently (in Australia at least) its at MOST 16 and younger if you can prove that you can act in your own best intrest and that you can understand the options being offered to you. Secondly your making access to family planning MORE difficult because rather than being able to deal with it yourself you are making a scared young girl\couple go to her parents for permission and then thirdly your giving the choice to the parents who WONT be the ones responcible for that child for the next 16 years.
 
then thirdly your giving the choice to the parents

But I am trying to suggest that everyone should be involved with someone at that age or less. Without discussing something that serious with their parents first I would think that any reasonable consideration might be thrown out. At least she would have advice and more input rather than go it alone.
 
But I am trying to suggest that everyone should be involved with someone at that age or less. Without discussing something that serious with their parents first I would think that any reasonable consideration might be thrown out. At least she would have advice and more input rather than go it alone.

your not going to get impartial advice from most parents and mostly not even RATIONAL advice. They are just another complication which is going to cause MORE problems. Better off to use a service like SHine
 
Abortion isn't murder per se but according to religion and imo it can be murder until a certain point in the term of pregnancy so the line is quite fine.
 
For all the debate, ralleys, fights and even bombingS of abortion clinics doesn't it all seem trivial and small compared to GLOBAL problems: Starvation, Floods, Drought, Earthquakes, Volcanic erupitions, Wild Fires, Climate Change and OVER POPULATION. For most it is religious and moral issue on the principles of what defines or whom defines what is life and how precious a life is. Food for though by the time you finish reading this sentence and the rest of what i'm writing a child would have died of starvation and a person would have died of suicide. All it comes down to is personal choice and how the parent feels about the zygote forming in their uterus.
 
While I would never encourage anyone to kill their unborn baby, and might be the least bit upset if someone had an abortion with a baby that I played a part in creating; ultimately, it's not anyone else's body to make decisions about.
 
There may be some sound reasons for abortion in particular cases for medical reasons, the mother's health, I really think abortion is murder. The bottom line here is that a human being is exterminated. I don't understand what "rising out of the dirt of the African plains and having touched the moon' has to do with this issue. Because we've learned a bit of rocketry, we may decide who is to live and who is to die?
 
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Far be it for me to insist that someone carry an unwanted child, but if you ever saw the remains from an abortion, you might find yourself cursing the mother for letting it get that far. I think there would have to be a serious problem with the child for me to advocate an abortion, and even then I would be hesitant.
 
While I would never encourage anyone to kill their unborn baby, and might be the least bit upset if someone had an abortion with a baby that I played a part in creating; ultimately, it's not anyone else's body to make decisions about.

pro choice is NOT pro death and never will be

as the old saying goes it takes 2 to tango.. YET only 1 gets all the power
 
The guideline I think is important is to try very hard not to get pregnant or to try very hard not to cause a pregnancy. Being human should be associated with dignity for the sake of humaneness in our world.
 
While abortions are far and away not a desirable outcome of sex, the alternative to having legal, safe, and readily accessible abortions is far more evil than even a partial birth abortion could be.
 
@Oni --

Pro-choicers are not advocating death, they're advocating for a woman's right to control her own body, and that(on a daily basis) involves the death of living cells. In fact our kind of life can't survive without death, so trumping this up as some "life vs death" contest serves only to obfuscate the fact that the pro-lifers, regardless of how pure their motivations are, advocate for women to basically become the property of their unborn child. It's a step backwards for civil liberties, not forward.
 
@Oni --

Pro-choicers are not advocating death, they're advocating for a woman's right to control her own body, and that(on a daily basis) involves the death of living cells. In fact our kind of life can't survive without death, so trumping this up as some "life vs death" contest serves only to obfuscate the fact that the pro-lifers, regardless of how pure their motivations are, advocate for women to basically become the property of their unborn child. It's a step backwards for civil liberties, not forward.

I agree with all of that, but it's still killing something. The best description that I could think of was an unborn baby. Let's not get caught up on semantics though. Notice the last thing that I said in the post quoted inside of the one I was replying to was that ultimately, it's no one else's body to be making decisions about...or something to that effect.
 
How's that? It's a group of living cells, isn't it?

if you think a womans right to chose to keep or not to keep the parasite inside them is pro death you need your head checked.

cancer is a group of living cells to isnt it?

so is infection

so if you remove thoes your pro death right?

at the stage most woman get an abortion they are the same.

pro death would be.

your just another nutjob taking a womans right to choose and twisting it to wanting to kill the parasite.. because you know 99.9% of woman WANT to get pregnant just so they can go through that.
god forbid its because they know they dont want or dont have the means to raise a child
 
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