A world with out religion

-god did it again heres Israel for you oh jees thats a huge country with a lot people one great nation that feeds off my tax dollars- look israel is only around because of us and the un and to say that its a great nation is nonsense yes it may a good country in all but still it is nothing like what you just described.

- I believe i speak for most atheists when i say that- the reason that organisations and hospitals are not named or formed isbecause we do not need to prove what we can own to say we are a better people you christains and mormons do that constanly and it bugs the hell out of my friends and i.

- Tao is chinese and only chinese it can not be used for comparing other cultures in general because it like describing an apple when you are talking about an orange

yes i now christianity is different from all religions ITS POWER-HUNGRY(like the mormons)

again karma was born in india and only in India its one aspect and can not be used for a generalization

no think about it from a nonreligios point, without religion people would think that life should be cherished because it only is so long. therefore people would strive to to prolong life and its quality. people would not fight and kill eachother over the
stupidist things that we do today
-just because those were not created in a non religious world doesn't mean that there would be no one to help the weak or ill

Mst non-Christian religions believe in karma, or some other belief that would actually keep them from wanting to interfere in the pay-back that pain in this world is supposed to be all about.


uh im sorry i don't speak jiberish english please
 
Bevkay,

You seem to have missed my point entirely. But you also seem to think that atheism is an organization like religion or other such institution, there is no such thing. People generallly do not feel the need to group together to show disbelief in something foolish like religions.

But my point: Without religion there would not have been such a disaster and thousands of people would not have needed to rush to their nearest superstition as a crutch for their fear.

As for your claim that most hospitals were founded by Christians: You would need to show me the source of those statistics, but if true it doesn’t seem to have been sustained. I’ve been to many hospitals in my life and none were religious based. Those that I know now are all secular in nature.

But you seem to be overlooking probably the world’s largest secular organization dedicated to helping in such disasters – The Red Cross – and who have played and continue to play a very major role in the current disaster. Don’t be fooled by the cross symbol, it is not a religious symbol. Here are some quotes from the Red Cross website.

What is the Mission of the American Red Cross?
The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies.

Why are symbols other than a red cross used by other National Societies within the Movement?
Although the red cross is not a religious symbol, some societies view it as such. The symbol of the red crescent is used instead of the red cross by societies in most Islamic countries; and the Magen David Adom, or Red Shield of David, is used in Israel.

Humanity: The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, born of a desire to bring assistance without discrimination to the wounded on the battlefield, endeavours, in its international and national capacity, to prevent and alleviate human suffering wherever it may be found. Its purpose is to protect life and health and to ensure respect for the human being. It promotes mutual understanding, friendship, cooperation and lasting peace amongst all peoples.

Impartiality: It makes no discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions. It endeavours to relieve the suffering of individuals, being guided solely by their needs, and to give priority to the most urgent cases of distress.

Neutrality: In order to continue to enjoy the confidence of all, the Movement may not take sides in hostilities or engage at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.

Independence: The Movement is independent. The National Societies, while auxiliaries in the humanitarian services of their governments and subject to the laws of their respective countries, must always maintain their autonomy so that they may be able at all times to act in accordance with the principles of the Movement.

Cris
 
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I'm going with chris and someguy_01. I can see how religion might have been useful in the past as a means of keeping people under control, however we should move on from that and lean toward more logic based thinking. Religion no longer serves any practical purpose in society. It only serves to promote chaos when people with conflicting religions decide to kill eachother in order to please their god and enter whatever afterlife is in store for the "good".
 
*Originally posted by BevKay
A world without religion would literally be Hell. In a sense that's the definition, right?*

Hell is the grave.

See how the translators of the Bible see it.

07585 sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}
from 07592; TWOT - 2303c; n f
AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65

Notice how it was coin-flippin' time when it came to deciding whether to use "hell" or "grave."

*Originally posted by some_guy01
tao is not chritianity and has nothing to do with it*

It was borrowed from Christianity and Judaism.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way...
(John 14:6, KJV).

As you know not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so you know not the works of God who makes all.
(Ecclesiastes 11:5, KJV).

*Originally posted by Cris
Let’s all start now and put an end to the absurdity and irrationality of religions. *

Let’s all start now and put an end to the absurdity and irrationality of atheism.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. ...
(Psalms 14:1, KJV).

*Originally posted by Counterbalance
A scientist may believe in entities which he cannot observe, such as atoms or electrons, but he can do so only if he proves their existence logically, by inference from the things he does observe. A religious man, however, believes in ‘some higher unseen power’ which he cannot observe and cannot logically prove.*

I note that the scientist does not have to prove his belief in your world; he merely has to be able to "infer" it.
(note the underlined phrase)

*A God susceptible of proof, they argue, would actually wreck religion.*

Hardly, since he tells us to prove him.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Malachi 3:10, KJV).

Short form: put your money where your mouth is.

*Let someone try to take away your belief in a god, (those of you who believe) and what do you think? What do you feel? *

You're trying, and I think you're an idiot.
I feel fine.

*Originally posted by BevKay
Isn't it interesting that God's promise to Abraham and Israel (Jacob) that he would make them into a great nation and would bless them with great numbers, has been fulfilled with the State of Israel being formed in 1948.*

Sounds great, but has little to do with it.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Romans 9:6-8, KJV).

*Originally posted by some_guy01
uh im sorry i don't speak jiberish english please*

You could've fooled me.

*Originally posted by Cris
People generallly do not feel the need to group together to show disbelief in something foolish like religions. *

The Atheist Alliance
AMERICAN ATHEISTS, INC.
The Atheist Society of Australia
Atheist Community of Austin
ATHEIST COALITION
Atheist Students Association at the University of Maryland, College Park
Atheists of Northern Colorado
Atheists United

Those are just some of the As.
B-Z contain more.
 
[Tony1]As for the dog thing, you see dogs killing their own offspring. [/Tony1]

Dogs only kill their offspring when it is necessary for their survival (for instance if they are all starving and the children are all thats around), or a male will do it if he thinks the children aren't his. This is done to ensure the survival of the pack, or the survival of the male wolf's genes, this is not done mindlessly and without reason.
 
(Tony1)It was borrowed from Christianity and Judaism.

no tao was developed in China by confusous before christ was born and no it was not borrowed from Judaism, i sugest you also buy a history book

and no the bible does not count as a history book
and the quote you used is not even complete and just trails off meaning that you manipulated it to fit in

(tony1)I note that the scientist does not have to prove his belief in your world; he merely has to be able to "infer" it.

no proving your belief or hypothosis is what being a scientist is all about "infering" something will get you nowhere in science

(tony1)uh im sorry i don't speak jiberish english please*

You could've fooled me.

ha ha we are all comidians now arn't we. i was refering to this which makes no sense at all
(bevkay)Mst non-Christian religions believe in karma, or some other belief that would actually keep them from wanting to interfere in the pay-back that pain in this world is supposed to be all about.
 
Quoted from BevKay...

“Most non-Christian religions believe in karma, or some other belief that would actually keep them from wanting to interfere in the pay-back that pain in this world is supposed to be all about.”

~~~~~

I am unclear about what this sentence was meant to convey, especially this part... “keep them from wanting to interfere in the pay-back that pain in this world is supposed to be all about it.”

Karma/religious beliefs aside... (because doctrines vary worldwide)

Pain is defined as “...an unpleasant sensation, occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.”

Pain is physical or emotional. Either type of pain is a signal flag. Symptoms that help us recognize the true state of our own mental and physical well being. Symptoms that are “estimates of that which furthers your life or threatens it.”

Pain is not a good thing, except by virtue of being a signal. We can be forced to learn valuable lessons because we were (at some point) motivated by pain to do so. We can even be smart enough to learn from pain and never repeat the same mistake. But chances are excellent that we could have learned said lesson by better means before painful motivation occurred. It all depends on the choices we make. The choices that we made determined whether or not we would suffer pain--now or later; or the choices someone else made--made intentionally for or against us--or made based on any number of irrational whims.

Who has the right to pay back mankind with pain?

Where is the rock-solid proof that pain is meant to be a “pay-back?” Or even a justifiable pay-back?

What gives anyone the right to deliver this kind of evil unto any other living being?

There are two fundamental emotions: joy and suffering.

I cannot accept that suffering is the best route to joy.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
Jay said:Religion no longer serves any practical purpose in society. It only serves to promote chaos when people with conflicting religions decide to kill eachother in order to please their god and enter whatever afterlife is in store for the "good".
Click to expand...

In answer to the above quote"

Jay, Humans who use religion for their own selfish, or evil purposes, cause the chaos and the evil. Don't judge God by the actions of humans. And, Tiassa, God did not create evil. Evil is not the opposite or equivalent of good. It is good turned bad by the choices of others. Don't you get that in order for good to be chosen, there has to be something else to choose? And without free choice, where is the value of Love or Good? Example: Would it mean as much to you if the woman who was in love with you chose to love you without coercion, or would love that is forced be as valued? This is usually very obvious to us on a human level. Why can't we see that the God who gave humans our personality and our desires has that same desire to be given love freely without coercion?

and to the questions about : Quoted from BevKay...

“Most non-Christian religions believe in karma, or some other belief that would actually keep them from wanting to interfere in the pay-back that pain in this world is supposed to be all about.”

The thread topic, "A World with out Religion", is being answered by my quote. Karma, the belief that past errors are paid for in the present by pain and suffering, is what keeps suffering from being alleviated in so many cutures today.

Christianity, not based on karmic progression and reincarnation, actively advocates humanitarian action to alleviate suffering.
 
BevKay,

Thanks for the reply. I think I now understand a tad better what point you were trying to make with that sentence.

So... while it is true that some followers of various Christian groups “actively advocate humanitarian action to alleviate suffering,” it is insupportably extreme, in my view, to suggest that mankind cannot function well without religion; to suggest that a world without religion would be “a living hell.“ Granted, everyone is free to think or believe as they like. Yet I see that there is too much evidence supporting the fact that “religion” has been used as a weapon or a tool of evil throughout the history of humanity. All kinds of religion, and most certainly including Christianity.

And all kinds of evil.

Every kind of atrocity possible has been committed in the name of a religion or a god. How many millions (billions) of people have suffered? Have died or were murdered? We cannot begin to count. If we are honest, we cannot begin to give a correct and full tally. If we are very honest, we don’t even need a full tally. The evidence is clear and has been staring us in the face for ages.

Further, how much has mankind been stunted by carrying the burden of fear, pain, and guilt --the rewards of having supposedly been born into this world tainted with “original sin.” Unworthy even before sperm meets egg. Doomed to have to struggle with a faith-based philosophy that goes against the good and proper nature of man’s desire to survive without making unwarranted “sacrifices” to others, and without claiming the same is owed to him. Without having to accept things we do not know are true.

Have we truly tried to understand a different (religion-free) view regarding the purpose of our existence? Or have we hid beneath the cloaks of priests, shamans, or the shadow of a cross? I think “we” have cowered and taken what we thought was the easy way out. After all, who does not learn early in life that one will be cast out, one way or another, if they dare to declare that God and religion are a sham?

Fear...pain...and guilt are meant to be our rewards for daring to think differently.

We have seen the kind of “good” religion can bring about. On the surface there appears to be a lot of goodness. But religion (all of them created and propagated by man) has never been content to work for or against us only in the superficial aspects of our lives. It works deep in our psyches and within our souls. To help distort this reality, many have claimed that their god has a higher purpose and that man is not capable of understanding what that purpose is. We are ever unworthy of being allowed to truly choose our own fate. We are to choose heaven or hell. That is the real choice we are given. We are told that a war between good and evil is being fought. We are exhorted to believe that what is not real is real. We have been told everything under the sun and had none of it proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for all.

I actually think we have less to fear from a world without religion than we do from a world that continues to cling to such anti-man philosophies. Overall, mankind has scarcely even given the notion of a religion-free world a chance. We’ve been too busy worrying about going to hell.

Btw... I'm not one who likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Just wanted to share some thoughts, and wanted to understand where you were coming from before doing so.

Peace,

Counterbalance
 
"Fear...pain...and guilt are meant to be our rewards for daring to think differently"

What church did you go to?

Ben
 
*Originally posted by Jay Renalsds
Dogs only kill their offspring when it is necessary for their survival (for instance if they are all starving and the children are all thats around), or a male will do it if he thinks the children aren't his. This is done to ensure the survival of the pack, or the survival of the male wolf's genes, this is not done mindlessly and without reason. *

So basically, you're saying that dogs do kill each other.
That's what I was saying, too.

Based on your "not done mindlessly and without reason" comment, I assume you are against abortion?

The death toll there is up in the tens of millions since Roe vs. Wade.
I wonder if anyone is aware of the following two things...
1. Muslims are anti-abortion
2. Hitler only killed about 5 million.

*Originally posted by some_guy01
no tao was developed in China by confusous before christ was born and no it was not borrowed from Judaism, i sugest you also buy a history book *

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(Luke 3:4, KJV).

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
(Isaiah 40:3, KJV).

Oddly enough, Isaiah lived a couple of hundred years before Confucius.

*just trails off meaning that you manipulated it to fit in *

Good point. I'll quote the whole verse.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6, KJV).

*proving your belief or hypothosis is what being a scientist is all about "infering" something will get you nowhere in science *

If that's true, how do you explain the gigantic "inference" called the theory of evolution?

*Originally posted by Counterbalance
I cannot accept that suffering is the best route to joy. *

Few can accept that, and for good reason.

You wilt shew me the path of life: in your presence is fulness of joy; at your right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
(Psalms 16:11, KJV).

"You" refers to God.

*Originally posted by BevKay
God did not create evil.*

He says he did.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

*Originally posted by Counterbalance
Yet I see that there is too much evidence supporting the fact that “religion” has been used as a weapon or a tool of evil throughout the history of humanity. All kinds of religion, and most certainly including Christianity. *

You're confusing Catholicism with Christianity.
A common error, given that Catholics call themselves Christians once in a while.

*After all, who does not learn early in life that one will be cast out, one way or another, if they dare to declare that God and religion are a sham? *

If more had learned it earlier, few would try it later in life.

*Fear...pain...and guilt are meant to be our rewards for daring to think differently. *

The noble atheist "daring" to think differently!
LOL!

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
(Psalms 14:1, KJV).

The problem isn't religion, the problem is that you're fighting against God.

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
...
The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein:
...
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
(Deuteronomy 28:15-45, KJV).

That's a lot of curses.

There is a way out...

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
(Galatians 3:13, KJV).
 
Originally posted by KalvinB
"Fear...pain...and guilt are meant to be our rewards for daring to think differently"

What church did you go to?

Ben
Click to expand...

~~~~~~~


Hi Ben,

I was "raised" in the Christian faith but have attended a variety of churches over the years. I no longer claim any faith as my own. I am a non-believer.

At any rate, the point is not that a particular church requires its followers to bear the burden of these things. Religion, in all its guises, requires man to do other than what his reason tells him he should. Fear, pain, and guilt (among other things) are used to warp man's reason.

~~~~~~~

Tony, dear...

Thanks for the offer to nit-pick over trivial things, most of which cannot be proven, but I must decline. Too little time and so many other interesting threads to read.

~~~


Counterbalance
 
*Originally posted by Counterbalance
trivial things, most of which cannot be proven,*

Just your life.
 
*Originally posted by BevKay
God did not create evil.*

Tony1 says: He says he did.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).
Click to expand...


Tony1: I was speaking of moral evil, not circumstances. God says that he takes responsibility even for disasters but as the Savior of man he also is behind the blessings that come our way. Isaiah strongly sets forth the fact that God is in total control of all of life.

( Jam 1:13: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man)
 
(tony1)The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
(Isaiah 40:3, KJV).

-the way of the lord sounds like a belief in god
-the tao way involved no god, it means do not interfer with nature and let it take it course

(tony1)If that's true, how do you explain the gigantic "inference" called the theory of evolution?

its called bones that anthropologists dig up that look similar to us but have slightly different features. and yes they are the same species, their genetic make-up is very close to ours, i believe that within fifty to hundred years we will discover how genes work so that we can change their characteristics to say we could create a chimpanze fetus with a human embryo. That may sound wrong to you people but you have to remember that people are being cloned right now


(tony1)You're confusing Catholicism with Christianity.
A common error, given that Catholics call themselves Christians once in a while.
no counterbalence is right you must admit christianity has its dark side in history every religion has (well except buddhism but i guess that really a philosphy)




(tony1)*Originally posted by BevKay
God did not create evil.*

He says he did.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).


-even Christains are arguing over their own religion i love it


(tony1)The problem isn't religion, the problem is that you're fighting against God.


since the human species predate the bible by a couple of million years thats kind of funny that we are suppsoed fighting against god when the species predates is creation

you chistains need to open up and stop being so narrowminded let other religions speak and stop and listen to their ideas instead of always thinking you are the right ones.

Religion to me is like those chain letters you get. "forward this to fifty people and your crush will go out with you" everyone knows its not going to happen but they still do it anyways

-the only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance -socrates

and no socrates was not the devil not a satan worshiper he was a openminded man that never knew christianity existed
but im sure if he knew it did then he would call it evil because it brainwashes you basically and keeps you from having an openmind
 
(Tony1)But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. (/Tony1)
I dont feel cursed. I have plenty of food and I am in good health.
 
*Originally posted by BevKay
I was speaking of moral evil, not circumstances. God says that he takes responsibility even for disasters but as the Savior of man he also is behind the blessings that come our way. Isaiah strongly sets forth the fact that God is in total control of all of life.

( Jam 1:13: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man) *

Good quote there at the end.
It reveals that God is not out to torture test us to see if we will fail.

However, there are a couple of things.

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
(Matthew 4:1, KJV).

Jesus led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted by the deivl.

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Luke 22:31,32, KJV).

Satan is the tempter.
The test is to prove that we won't fail.

God had to have created moral evil as well, otherwise Satan would be a creator, too, but of evil.
He isn't a creator of any kind.

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
(Isaiah 54:16, KJV).

The very next verse is powerful.

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
(Isaiah 54:17, KJV).

Also,

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(Romans 8:28, KJV).

And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
(Malachi 3:3, KJV).

It is only evil to the wicked.
To the Christian it is the refining process.

Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
(Malachi 3:4, KJV).

The wicked don't fare quite so well.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 4:3, KJV).

Ashes.

*Originally posted by Jay Renalsds
I dont feel cursed. I have plenty of food and I am in good health. *

See previous comment.

*Originally posted by some_guy01
-the tao way involved no god, it means do not interfer with nature and let it take it course *

They missed the point.

*its called bones that anthropologists dig up that look similar to us but have slightly different features. and yes they are the same species, their genetic make-up is very close to ours,*

I'm a freelance taxonomist.
I decided to call you one species and your parents a different species.
Based on what?
Evolution, of course.

*no counterbalence is right you must admit christianity has its dark side in history every religion has (well except buddhism but i guess that really a philosphy) *

Why?
Catholicism isn't Christianity no matter how many times counterbalance says something.

*-even Christains are arguing over their own religion i love it *

When's the last time you were on an atheist MB?
There they argue over what every single word means.
I love it.

*since the human species predate the bible by a couple of million years thats kind of funny that we are suppsoed fighting against god when the species predates is creation *

That "two million" years thing is found only in textbooks.

*you chistains need to open up and stop being so narrowminded let other religions speak and stop and listen to their ideas instead of always thinking you are the right ones. *

FADH.
We don't think we are the right ones, we know.
But thanks for the offer.
We've tried it your way and your way doesn't work.

*-the only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance -socrates *

Your whizkid was kind of superstitious...

--The coldness was spreading about as far as his waist when Socrates uncovered his face — for he had covered it up — and said (they were his last words): 'Crito, we ought to offer a cock to Asclepius. See to it, and don't forget.'.--
Socrates, Last Words

Looks like he was sacrificing chickens to demons.
I'm impressed, but what was your point, again?

*i think jay feels pretty damn good right now*

Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
(1 Corinthians 10:12, KJV).
 
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