A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

[Kittamaru]

First of all late term abortions are rare. The Guttmacher Institute reports 6.2% of abortions were conducted between 13 and 15 weeks, 4.2% between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks and 0.08% after 24 weeks. The Institute estimates that 1% of all medical terminations of pregnancies are done at or after 21 weeks, poor prenatal diagnosis etc. But that's not the whole of the answer. In 2008 GI did a study on late term abortions and found the majority who had a LTA for a non medical reason were young and poor without higher education, many were African-American. You had teens who waited too long because they had no adult to go to and were afraid to speak of the pregnancy. You had women who were unable to quickly come up with the money for an abortion. Others didn't have access to a provider. Some had multiple life crises that didn't allow them to make timely decisions. There were even incidents of young women who weren't even aware they were pregnant until it began to show.

Then the solution is simple. Increase education and awareness, pass legislation to make the choice available and possible, and in general fix the underlying issues that lead to a late term abortion.

The fact that money is ever an issue in terms of medical care simply disgusts me... That we would put a price on health confounds me. We, as a nation, have the resources to provide a top level of care for our citizens... But because health care is a for profit business opportunity instead of a right, proper treatment is out if reach for many, and that which they can get still often leaves them indebted

 

[Balerion]

First of all late term abortions are rare. The Guttmacher Institute reports 6.2% of abortions were conducted between 13 and 15 weeks, 4.2% between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks and 0.08% after 24 weeks. The Institute estimates that 1% of all medical terminations of pregnancies are done at or after 21 weeks, poor prenatal diagnosis etc. But that's not the whole of the answer. In 2008 GI did a study on late term abortions and found the majority who had a LTA for a non medical reason were young and poor without higher education, many were African-American. You had teens who waited too long because they had no adult to go to and were afraid to speak of the pregnancy. You had women who were unable to quickly come up with the money for an abortion. Others didn't have access to a provider. Some had multiple life crises that didn't allow them to make timely decisions. There were even incidents of young women who weren't even aware they were pregnant until it began to show.

So give the child up for adoption.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Then the solution is simple. Increase education and awareness, pass legislation to make the choice available and possible, and in general fix the underlying issues that lead to a late term abortion.

The fact that money is ever an issue in terms of medical care simply disgusts me... That we would put a price on health confounds me. We, as a nation, have the resources to provide a top level of care for our citizens... But because health care is a for profit business opportunity instead of a right, proper treatment is out if reach for many, and that which they can get still often leaves them indebted

Ha! Yeah sure. I love the idea but its not going to happen. Why? Because there is a growing and strong wave in the US to deny a woman any access to an abortion. The humane, practical, progressive response would be exactly what you propose but there are those who don't want to a woman to have an abortion even if its in the first trimester so they legislate to make access difficult. You could increase education and awareness but where would it come from? Public schools? I can hear them crying now about how they're teaching children to kill children. Planned Parenthood used to engage in such education but we all know they're under attack. And as for money, if you have those who don't think an employer should provide insurance to pay for birth control how do you think they would react to paying for an abortion.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

So give the child up for adoption.

You have the child and give up for abortion.

 

[Kittamaru]

Ha! Yeah sure. I love the idea but its not going to happen. Why? Because there is a growing and strong wave in the US to deny a woman any access to an abortion. The humane, practical, progressive response would be exactly what you propose but there are those who don't want to a woman to have an abortion even if its in the first trimester so they legislate to make access difficult. You could increase education and awareness but where would it come from? Public schools? I can hear them crying now about how they're teaching children to kill children. Planned Parenthood used to engage in such education but we all know they're under attack. And as for money, if you have those who don't think an employer should provide insurance to pay for birth control how do you think they would react to paying for an abortion.

All fair points... And a sad fact of how our society has become so selfish and closed minded. I wish I could say that, with time things would improve... But the exact opposite seems to be true instead

 

[Gremmie]

A sense of self identity.
So, it's OK to kill someone when they're asleep.

Well... Yeah. They won't fight back.

Sorry, that was insensitive, and trolling...
I just saw an open door, and couldn't resist storming through it.

 

[Balerion]

You have the child and give up for abortion.

Just raise the abortion. Problem solved.

 

[billvon]

Look, I understand that people don't like women.

Ah, so you are on the Bells/Tiassa "everyone who disagrees with me is a misogynist" bandwagon. Good for you! More popular and definitely easier than thinking.

Someday, hopefully, many of you will feel ashamed about your past actions and beliefs.

I'm not. I'm happy with my beliefs, no matter how many people on either side of the debate I anger.

 

[billvon]

A fetus, by default, provides provocation: it makes use of the bodily function of a woman. That is something that requires consent; if a woman does not consent, then nothing should force the woman to continue that state. Again, allowing women to consent to what happens to their bodies is not something that is part of popular media and culture.

Let's take that silly argument about "using your bodily functions" to its logical conclusion.
A woman donates a kidney to another woman who desperately needs it. After eight months she changes her mind and decides that she does not want her body parts used to support someone else. The removal of the kidney will certainly cause the death of the recipient. Should she get the kidney back? Or do you hate women?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Billvon

I'm curious as to why it would interest you at all whether a woman has an abortion or not? How does it affect you?

 

[GeoffP]

Well, how does it affect you either, Lucy? In fact, how does anything that happens directly to any other person - anything in society, presumably - affect any of us?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Well, how does it affect you either, Lucy? In fact, how does anything that happens directly to any other person - anything in society, presumably - affect any of us?

I am affected. Its very personal for me. I'm a woman. I want to be able to choose how and if I get pregnant and how and if I have a child. So anything dealing with birth control and its access or abortion and its access affects me. What doesn't affect me are women who say "I would never have an abortion". That doesn't affect me. Also it doesn't affect me if a woman says "I want to abort". That has no affect on me at all.

 

[billvon]

I'm curious as to why it would interest you at all whether a woman has an abortion or not? How does it affect you?

Well, for a lot of reasons:

- Half the people in my life are women. Their rights are important to me. I think it's hypocritical to demand rights for myself that I would not want given to others.
- I'm a parent, and thus the rights of both children and the unborn are more personal to me.
- My wife is a doctor and I have learned a lot from her about fetal development and the relationship between mother and fetus/infant.
- It is an issue that is worth discussion at a level higher than:

"abortion stops a beating heart"
"a fetus? you mean a parasite?"
"denying abortion is like forcing you to donate organs"
"if you disagree with abortion on demand you hate women"
"they can't feel pain so it's really not all that bad"
"why do you want to kill babies?"
etc.

 

[GeoffP]

I am affected. Its very personal for me. I'm a woman. I want to be able to choose how and if I get pregnant and how and if I have a child. So anything dealing with birth control and its access or abortion and its access affects me.

Well, you could argue it affects you physically. What if it's the wrong choice? I don't think laissez-faire is always a good thing.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Well, you could argue it affects you physically. What if it's the wrong choice? I don't think laissez-faire is always a good thing.

It could never be the "wrong" choice because its my choice. And what's a "laissez-faire" decision anyway? Having a child or not having a child? By the way you do realize that child birth is more risky than having an abortion in the first trimester. Its not really relevant except that you speak of how things may affect a woman physically.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Well, for a lot of reasons:

- Half the people in my life are women. Their rights are important to me. I think it's hypocritical to demand rights for myself that I would not want given to others.
- I'm a parent, and thus the rights of both children and the unborn are more personal to me.
- My wife is a doctor and I have learned a lot from her about fetal development and the relationship between mother and fetus/infant.
- It is an issue that is worth discussion at a level higher than:

"abortion stops a beating heart"
"a fetus? you mean a parasite?"
"denying abortion is like forcing you to donate organs"
"if you disagree with abortion on demand you hate women"
"they can't feel pain so it's really not all that bad"
"why do you want to kill babies?"
etc.

As a parent do you think that you have the right to decide for another person whether they become a parent or not? I mean is it a choice that personally affects you as a parent? If so how? Fetal development and the relationship between mother and fetus is complex but doesn't really touch on this issue since you are speaking of forcing an unwanted pregnancy as opposed to a woman who wants a child. Its a complete myth that a woman instantly loves and wants a child if its forced on her. Resentment towards an unwanted child and child abuse and neglect have a strong relationship too.

A discussion higher than what exactly?

An abortion stops a beating heart yes it does. That's the whole point. If I have to choose between my future and that of a fetus then I should be free to choose my future. Meaning, no one outside of myself can tell me what is best for my life and future. No one. No matter their concern. Or rather especially when their concern is remote, abstract and ideological whereas for my my life is here and now and fucking real. The fact that some arbitrary stranger who claims concern can affect my access to abortion or birth control is frightening, invasive and hell even rude.

 

[Aqueous Id]

I'm curious as to why it would interest you at all whether a woman has an abortion or not? How does it affect you?

It doesn't affect me at all. What affects me--all of us--is the constant attack on Roe v Wade, still going strong after over 40 years. That attack may not affect any of us directly, but there are plenty of policy matters the Fundies are taking down with Roe, and these most certainly will affect nearly all of us. They will affect people the world over, because the US domestic and foreign policy priorities have been overtaken by the cranks, liars and whiners of Fundamentalism (and in a few cases some of the mainstream Christian churches). They have seized the mics and podiums and pushed the most important matters to the back burner. The aggregate affect is huge--to the hundreds of thousands of victims of US warfare, to the genocide in Darfur, to the slaughter and violence in Syria and Ukraine, to every domestic issue--from the cost of health care, the economy, the environment, to just about everything that affects our daily lives.

I would also add that, while a particular woman's choices, if interfered with, do not affect me directly, then the watering down of her rights affects me on some invisible scale. Somewhere else I lose if she loses. We all do. Just as any crime is prosecuted as an invasion of "the peace of the people" then these policy attacks are doing the same. They are tantamount to crimes in that they chip away at the strength and stability of laws which guarantee us that peace.

 

[billvon]

As a parent do you think that you have the right to know decide for another person whether they become a parent or not?

No. It's up to them.

A discussion higher than what exactly?

Than the sort of emotional one-liners, absurd stereotypes and instant pigeonholing that occurs in most of the abortion threads here.

An abortion stops a beating heart yes it does. That's the whole point. If I have to choose between my future and that of a fetus then I should be free to choose my future.

Agreed.
Now, here's a question. Let's say you are eight months pregnant, and you want the pregnancy terminated. At your request doctors remove the fetus. Once it is out of your body, and no longer affecting you - should you have the right to kill it?

Meaning, no one outside of myself can tell me what is best for my life and future. No one.

Well, that's not generally true. In the US you have a lot of rights of self-determination, but those generally do not extend to harming others and/or putting others at risk. (Examples abound.)

 

[Trippy]

Three pages, 20 posts per page since I checked up on this thread.

Not sure I feel like even trying to catch up given the day I've had.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

It doesn't affect me at all. What affects me--all of us--is the constant attack on Roe v Wade, still going strong after over 40 years. That attack may not affect any of us directly, but there are plenty of policy matters the Fundies are taking down with Roe, and these most certainly will affect nearly all of us. They will affect people the world over, because the US domestic and foreign policy priorities have been overtaken by the cranks, liars and whiners of Fundamentalism (and in a few cases some of the mainstream Christian churches). They have seized the mics and podiums and pushed the most important matters to the back burner. The aggregate affect is huge--to the hundreds of thousands of victims of US warfare, to the genocide in Darfur, to the slaughter and violence in Syria and Ukraine, to every domestic issue--from the cost of health care, the economy, the environment, to just about everything that affects our daily lives.

I would also add that, while a particular woman's choices, if interfered with, do not affect me directly, then the watering down of her rights affects me on some invisible scale. Somewhere else I lose if she loses. We all do. Just as any crime is prosecuted as an invasion of "the peace of the people" then these policy attacks are doing the same. They are tantamount to crimes in that they chip away at the strength and stability of laws which guarantee us that peace.

Wow. That was a passionate post. I'm am truly truly flabbergasted by those who want to take away the legal right to an abortion and then even limit access to birth control to boot. I mean you're right that we all lose in a sense because what would the world look like if they had their way? It wouldn't mean that people are going to stop having unprotected sex. It won't mean that people will stop having sex. What it most definitely will mean is that poor, uneducated, young and unmarried women will be forced to have baby after baby or die trying to get out of the problem. Its happened before. When abortion was illegal it DIDN'T stop unwanted pregnancies.

The problem isn't that some people disagree with abortion. There are a lot of people who would never have an abortion or even condone abortion but don't actively try and restrict it. No the problem is with those fundies as you call them. Sometimes I think they should just get what they wish for. Then all of these so called irresponsible women, mostly young, mostly poor, mostly minority, mostly uneducated will have their babies, one after the other most likely. Then we shall truly see who inherits the earth. I was commenting in another thread that in 2008 the CDC reported the US ranked 29th in infant mortality but I don't hear anyone crying out about these stats when its babies dying and those babies are wanted. I also commented that 15.9 million children under 18 in the United States live in households where they are unable to consistently access enough nutritious food necessary for a healthy life. Yet no one says a peep about that. Yet they claim to care about children. I just don't understand it.