A question for atheists
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Theoryofrelativity said:
Most if not all share the ideal that a god, and we're not sure which one, created the universe and ALL that is within it, including the other gods, cancer, ignorance, etc.
You answered your own question.
Yet, if you were told that from birth throughout most of your life, you'd probably believe it.
Once again, you answered your own question.
Expectations? No.
I have always been an atheist. I have never had a belief in any kind of god, (or any kind of pink unicorn for that matter). One day someone stated there was such a being and defined that being for me. I still do not believe in such a being, but needless to say - it is not my expectations, but that which has been told to me.
Although religious people have their own specific versions of god, they all generally seem to agree that this god or gods created everything. Sure, there are a few that are actually smart enough to realise they cannot argue with evolution, and as such just give their god the credit for pushing the 'start' button - however, this is still quite rare.
Now, clearly you are not one of the typical religious people that believes god created everything, so I hereby ask who or what did? Did cancer just spring from nowhere? Did it create itself? Please, I'm intrigued.
They don't. They refute the explanations given to them by the religious.
You would refute the nature of pink unicorns if there were several billion people trying to shove it down your throat.
Why? I don't believe klingons exist but I will happily debate Star Trek.
And if there were a further several billion people all saying something similar, forcing it upon your children, knocking on your door every day trying to sell you the pink unicorn healing guide, and your own country going to kill people from another country all because the pink unicorn said to?
Now you're learning.
KennyJC said:
Of course not, you are presuming to know god? How can you know God if he doesn't exist, it is you who is confused, you seem like you believe in god but reject him? Otherwise how can you tell me that my belief is wrong?
If you told me you believed pink unicorns had healing powers but could not fly, I would not tell you that I do not believe in pink unicorns but actually they do fly! This is the absurdity of your point.
You do not believe in a God yet you tell me my idea of god (and you have NO clue as to the nature of that idea) is wrong and yours is right? How the heck does that work?
SnakeLord said:
Exactly where you think it came from of course?
My vague knowledge is that cancer is dormant in us all and some things trigger it off. Our crap diet, pollution and lifestyle and stress all play a part in that trigger and increasing it.
You know no-one has ever asked me what 'god' is to me, but MANY have told me what 'god' is to me. Just as I cannot presume to know the nature of god, you cannot presume to know me, yet you do? why? Why do you presume to know someone you have never seen, never met, never spoken to. Do you believe in me snakelord? Has my interaction with you caused you to believe I exist and within that you have 'created' a character for me and presume to know me? Many religious and atheists do this with god. A little interaction is all it takes to springlaod a lot of hypothetical nonsense. Why do not you just accept all you know of me is the words you have read, this is the limit of your knowledge of me, why go deeper? Becuase there is an innate human need to do so is why.
All I know of god is the limit of my experience, I can ponder, but I cannot presume to know anything beyond the limit of that experience and those observations.
THIS is the difference between you and I, and the difference between me and every atheist or theist who presumes to define god.
I would ask that you show the decency to answer the question I asked you instead of thinking you can answer it by making some assumption that you know what I would say or what I think.
Ok, but where did it come from? How did dormant cancer cells come into being - along with the ability to 'trigger' in 1 in 3 people?
I am currently asking. You're currently refusing to give an answer.
I didn't presume anything, I asked a question. As an answer to that you presume to know what I think. Mind answering the question now?
Well, I'm trying to avoid presumption by asking questions. Alas you seemingly wont answer them without presuming that you know exactly what I do or do not think. Why do you do that when you've never met me or spoken to me?
Answer the question.
Well, then how much worse must it be on the reverse side given that you're now telling me exactly what I think? Mind answering the question now?
What's the difference?
SnakeLord said:
How can I tell you where cancer came from? If you don't know how should I? Does anyone know? Are you now telling me I am master of the universe? I should know the origins of cancer and everything else? I did answer your question, I answered it with the tiny bit of information I have and explained I do not know more than it is possible to know. I am NOT going to GUESS? Are you? You tell me what the origins of cancer are? You questioning is flawed and irrelevant to this thread.
THIS thread is not about me or God, it is about exploring what it is in humans that makes us 'need' something more, and does that need exist more in theists than atheists and if so why, and it then went further to explore the origins of 'need' and what makes an atheists disblieve and athiest believe and so on and so forth. You want to argue about God go to another thread, this is not a debating thread it is an exploratory one, where we hope to learn something new not just BANG on the same old crap that goes on in every other religious thread.
You know the subject matter was very interesting.
Do atheist pray in times of trouble?
No!
Do atheist hope in times of trouble?
Hope is not praying. As explained by Wes, and latter Cype "I believe".
Anyone who calls Q a troll, is redundantly ignorant. Q has been here longer than most, a troll is some one who hits forums with few posts to start a flame war amongs it's members, or plainly advertises their website, book, or beliefs, and splits the scene. Obviously Q is neither of these.
You may have found his posts condescending, but he was not trolling, funny how you fail to see logic when it's appropiately aplied. Theist dont have much logic, though not all of them can be this freaking ignorant.
My personal background is religious, so it's kind like inbread, to mention god, when conversing with others, the mayority of people are theists, so I do use the passages: "Thank god things turned out well" God only knows or I hope to god she's alright. But I see it merely as a form of semantics.
Godless
Do atheist pray in times of trouble?
No!
Do atheist hope in times of trouble?
Hope is not praying. As explained by Wes, and latter Cype "I believe".
Anyone who calls Q a troll, is redundantly ignorant. Q has been here longer than most, a troll is some one who hits forums with few posts to start a flame war amongs it's members, or plainly advertises their website, book, or beliefs, and splits the scene. Obviously Q is neither of these.
You may have found his posts condescending, but he was not trolling, funny how you fail to see logic when it's appropiately aplied. Theist dont have much logic, though not all of them can be this freaking ignorant.
My personal background is religious, so it's kind like inbread, to mention god, when conversing with others, the mayority of people are theists, so I do use the passages: "Thank god things turned out well" God only knows or I hope to god she's alright. But I see it merely as a form of semantics.
Godless
Thank you to those of you who recognised what the thread is about and your valuable conrtibutions to this thread.
(ps godless I NEVER asked if atheists prayed..I suggest you read the text more closely next time before you go on 'rant' mode)
My brief conclusions:
Babies then children have an awareness of omnipotence, first in themselves, and then of their parent. When they realise the parent is 'flawed' this comforting feeling they had form believing they and then parents were omnipotent is left 'wanting'. This may be what makes us susceptible to religion and belief in God, along with fear of imminent death it is a 'safe, comforting' place to be.
So what of those who are not left 'wanting' and do not have this 'need'. Maybe due to certain family circumstances they never had this feeling of omnipotence in selves or parent and so the 'need' to continue with this 'role' in their lives was absent. Thus they are NOT susceptible to god, and with modern science desiring to explain it all away, and atheists accepting the religious version of god, the two disciplines are thus incompatible and hence atheist.
Then there are those who were raised with religion, forceably so and hence reject it and God with venom, retaliation. Or they did believe but then got hung up about cancer (like snakelord) blamed God, so rejected god and became atheist.
Then there are those who aren't too concerned either way, trying to look at
the topic objectively, they may be agnostic or athesist until some proof presents itself. But the desire for a god to be real is present, just not the belief.
Then there are those with no religious ubringing or teaching, but have a belief system based on experience and observation. This belief system does not have any roots in religion and so is not bogged down with their 'definition' of god or any associated 'burning in hell' dogma. It's about observing a reassurring prescence in their life. With no presumptions as to the nature of this 'God'.
No doubt there are lots of other catagories too.
(ps godless I NEVER asked if atheists prayed..I suggest you read the text more closely next time before you go on 'rant' mode)
My brief conclusions:
Babies then children have an awareness of omnipotence, first in themselves, and then of their parent. When they realise the parent is 'flawed' this comforting feeling they had form believing they and then parents were omnipotent is left 'wanting'. This may be what makes us susceptible to religion and belief in God, along with fear of imminent death it is a 'safe, comforting' place to be.
So what of those who are not left 'wanting' and do not have this 'need'. Maybe due to certain family circumstances they never had this feeling of omnipotence in selves or parent and so the 'need' to continue with this 'role' in their lives was absent. Thus they are NOT susceptible to god, and with modern science desiring to explain it all away, and atheists accepting the religious version of god, the two disciplines are thus incompatible and hence atheist.
Then there are those who were raised with religion, forceably so and hence reject it and God with venom, retaliation. Or they did believe but then got hung up about cancer (like snakelord) blamed God, so rejected god and became atheist.
Then there are those who aren't too concerned either way, trying to look at
the topic objectively, they may be agnostic or athesist until some proof presents itself. But the desire for a god to be real is present, just not the belief.
Then there are those with no religious ubringing or teaching, but have a belief system based on experience and observation. This belief system does not have any roots in religion and so is not bogged down with their 'definition' of god or any associated 'burning in hell' dogma. It's about observing a reassurring prescence in their life. With no presumptions as to the nature of this 'God'.
No doubt there are lots of other catagories too.
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Ah! Riiiiightttt! they know exactly when they craped their diapers. That's is about how omnipotent your god is!
Did you just learn this new word? Omnipotence? really dood you need to look up the meaning of this word, no one feels omnipotence...No scratch that, only idiots theist, feel omnipotent, untill someone like Q smashes their illusion
Godless
Theoryofrelativity said:
That's a great first stab at a model and I disagree with the premise of babies and an awareness of omnipotence. At best they're unaware of being ego-centric. What I can say for certain is that people need approval, answers, the attractive, and relationships. Combine them together and you have a single need that can be met by the ego better than any other source. In many cases the 'ego' isn't on a person's conceptual radar so they take a 'God' name substitution.
General_Paul
Registered Senior Member
Well, actually Theoryofrelativity you sort of hit on where I stand. The household I was brought up in wasn't really religious, my parents told me to go out and find my own faith and whatever that was, go with it. They never forced a single belief on me when I was growing up, instead I've sort of found my own path. I don't claim to be an athiest or even a Theist, I don't know what the hell I am. All I can say is this: the universe is abnormally large and we are but one minute speck in the middle of it. I don't need a book written 2,000 years ago about an all powerful god to tell me that, I know that I'm pretty well insignificant in comparison to the size of the universe as a whole. For there to be a "great creator" one would have to assume that that creator had a creator as well, if god made man, then who made god? Most creationist uber fundie Christians call that blasphemy and damn me to hell evern for mentioning that. From my standpoint, I'd rather take my hybrid of Buddhism, a bit of Hindu, some Christianity and Judaism thrown into the mix and just let them have their dillusions of grandeur. And personally, I think the whole belief in hell is kind of off, in my mind, instead of a hell, someone like Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin just get reincarnated as that which they hated most: Stalin as a capitalist, Hitler as a Communist/Jew/whatever and they have so much karmic debt to repay, they aren't going to get close to finishing samsara no matter how many lives they live.
Crunchy Cat said:
Thank you for that, re the babies and omnipotence thing, I have ZERO clue how they arrived at this, but this is something dsicussed in psychology, it even goes further to suggest that babies believe that they and the parent are on being. I will try to find a link on that, as I say not sure how they presume to know this, but this is the the understanding at least.
General_Paul said:
very interesting thank you
your welcome
Theoryofrelativity said:
Thanks! Look forward to the link.
My question was quite a simple one, (although aimed primarily at those who are under the belief that god created everything). If you don't, that's fine - but I personally considered the question an interesting one.
The question might seem flawed to someone that does not believe god created everything, but that wasn't who the question was aimed at. As for being irrelevant.. not specifically. You asked why an atheist would ask a god they don't believe in to help them, I asked why a theist would ask a god they do believe in to help them - when they also generally believe that the very same being gave them that cancer, (god's will etc etc).
You asked a specific question, and I have you a specific answer: I don't talk to the clouds in times of personal crisis/exams etc, and nor do I just "hope". Instead I get off my arse and do what I personally can to improve things. You then responded pretty much saying that everyone does more than just 'hope' - which by and large makes your original question moot.
A tad naive to assume you can label me in such manner. Just for the record I have never been religious/ a god believer in my life. Let it be said that I didn't get "hung up" on anything, I merely asked a question that still awaits an answer.
SnakeLord said:
I have already told you I do not presume to know the nature of god, anyone who does, atheist or theist is clearly deluded as this is something no one can presume to know.
Meanwhile, you want to know where cancer came from get a medical book and look it up! How ignorant are you to keep asking the same question when I have told you repeatedly I am not medically qualified to answer it, you desperately want to know where cancer came from look it up! Do some googling. THIS thread is NOT about cancer???
So you clearly disbelieve anyone that claims to have had some kind of personal experience with a god, and indeed reject any claim made concerning the bible being god's word?
Well before making such outbursts I would ask that you take the time to read my post first. On my last post you'll see who the question is aimed at. What, you think you're the only person on this forum?
SnakeLord said:
And I ask you that you take the time to read the thread and stop trying to get this topic from one of learning something about human psychology to YET ANOTHER DULL BORING 'does God exist or not exist CRAP' thread. I am not answering anymore questions that do not relate to the topic.
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