ABORTION- Post opinions here!

VAKEMP

Registered Senior Member
This thread has been started to discuss opinions on whether abortion should be illegal or not. This issue has already been discussed at length in another thread. I have started a new thread so that the topic of the other thread stays on track.

To see what has been previously posted about this topic, browse through this thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11455

...now please post your opinion!
 
Frencheneesz:
"I say stop the process before it starts." We have to see that people just WON'T stop it before it starts, so we have to focus on making less people stop it before it starts, and also how to help the people who already got it started

Ok, I am not saying we should force women to (A) get pregnant, (B) keep the baby, AND (C) go through it alone, and be forced to raise a child she didn't want in the first place.

What I am trying to say is:

If a woman gets pregnant unintentionally, it is because she had sex. Now there are only two ways that this would happen to a woman. One way is consenting to sex. The other is rape. I have pointed this out earlier. I don't think anyone can argue that. I want to stress the word unintentionally. Otherwise I know people will bring up artificial insemination, which obviously is an example of intended pregnancy.

Ok, sex is the means in which women unintentionally get pregnant.

What now? People are assuming that by not providing abortions, I think we should not assist those women. That isn't the case. I think there are still decisions that need to be made.

I think that once a woman knows she is pregnant, her first thoughts shouldn't be 'when can I get rid of this burden and move on with my life'. I understand why some women would think like that...especially if they're 16 and want to continue their education.

I want to go ahead and state the obvious now. Consentual sex is done knowing that men have sperm and women have eggs, and that if the two were to come in contact, the process I referred to earlier (in the other thread) begins.

That being said, it shouldn't come as a surprise to those young women when they become pregnant.

Ok, I will continue.

My opinion is that if a woman becomes pregnant, her 'choices' should be whether or not she wants the child once it is born. Those, I believe, are the only choices a woman should have.

This could really go in depth, but I think the alternative to abortion would be programs set up by the government (state or federal) to help women through the pregnancy process. It really doesn't have to be the government's choice. The citizen's can decide the best process (this is a little relevant to the previous thread, since I mentioned 'government'!). For example, setting up programs that would enable pregnant teenagers to complete high school with their fellow classmates. There would have to be some changes to the rules, but in a society where it has become socially acceptable to have sex at a young age, we must be willing to adapt.

There would also be programs to assist women after pregnancy. The most important one would be for women that don't want to keep their children. That's what this is all about, after all. Women that either don't want to have the burden of raising and caring for a child, or women who don't feel they are ready to be mothers yet. This program would take the child from the mother after birth, and therefore lift the burden.

I agree that having to carry a child you don't intend to keep for 9-months would be very inconvenient. It all goes back to the process. Everyone knows that when a woman becomes pregnant, that means a process has begun that will ultimately result in another human being. Eggs=nothing. Sperm=nothing. Eggs+sperm=a new life is being created. Once that process is started, I don't think the woman has the right to stop it. I think she shouldn't be forced to keep the child and be a mother either. There is an in between in where, ultimately, both will get what they want. The child will have a chance at life, and the mother will go on with hers after the pregnancy. Wouldn't this be a better deterrent than providing abortions? And better than stopping the process which creates life?

Ok, I've rambled for too long. I could continue, but I want some input (Pollux :) )
 
Why are we so moralistic about "killing" in some circumstances, yet have no problem offing 500,000 Iraqis?
 
Not really an abortion topic.

I have a problem with offing 500,000 Iraqi's. I respect their differences. I don't think we are fighting the Iraqi citizens. We are trying to give Iraqi's the freedom they deserve. I'd love to visit Baghdad some day. I don't want it to be run by a bunch of westerners, either. I want to see a country flourishing, and being able to have it's own beliefs.

When people are in power that have proven to be a threat not only to 'Zionists', but also to their own people, someone needs to intervene. Has Saddam given any hint that he can live in peace? No. He is still shooting at British and American planes, and hasn't complied with the UN resolutions. We didn't go over there and bully Saddam. He invaded Kuwait, remember? This was all his decision.

Maybe you don't watch the news, when they have former members of Saddam's army on. Maybe you don't see the many times Bush has given Saddam options. Saddam shouldn't even be in power right now. You won't see anyone in Iraq supporting the overthrow of Saddam, but you can't say it's because they like him. It's because they fear him.

I don't think anyone ever suggested intentionally killing half a million Iraqi citizens.
 
Maybe you don't see the many times Bush has given Saddam options

Are you crazy??? There were no options to begin with. Since Bush and his lackeys began hyping this whole thing a few months ago, no matter what occured he had only one intention: to get americans to support him in his attack on Iraq. Bush said that inspectors should be allowed in unconditionally, Iraq complied and agreed. Bush still wants to go to war, even if the inspectors are allowed unfettered access to the entire country. After all, as my hero Scott Ritter has said, it isn't easy to hide the facilities they're looking for. There's exhaust. There's mass transit for the materials. Ugghhh...it boggles my mind, Vakemp, how anyone can believe the bullshit our president spews at us every single day.

And, to reiterate, the government should not get involved, because it is not the government's choice, and the bureocracy that our government is would totally screw things up. It should be illegal and the woman should choose if she wants to bear the burden of pregnancy or not. Neither you nor me have any moral say in such a decision. None. It is the mother's, not the child's, and the mother's alone. I'm sorry, but the horror stories I've heard from my grandfather, a doctor, about women who attempted to get an abortion in the dark ages of the very subject are just horrific, and under your idea they would occur anyway, and people would needlessly be mutilated. It is unfair not only to the mother but the child itself.
 
There was never an option on not attacking Sadam. There were many ways the Bush administration could have phrased their goal if they wanted to give options:

We want peace in Iraq
Safety for the Iraqi people and others outside
Disarming of Iraq

But they choose their goal as; Get rid of Saddam. Clearly illustrating that their biggest concern is not peace, is not safety and is not lowering of amount of world weapons of mass destruction (though, that woudl be hugely hypocritical anyway) - it is to oust Saddam.


Anyway. The #1 reason for anti-abortion folk to be against it seems to be either religion or because "killing is wrong". There's a couple basic reasons this seems useless to myself. Religion, well, laws should never be based on your religious conviction. "Christianity says you can't have an abortion!"
"But I'm not a Christian."
"So?"

As for "killing is wrong"... If you're not religious you can probably agree that morals are entirely subjective. Laws should never be based on something 100% subjective. Saying something is "wrong" is subjective as it pertains to morals. As far as I'm concerned laws should be based on what benefits societies. And abortion is a benefit to the society.
 
If anti-abortioners want to argue that its killing something then I will argue it's part of the mother...it's not a functional being. If you want to get technical and say, we'll it breathes and its heart beats....I will argue that every cell in your body does respiration why kill them?

I consider the baby to be a human being the moment it wants to get out of the womb.

Life is fragile, life is short, life is a privlige, and if people are not prepared to take of it, then it shouldn't be there.
 
It is the mother's, not the child's, and the mother's alone.

Like I stated earlier, the murderer decides whom he kills. We call the people he kills victims. Is the fetus not deprived of life? It is a victim. If you know that fetus will grow and become a human, and you rob it of that chance, you are in essence murdering.

Murderers don't need to kill, but they do. Women who are pregnant don't need to kill the babies, but some do. Are you saying they have no alternative to killing the fetus? There is.

I'm sorry, is the burden of keeping another living being in your body too much for you to handle? How'd it get there? Oh, you had sex? Seems to me people should learn to take responsibility for their actions.

it boggles my mind, Vakemp, how anyone can believe the bullshit our president spews at us every single day.

I do try and make informed opinions, Pollux. I don't read a headline and regurgitate it here. I follow this topic as much as I have time to.

There is no proof that Saddam is an aggressor.

...except that his military is still shooting at American and British planes.

Ok, maybe I was wrong earlier. President Bush might not have given Saddam that much leniency.

The world has, though.

He invades a country. A coalition, led by the US, pushes his forces back into Iraq. We leave him in power and tell him he needs to follow our rules if he wants to stay there. It doesn't ask for much, just takes away his capabilities of being the aggressor, if he complies. He doesn't comply, and kicks weapons inspectors out in '98.

No one has bothered him since. Well, actually, the US and Britain have. We have ensured his compliance with the no-fly zones in the north and south. Now, President Bush is pissed because Saddam isn't living up to his end of the bargain. I don't see what's wrong with that. The President is tired of Saddam blowing off the UN, and the US. So now he's wrong for doing something about it?

I'm glad you all live in countries run by dictators that invade neighboring countries, are pushed back into their borders, don't comply with UN resolutions, and won't accept harsher resolutions for not complying in the first place. Why? You know how Saddam feels. You can relate to him, and have sympathy for him. Saddam is a victim. He had no choices. We want to throw him out because we're heartless bastards, not because we feel he is a threat.
 
If you know that fetus will grow and become a human, and you rob it of that chance, you are in essence murdering.

No, it's not the same. A murderer kills someone who is alive, a thinking, breathing, caring organism. A fetus is only capable of breathing. It is not alive, and to say that it will eventually be alive is a ludicrous argument. You're only killing what it is at the moment, not what it will be, because what it would have been will never exist, therefore it will not and never care.

It all comes down to destiny and fate.:cool:
 
Personally I view sapience (and thus soul) as coming in increments. I think it should be considered to rise in direct ratio to the complexity of the organism until it develops a functioning brain. After that it should be considered in more conventional ways.

I think a zygote has about as much value as a bacterium. It has human genes but so does your toe nail clipping. At fetus stage it should be considered of the same value as a salamander. As a newborn about the value of a monkey.

Of course I despise the idea of unecessary cruelty to animals and I think abortion should be done only if the mother or baby probably would die if the baby was caried to term. Another reson is if the baby would have no quality of life due to deformity, disease, or the like.


And yes, I know I am a cold calculating Bastard.
 
It all comes down to destiny and fate.

Destiny and fate...

A pregnant woman shouldn't be held accountable for having an abortion, because the fetus wasn't destined to become a human?

Let's apply this to life, then.

Once again, the murderer.

I go and kill someone on the streets. I'm not guilty of murder. It was the victim's destiny to die by my hands. Everyone I kill is therefore destined to be my victim. No need to be alarmed.

No, it's not the same. A murderer kills someone who is alive, a thinking, breathing, caring organism

I don't know what's worse: killing a 'living', breathing, caring organism, or the organism that never got the chance to live, breathe, or care.

It's all about opinions.

...but I don't think you'll ever meet a woman that wasn't scared as hell when she got an abortion, or who didn't feel that gut feeling that told her she was doing something wrong. If it is such an innocent thing to do, why are so many women who receive abortions traumatized?
 
Vamp, you're being an idiot.

Here, so far this is all you have said:

"Abortion should be illegal because murder is wrong and abortion is murder."

Now, absorb this, I don't care if it's murder or not. The word wrong implies morals and ethics, which are subjective. And any half-conscious being can explain to you that laws should not be made based on morals (unless this being is Christian). So, what basis do you make it illegal?

And don't say - it's murder! Because I don't fucking care. Murdering a living human being is illegal because it is detrimental to society. Not because "it's murder". That is not a good enough reason. You need to explain yourself.
 
"If it is such an innocent thing to do, why are so many women who receive abortions traumatized?"

Becuase their's a maternal bond. And so many women who give a child to adoption have unbelievable problems coping with that. Know why? Maternal bond. So what's the only option left? Keep the child?

I honestly can say that if you have a daughter and she gets pregnant at 15 I want to be there to see you make your daughter have a child.
 
Abortion should not only be legal, the Department of Health should launch a campaign to encourage it.
 
My opinion on abortion is that unless youre a woman you have no right to an opinion on abortion. A woman carries the child, and when the shit hits the fan in this society the woman gets stuck with the child. For men abortion is a completely theoretical concept.
Personally Im against it in most cases, Im also smart enough to recognize that Im not entitled to an opinion.
 
Tyler uses colorful words to liven up his post!

Vamp, you're being an idiot.

First off, it's VAKEMP. Just wanted to bring that to your attention, first and foremost. (and I spell it in caps, so I'm not 'yelling' at you)

So, what basis do you make it illegal?

Ok, so you want me to justify why I think murdering a fetus is the same as murdering an adult. Is that what you're saying?

And abortion is a benefit to the society.

Ok, picture this, Tyler:

Pick the person you admire most. Now picture that person never being born because the mother had an abortion.
There are so many reasons NOT to have abortions. If I had the amount of abortions that happened last year available, I'd start with that number. It's a human life. You have no right to say that the child will not benefit society.

I'm being an idiot?

You're being selfish, just like the women who get abortions.

Becuase their's a maternal bond. And so many women who give a child to adoption have unbelievable problems coping with that. Know why? Maternal bond. So what's the only option left? Keep the child?

I can almost guarantee you that the trauma the women who have abortions go through is worse than the women who have the child and give it up for adoption. The women that have the children and give them up for adoption at least have a choice. I don't think the women who have the babies and end up giving them up for adoption ever regret their decision. Maybe they regret not being the child's mother.

Have you ever seen or heard a mother say of their three year old "Damn, I should've killed him when I had the chance. I don't know why I bothered having him". I don't think so. I'm sure many women who have had abortions have regretted doing so. I know I have heard women who have had abortions say such things.

So, according to you, if something doesn't benefit society, it should be killed?

What if it were determined that you weren't a benefit to society? You're saying you would allow people to determine your worth as a human being? That's too bad. You might be sitting on your ass now, just typing away on your keyboard, but who's to say that tomorrow you won't save mankide from otherwise certain extinction? Even if it is just in your own small part. ;)

And if I had a daughter, and she got pregnant at a very young age, I would want her to have the baby. It would be her decision to keep it or not.

We learn from our mistakes. You don't learn anything if your mistakes are erased away like they never happened. That is what abortion is: A way to encourage irresponsible people to continue being irresponsible.

My next response will be at least 8 hours from now, as I am going to sleep now (0245 here).

My current count is that it's 6-1, in the favor of 'pro-choice'. Please be gentle with me, as I am holding the 'pro-life' fort all by myself, it seems...
 
"First off, it's VAKEMP"
Apologies.

"Ok, so you want me to justify why I think murdering a fetus is the same as murdering an adult. Is that what you're saying?"

No. You don't seem to understand. Saying something is murder is not reason enough to make it illegal. It does not justify it.


"Pick the person you admire most. Now picture that person never being born because the mother had an abortion.
There are so many reasons NOT to have abortions. If I had the amount of abortions that happened last year available, I'd start with that number. It's a human life. You have no right to say that the child will not benefit society."

Unfortunatly you do not understand simple logic so this debate cannot continue. I've been hallucinating for a good hour and I sitll understand this. It's not whether the hcild will benefit society or not dumbarse, it's whether or not abortion being legal will benefit or be detrimental to society.


"I can almost guarantee you that the trauma the women who have abortions go through is worse than the women who have the child and give it up for adoption"

Go get me stats. Otherwise you're just another Christian who thinks he knows the entire world without a stat to back himself up.


"So, according to you, if something doesn't benefit society, it should be killed?"

You're the dumbest human being alive. I said laws are made based on benefit/detrimnt to society.


"My current count is that it's 6-1, in the favor of 'pro-choice'. Please be gentle with me, as I am holding the 'pro-life' fort all by myself, it seems..."

Then you bestest start following logic. So far I've seen two very strong cases for anti-abortion:

The "it's muder case" - these people (like you so far) believe that murder in all cases is wrong. Here's the kicker, I don't care what's wrong. That's subjective. And laws aren't based on subjective morals.

and

The "it's against God's will" - this is a strong arguement because someone stupid enough to argue it will never learn.
 
I think there is a reason you are holding the fort by yourself. You are on the wrong end of this. That was what Roe vs. Wade was all about.

Of course this is a moral decision in one sense, it is a very personal decision on another level. That of the individual. It is very easy to sit and say what you would want. You are not the one with the problem of dealing with the pregnacy. When it cuts to the bone, there is always the potential for a birth to be life threatening. Any birth. This is the mothers' choice and should always be so. If your daughter died in child birth, how would you feel having removed that choice from her? Not like you do now, I assure you. In your private moments there would always be that nagging doubt and you know it. You may not admit it on the boards but you know deep down what I say here is true.
 
ABORTION- Post opinions here!

Well, it's a mixed bag. On one hand, I see the value of a human life. On the other hand, I see the importance of having control over ones own body. The thing that bothers me is the idea that, often, someone must die simply because two people did not take appropriate precautions. That is sad. :(
 
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