a question for Islam from a western mind

[Quantum Quack]

Islam: can true belief be achieved at the end of a gun?

Can true belief ever be achieved by controlling a persons thoughts and actions?

When a man prays to mecca how can you be sure he isn't praying to a cross instead?

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Re: Islam: can true belief be achieved at the end of a gun?

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Can true belief ever be achieved by controlling a persons thoughts and actions?

When a man prays to mecca how can you be sure he isn't praying to a cross instead?

You see, your questions are coming from christian background(even if you are not christian ).

Islam is totally different from christianity, we dont have MIDDLE MEN between me and Allah (the arabic word for God ), no one control my thoughts and actions, I decide whether to fast today or not ( we are now in RAMADAN, the month of fasting ).

regarding your second question, muslims DONT pray to Mecca, we turn our prayers matts toward mecca, but we dont pray to mecca, we pray to Allah almighty, the superior sole only God.

here are some links which might help you understand what is islam all about:

http://www.harunyahya.com

http://www.islamworld.net

kind regards.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Proud Syrian, with all due repect I am asking I feel very simple questions about the veracity of belief.


It leads on to other examples of what I feel are misguided notions of how to generate genuine belief.

So please can you and others read the questions again and may be if you feel able enter in to a discussion on the nature of true belief.

 

[James R]

<i>Can true belief ever be achieved by controlling a persons thoughts and actions?</i>

I'd say yes. If you can control a person's thoughts, you can make them believe pretty much anything.

There are many cults which do exactly that. e.g. scientology.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Can true belief ever be achieved by controlling a persons thoughts and actions?

Yes and no. People can still pray to their Christian God even if it looks like they're praying to Allah. However, if you control a persons thought process, then you control the person completely.

When a man prays to mecca how can you be sure he isn't praying to a cross instead?

You can't.

 

[Quantum Quack]

you see no distinction between the thought and the heart?

'Tis true that the thoughts can be controlled somewhat and I suppose even the heart but is this true belief or is it forced belief.

Which one in the longer term is more sustainable?

 

[Raithere]

Re: Re: Islam: can true belief be achieved at the end of a gun?

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Islam is totally different from christianity, we dont have MIDDLE MEN between me and Allah (the arabic word for God ), no one control my thoughts and actions, I decide whether to fast today or not ( we are now in RAMADAN, the month of fasting ).

Just a quick correction:

Intercessory doctrine is limited primarily to Catholicism. Many Christians do not believe in this doctrine but in a direct relationship with Jesus/God.

~Raithere

 

[Quantum Quack]

with out wanting to be too contraversial

The actions of religious fundementalists on that tradgic day in September on the people of New York signalled the death knell for conventional and fundementalist religion.

The acts of insanity by all religious groups can only destroy their religions in the end. The more acts of insanity the quicker the end.

History of atrocity due to religious belief is sickening to any reasonable person. And in the end these insanities will be forced to cease.

Religion faces a very bumpy road ahead and unfortunately we all feel the bumps whether we believe or not.

You can only be fooled for so long

This is only my view.....and please accept it as such.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Proud Syrian, with all due repect I am asking I feel very simple questions about the veracity of belief.


It leads on to other examples of what I feel are misguided notions of how to generate genuine belief.

So please can you and others read the questions again and may be if you feel able enter in to a discussion on the nature of true belief.

Well my friend, if you are asking GENERAL QUESTION about belief, then REMOVE the word ISLAM from your thread title, thank you.

 

[Quantum Quack]

PS
Fair point.

The reason I included Islam in the title was because in the world that I know of as a western person, Islam shows to me the extreme desire to convert others to their faith so much so that some are prepared to use the threat of violence to achieve their cause.

Christianity in the past can not plead innocense to this type of action but now adays christianity seems to have learned not to.

How long will it be before Islam followers understand that violent evangalism is an excersise in futility?

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
PS
Fair point.

The reason I included Islam in the title was because in the world that I know of as a western person, Islam shows to me the extreme desire to convert others to their faith so much so that some are prepared to use the threat of violence to achieve their cause.

Can you please give some examples and elaborate a little more?

Thank you

 

[Pakman]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
The reason I included Islam in the title was because in the world that I know of as a western person, Islam shows to me the extreme desire to convert others to their faith so much so that some are prepared to use the threat of violence to achieve their cause.

Greetings Quantum Quack,

Are you referring to the extremist and radical groups in the Middle East? I don't think these people are going around converting people. They are more of anti-American and they rather not see any other religon on their land. They are being ignorant which is not a good thing and one thing that Islam says to avoid. It says plainly to live in tolerance with people of other faiths.

Also, if these men were to go converting people, that is something Islam does not stand for. Plus, man has the ability to choose his faith. As I have said many times, these men to not represent Islam.

Also, perhaps I am mistaken and you might be referring to something else that I am not aware of?

Thanks.

 

[Quantum Quack]

you are quite right in what you say. Maybe as with others I have developed a certain concern due to the extremes we have witnessed by hmmmm....radical fundamentalism.

Unfortunately we in Australia a lot of civilians in a bombing that occured in Bali. In the name of Islam and in the name of destroying the American "infidel". True, Islamic persons in Australia were also outraged by this atrocity but were tarred with the brush all the same.

All the same Islam appears to be a rather aggressive faith in it's attitudes towards non-believers and the preparedness to use violence is apparent.

Maybe this is what I am picking up on. This preparedness to use violence. and rigorous regulation to enforce belief.

AS a western person watching film footage of covered women being beaten I feel quite sickened.

Is this uderstandable to the Islamic person that beating women would sicken any reasonable person who witnesses it?

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Quantam Quack

1) The idea of Islam as being agressively imposed religiously upon others is not only incorrect in your argument , it is historically inaccurate which leaves little foundation for such practices today .

2) As you mention Bali , can you perhaps put matters into perspective ? Australian lives are worth no more than Indonesian lives , do not think that a bombing on a disco stands out in any way in compare to the suffering Indonesia has been going through . To me what is truly disgusting is how loaded peoples can go year in year out on holidays partying in disco's when in the same country 14 year old girls work in intoxicating lollypop-factory's trying to make a living for their impovershed families .

3) As you mention the disgust of a beaten woman , which I most certainly share with you , I must wonder how your "western" mind responds to marginality , it seems as if it is complete ignored . We live in a world of billions , is one beaten woman what your "western" mind worries about ? Perhaps you should worry about thousands starving and tonnes of bombes being dropped on civillians instead .

Also you seem to care little for marginality within the Islamic world itself , is it your intention to point out extremicies ? Why do you point it out as if it has value other than marginal ?

 

[Quantum Quack]

You are quite right in saying I have lost perspective on this issue.

And the fact that it is easy to do so is no excuse.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
PS
Fair point.

The reason I included Islam in the title was because in the world that I know of as a western person, Islam shows to me the extreme desire to convert others to their faith so much so that some are prepared to use the threat of violence to achieve their cause.

How long will it be before Islam followers understand that violent evangalism is an excersise in futility?

Can you show me some proofs or examples of where muslims use violence to convert people to Islam in our modern world ????

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: Re: Islam: can true belief be achieved at the end of a gun?

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
You see, your questions are coming from christian background(even if you are not christian ).

So, you are saying that anyone that comes from a Christian &/or Western background, can not know the truth, since apparently only muslims do? How funny, that's mind control & cult behavior that you are espousing! So, to know the truth, you must give up your beliefs, your ideas, logic, or thinking & believe only the
TRUE
religion? That’s the start of brain-washing, I thought you were cultural imperialists (wanting everybody to believe in an arab god, become arabs), but you are more a cult, wanting to brain-wash the masses into conformity.

Islam is totally different from christianity,

Circular thinking, circular beliefs, islam is a cult, islam is backwards Christianity, you believe everything that that backward angel believes, & that backward prophet, look in the mirror, you do not believe in God, you believe in dog, Tell us, what did your prophet do? Why only war, rape, pillage, child molesting, liar. A fine example for the ages, a fine example for the masses, a fine example for us all. Let’s use him as our example, let's start now, right?

 

[Supermalek]

quote origionally posted by Randolfo
I thought you were cultural imperialists (wanting everybody to believe in an arab god, become arabs),

WTF? Where did this come from? How can a non arab become an arab? How can somebody change races?

I smell bullshit!!!

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Supermalek
WTF? Where did this come from?

history if you check it

How can a non arab become an arab?

glad you asked, by being conquered by cultural imperialists. When arab armies swept through the old Roman & Byzantine Empires, did they not convert most people to being arabs? what happened to all the Assyrians, the Arameans, the Egyptians? Are not most of those peoples part of the arab world now? Do they not consider themselves arabs? So what happened to the Assyrians (in what is now Iraq), that used to strike terror to the ancient world? what happened to the Arameans (in what is now Syria), that used to hold their own in battle with Israelite, Greek, & Romans armies? (and their language that used to be the langua franca of what now is the middle east). What happened to the pharaonic Egyptians that used to influence the culture of the ancient world & left a legacy that people still marvel at? Those that didn't convert, they became the Chritian minority of those countries, the dhimmis. For that matter, what happened to the ancient Libyans, that predate arabs by thousands of years, that fought wit h & against Egypt, Rome & Cartage? They weren’t arabs then, what happened? When Italy conquered Libya, did Italian not become the official language? Did not the Italians expect Libya to become a part of the new Fascists Italian Empire? It just didn't stick! Arabism stuck, islam stuck, get the picture?

How can somebody change races?

arabs are an ethnicity, a national group, an ideal (a dream to pan-arabists like Nasser & Kaddafi), not a race. arabs are bound by history, language, ideas, ideals, religion, culture. a Mexican converting to islam, then moving to an arab country would soon cease being Mexican after a few generations & become arab. Don't believe me? check your history, tell everyone what happened to the original Egyptians? or Libyans?

I smell bullshit!!!

funny, smells like a rose to me?

 

[Quantum Quack]

can I ask your opinion as to the state of the arab world today?


Maybe thats a good question in it self.

What has the faith achieved for the followers?