A religious question
- Thread starter Michael
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I was just having a discussion with another Indian (Catholic) girl today on how different religious concepts are in the East and West. I was not really surprised to find that we shared the same notions about Western religion. It seems to us that in the West there is no definition between spirituality and materialism. Perhaps it is just a difference in the way of thinking? We find no incongruencies between having many gods and living a religious life surrounded by different notions of what God represents to different individuals. To us it is comparable to needing energy to survive and yet having different ideas of what source of energy is considered appropriate for ingestion, like being vegetarian or avoiding pork. There is no desire to have everyone following the same notions regardless of whether it is religion or dietary practice.
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Do you not value time? Time is after all, a fraction of eternity.
And a vision of immortality is not restricted to theists, there are those who dream of downloading minds into machines or who cryogenically freeze themselves in the hope of future revival.
Oh noooo... I'm starting to think Grrrr.....
OK, lets put the God-head aside. Maybe it’s better to focus on humans. Would you say (being …. …. …. Sufi?) that Mohammed, a messenger of the God-head, is to be exulted over humans that are not messengers of the God-head? Or is it that Mohammed is equal to all life – no better – no worse?
OK, lets put the God-head aside. Maybe it’s better to focus on humans. Would you say (being …. …. …. Sufi?) that Mohammed, a messenger of the God-head, is to be exulted over humans that are not messengers of the God-head? Or is it that Mohammed is equal to all life – no better – no worse?
Oh noooo... I'm starting to think Grrrr.....
OK, lets put the God-head aside. Maybe it’s better to focus on humans. Would you say (being …. …. …. Sufi?) that Mohammed, a messenger of the God-head, is to be exulted over humans that are not messengers of the God-head? Or is it that Mohammed is equal to all life – no better – no worse?
Mohammed is only a man.
Say to them (O Muhammad) "I am only a man like you..." [18:111]
True, if tomorrow some scientist stated that the aging process could be reversed with a pill, I think most people would accept it and take the pill in the hope of prolonging life. To me that's the main reason why most people worship.Do you not value time? Time is after all, a fraction of eternity.
And a vision of immortality is not restricted to theists, there are those who dream of downloading minds into machines or who cryogenically freeze themselves in the hope of future revival.
The hope of a life after a death.
Even friends of mine who don't believe in God(s) do believe in Ghosts!!?? And think they will become a Ghost?
That’s the funny thing about most Atheists. It not that we wouldn’t like to believe in a Life after we die – it’s just that we lack the belief it will happen. If it were possible - I think most Atheists would be happy to accept life after death or extend their present life.
Regardless, if humans retain their human nature in that we retain the nature of our memory (as it is now) - even if we could extend our life for 10000 years or live in a heaven for as long, that person – 10000 years from now, would be as distantly removed from the person we are now so as they may as well be a great great great… grandchild anyway.
There’s no two ways about it “we” will end.
If we were to download ourselves into a machine we would no longer be “human” unless we were able to mimick memory and conscious but as I mentioned before, after enough time we wouldn’t be the person who we know to be ourselves anymore anyway.
MII
I agree to that - but was Muhammad any greater or lesser than any other man (or woman for that matter)? Has there ever been a man greater than Muhammad or are all men equal?
No. Using that comparison one would conclude that we are made of the same as God only smaller. God is not a part of our universe and is perfect. We are part of His universe and we are not perfect. The thing we have in common is we both exist. From that point on all things diverge.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
All men are equal, though some distinguish themselves by good action. One tends to look up to people who teach by example, like Muhammed did, but this is respect and should not be confused with worship.
One might consider Jesus to be another such special man.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/jesus02.htm
The nature of god is unlimited. The nature of the living entity is limited. The nature of god is infallible. The nature of the living entity is fallible - I remember reading once about a farside cartoon by larson - it had god on a trivia quiz verses a frustrated brainy nerd (the scores were something like god - 276 alfred - 0) - larson was saying that it wouldn't be appropriate for alfred to even have a score of 1.
There is a quote from Isopanisad
Iso Invocation: The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.
God has the ability to emmanate complete wholes without suffering any dimunition - simiarly he can absorb complete wholes without undergoing an increase - for god 1+1=1 and 1-1=1 - he remains eternally unchanged
BS 5.35: He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore.
Two questions I thought of while at the gym (just returned).
1) If Muhammed is no better or no worse than any other man, why did he have more than 4 wives? I seem to remember someone telling me only he got to have more than 4 wives and everyone else only got a maximum of 4.
2) This is a personal question so feel free not to answer but the 4 wives thing got me thinking: As a female Muslim, would you be happy with a husband that took 3 other wives after you were married?
3) Non personal:
- Why do you suppose God granted men the right to have 4 wives and didn't grant women the right to have 4 husbands (In some traditional Tibetan families the women could have multiple husbands - usually brothers - so it isn’t that society can not function with women having multiple husbands – Tibet actually functioned better in this manner.
- When answering the above question: Then why stop at 4?
Michael II
About reincarnation and life after death, one thing that sticks out to me is that we are not needed to make us, we are concieved by our parents when we dont exist, so after a person dies, if a man and a womens genetic code combine to form that specific persons genetic code that person would be born again.
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unless genetics merely refers to the mechanics of the body as opposed to the desires of the driver
That rule actually came much later during his Prophethood (after he had 11 wives) and he was given exception.
There is always divorce. Marriage is not a sacrament in Islam, its a mutually signed legal contract with prenuptial agreements that favor women (mehr). A woman can divorce a man if she does not care to live with him anymore. I was not brought up in a society where multiple wives are de rigeur so it would not be acceptable to me. It is not acceptable to several women who are brought up in such societies either.
At the time of creating this rule, Muslims were engaged in war against (and were heavily outnumbered by) the Meccans and there were too many war widows . The practice of four wives is meant as a consideration for the protection of war widows and orphans who may otherwise in war time be reduced to poverty or suffer indignity. The injunction of treating all wives equally itself makes it difficult for a man to have more than one and if she divorces him, he loses his children too since women are automatically granted custody.
Even in Saudi Arabia, where the practice has been most exploited, it is not seen in the educated or in cities, usually only in the rural areas. There too very few have four wives and the reasons are usually economic, since the government confers benefits depending on the number of children so larger families stand to gain. Marriage in such societies is also viewed differently from say, a Western society, and is a social relationship, not one based on love, but based on politics and economics (this is also true of arranged marriages in India).
Polyandry was actually practised in India too, in the Nair community (which follows a matrilineal system of inheritance).
Probably the number required at the time to ensure that most widows gained protection?
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Christians would say Jesus!
Errr... "Let us make man in our own image" ? Was that not a statement of god?
Evidence? How the hell do you know this? or is it, that you just believe this, and have "faith" to be it so?
God is supposedly "unknowable, incomprehensible" yet there are many theist advocates who speak BS like this! How do you know this?
Godless
SB 10.14.7: In time, learned philosophers or scientists might be able to count all the atoms of the earth, the particles of snow, or perhaps even the shining molecules radiating from the sun, the stars and other luminaries. But among these learned men, who could possibly count the unlimited transcendental qualities possessed by You, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who have descended onto the surface of the earth for the benefit of all living entities?
SB 10.14.7: In time, learned philosophers or scientists might be able to count all the atoms of the earth, the particles of snow, or perhaps even the shining molecules radiating from the sun, the stars and other luminaries. But among these learned men, who could possibly count the unlimited transcendental qualities possessed by You, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who have descended onto the surface of the earth for the benefit of all living entities?
So how do you determine that god is not real?