A Prophet or a Teacher?

[Michael]

Whom, as a person, do you think is the wiser and more enlightened - a Prophet or a Teacher?

I was thinking, it seems to me (assuming there is/are God/s) that a "Prophet" is simply a mouth peace to a God. Seriously, a Prophet could just as easily be a monkey or a package of butter as be a man. Words of wisdom from the God are placed into the Prophet's mouth/lid and out they come.

But, a religous Teacher is really a Philosopher. They sit and they ponder a question - the nature of man for example; sometimes they do so for decades, and when they come to certain conclusions they explain these to their students and a debate then ensues.

While the Prophet appears enlightened (this is assuming their God reveals something enlightening) this is really an illusion of enlightenment. The God is putting ideas into their head and words into their mouth. Where as the Teacher, on the other hand, ponders a question and actually attains enlightenment through personal thought and endeavor.

If one were to place a the highest value on personal enlightenment and philosophy then, following this logic, even a Muslim or Jew could agree that Buddha was a more valued person than say their own Prophets (such as Abraham or Mohammad). They can theoretically retain their religous beleif and still value Buddha greater as a human when compared with their Religion's Prophets - simply as a logical consequence of this thought experiment.


What do you think?
Make sense?

Michael

note: I didn't include Xians because Jesus is a God and so doesn't really count.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think the effectiveness of any message can be measured by the number of people that respond to it.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I think the effectiveness of any message can be measured by the number of people that respond to it.

Nazis?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

This is an easy one my friend.

Who contributed more to mankind? Jesus, or Einstein.
Perfect example.

Einstein discovered the Theory of Relativity. Now nobody needs to discover the theory of relativity again, it would be stupid. now you can give the theory to a child, and he can understand it, he can learn it. This is the difference between Scientific truth and Religious truth. Jesus discovered his path towards enlightment, and he tought the truth to everyone. Now, everybody needs to discover this, over and over. Every person needs to discover his own truth.

Who was more beneficial to society?
It depends on your perspective, but I say, if you say that it was Einstein, you have a very materialistic point of view.
You have eyes, but you don´t see, and you have ears, but you don´t listen.

 

[nietzschefan]

Well I have my own little theories that some "enlightened" individuals, simply piggy backed on an exhisting or "old" belief system so they would be listened to.

Consider the huge difference between new testament and old testament.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Well I have my own little theories that some "enlightened" individuals, simply piggy backed on an exhisting or "old" belief system so they would be listened to.

Consider the huge difference between new testament and old testament.

The difference can be due to many factors. After Alexander the Great, in the 2º Century BC, the Greeks took all of the hebrew scriptures, and chose a group of Greece´s 70 wisest men to translate the scriptures to Greek. They burned the originals.

It is true that some may have forged the teachings of enlightened individuals, some may have done that, who knows?

But there is a key factor here, and it is the fact that there has been enlightened people in history, many of them, hundreds; maybe thousands.

 

[Cris]

The concept of a prophet defines someone who can foretell future events obtained through a supernatural cause. There is no evidence that anyone has ever achieved this status.

A teacher is usually someone who is considered capable of helping others learn specific facts about an issue. Not to be confused with a religious preacher who tries to convince people about concepts that are not known to be factual.

As to the topic: Claimed prophets should be given no heed since thay have no credibility and teachers who really can help people udnerstand factual truths should be appropriately recognized.

Wisdom and enlightenment, however, comes not from merely knowing facts but from understanding how to use and interpret facts accurately. In this case even a successful teacher need not necessarily be considered wise or enlightened.

 

[spidergoat]

Prophets were just primitive teachers and scientists.

 

[Cris]

Wisdom_Seeker,

Who contributed more to mankind? Jesus, or Einstein.
Perfect example.

Who was more beneficial to society?
It depends on your perspective, but I say, if you say that it was Einstein, you have a very materialistic point of view.
You have eyes, but you don´t see, and you have ears, but you don´t listen.

Yet to imply the Jesus myth and superstition was/is of benefit is to take a significant perverted view of history. This myth caused widespread persecution of would be scientists and critical thinkers for many hundreds of years and has certainly slowed scientific discovery for centuries.

And the Christian benefit is what? That one third of the world’s population has been hoodwinked into believing that instead of death being an ugly reality it is really a miraculous gateway to an eternal paradise? I.e. the greatest con in the history of mankind.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Wisdom_Seeker,

Yet to imply the Jesus myth and superstition was/is of benefit is to take a significant perverted view of history. This myth caused widespread persecution of would be scientists and critical thinkers for many hundreds of years and has certainly slowed scientific discovery for centuries.

And the Christian benefit is what? That one third of the world’s population has been hoodwinked into believing that instead of death being an ugly reality it is really a miraculous gateway to an eternal paradise? I.e. the greatest con in the history of mankind.

Ok, due to the fact that some people jump everytime someone mentions Jesus, I´ll correct my statement-
I´m reffering to virtually any enlightened master. There have been many.

But, now that I think about it better, with the stuff you said before, I`m talking about spiritual teachers, not prophets. Aren´t those the same thing? Spiritual teacher = prophet?

 

[S.A.M.]

Nazis?

The fact that they were defeated ideologically and do not comprise the majority?

 

[Cris]

Wisdom_Seeker,

Jesus - umm ok - lol.

I´m reffering to virtually any enlightened master. There have been many.

OK, but what do you mean by enlightened? Can you name any accepted real people who might qualify?

But, now that I think about it better, with the stuff you said before, I`m talking about spiritual teachers, not prophets. Aren´t those the same thing? Spiritual teacher = prophet?

Ah OK, yes I guess that would make sense. Both concepts imply a claim to have direction from a supernatural divine source, although “prophet” does include the idea of predicting the future whereas that would not necessarily apply to a “spiritual teacher”, umm or would it?

 

[spidergoat]

Anyone able to accurately percieve the present has a chance to accurately predict the future.

 

[Michael]

I think the effectiveness of any message can be measured by the number of people that respond to it.

Sam, you completely missed the point. I'm talking about the person. The human. Look, in this post I am happy to assume there is/are God/s. The question is about the person.

On the one hand we have a person who receives information from a God and, like a puppet on a ventriloquists' lap, acts and speaks accordingly and in the other hand we have a person who independently contemplates human nature and of their own volition contributes to humanities understanding of ourselves.

Assuming, as I states in the opening thread, that both messages are worthwhile, who do you admire more as a person? The puppet or the philosopher?

Michael

 

[Michael]

This is an easy one my friend.

Who contributed more to mankind? Jesus, or Einstein.
Perfect example.

I must have really botched this opening post - no I am not speaking about the message, we can agree that the message is worthwhile, I am speaking of the person - the human.

 

[Michael]

OMG as I read through this it seems to keep falling back to this message versus that message. Which was exactly the opposite of what I am saying. Everyone, please, for a moment forget the message we are assuming the message, weather it be Islamic or Xian or Buddhist doctrine or Greek or Chinese Philosophies, contributes positively towards humanity.

Prophets receive their information from a God or the divine etc... this information is put in their mind and words come out of their mouths. They could well be a tub of butter with a talking lid. A 100 Philosophers life times of work and be placed by the God directly into the Prophets head and the information, in the form of words, comes out to the rest of us.

Philosophers (be they Atheist like Confucius/Socrates/Plato or not, for example the Dali Lama or maybe Buddha ect... all MUST contemplate and develop their own information and then share it. Perhaps for some it will take a life time of endeavor to add to humanity's understanding of itself. But endeavor they do.


Assuming their messages are equally worthwhile, whom do we admire more as humans: Prophets or Philosophers/Teachers?

Michael

 

[Oli]

Stated like that then the answer has to be philosophers:
they worked for their information, the prophets got it handed to them on a plate and just parroted someone else's words.

 

[lightgigantic]

Whom, as a person, do you think is the wiser and more enlightened - a Prophet or a Teacher?

I was thinking, it seems to me (assuming there is/are God/s) that a "Prophet" is simply a mouth peace to a God. Seriously, a Prophet could just as easily be a monkey or a package of butter as be a man. Words of wisdom from the God are placed into the Prophet's mouth/lid and out they come.

But, a religous Teacher is really a Philosopher. They sit and they ponder a question - the nature of man for example; sometimes they do so for decades, and when they come to certain conclusions they explain these to their students and a debate then ensues.

While the Prophet appears enlightened (this is assuming their God reveals something enlightening) this is really an illusion of enlightenment. The God is putting ideas into their head and words into their mouth. Where as the Teacher, on the other hand, ponders a question and actually attains enlightenment through personal thought and endeavor.

If one were to place a the highest value on personal enlightenment and philosophy then, following this logic, even a Muslim or Jew could agree that Buddha was a more valued person than say their own Prophets (such as Abraham or Mohammad). They can theoretically retain their religous beleif and still value Buddha greater as a human when compared with their Religion's Prophets - simply as a logical consequence of this thought experiment.


What do you think?
Make sense?

Michael

note: I didn't include Xians because Jesus is a God and so doesn't really count.

its not clear why you use the terms prophet and teacher as mutually exclusive terms - a teacher that has no degree of enlightenment is simply mundane and a prophet that has no sense of philosophy is not capable of expounding anything normative for people in general

 

[SkinWalker]

"Prophets" are invented terms used by those overly afflicted with magical thought. I've yet to see evidence of any real "prophecy" that wasn't simply a writer creating a myth to fit an earlier myth's "prophecy" coming true.

I'm obviously not as well read in Vedic mythology as lightgigentic (nor do I wish to be... many other better written works demand my attention first), but I'm willing to bet he's unable to produce any Vedic "prophecies" that can be demonstrated as clear evidence of Vedic "prophets." Which of them predicted the internet, SARS, and which of them bothered to write down the cure for cancer? Surely this is a concept that, once it's been discovered, will be easily summarized in just a few pages? Which Vedic prophet (or Christian, Muslim, etc.) predicted the nature of DNA?

The prophecies these frauds invent to sustain and maintain their hold of power and status over the commoner amounts to nothing more than vague, easily interpreted-a-thousand-ways, Nostradamus-like BS.

 

[lightgigantic]

"Prophets" are invented terms used by those overly afflicted with magical thought. I've yet to see evidence of any real "prophecy" that wasn't simply a writer creating a myth to fit an earlier myth's "prophecy" coming true.

I'm obviously not as well read in Vedic mythology as lightgigentic (nor do I wish to be... many other better written works demand my attention first), but I'm willing to bet he's unable to produce any Vedic "prophecies" that can be demonstrated as clear evidence of Vedic "prophets." Which of them predicted the internet, SARS, and which of them bothered to write down the cure for cancer? Surely this is a concept that, once it's been discovered, will be easily summarized in just a few pages? Which Vedic prophet (or Christian, Muslim, etc.) predicted the nature of DNA?

The prophecies these frauds invent to sustain and maintain their hold of power and status over the commoner amounts to nothing more than vague, easily interpreted-a-thousand-ways, Nostradamus-like BS.

in short, there is the calculation of time from the atom
(its only in relatively recent times that time pieces have become incredibly accurate by the use of atomic clocks

SB 3.11.4: Atomic time is measured according to its covering a particular atomic space. That time which covers the unmanifest aggregate of atoms is called the great time.

SB 3.11.5: The division of gross time is calculated as follows: two atoms make one double atom, and three double atoms make one hexatom. This hexatom is visible in the sunshine which enters through the holes of a window screen. One can clearly see that the hexatom goes up towards the sky.

SB 3.11.6: The time duration needed for the integration of three trasareṇus is called a truṭi, and one hundred truṭis make one vedha. Three vedhas make one lava.

SB 3.11.7: The duration of time of three lavas is equal to one nimeṣa, the combination of three nimeṣas makes one kṣaṇa, five kṣaṇas combined together make one kāṣṭhā, and fifteen kāṣṭhās make one laghu.

SB 3.11.8: Fifteen laghus make one nāḍikā, which is also called a daṇḍa. Two daṇḍas make one muhūrta, and six or seven daṇḍas make one fourth of a day or night, according to human calculation.

other social phenomena in brief

SB 12.2.1: Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: Then, O King, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, duration of life, physical strength and memory will all diminish day by day because of the powerful influence of the age of Kali.

SB 12.2.2: In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.

SB 12.2.3: Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business will depend on deceit. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brāhmaṇa just by his wearing a thread.

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

SB 12.2.5: A person will be judged unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue. Marriage will be arranged simply by verbal agreement, and a person will think he is fit to appear in public if he has merely taken a bath.

SB 12.2.6: A sacred place will be taken to consist of no more than a reservoir of water located at a distance, and beauty will be thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly will become the goal of life, and one who is audacious will be accepted as truthful. He who can maintain a family will be regarded as an expert man, and the principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation.

SB 12.2.7: As the earth thus becomes crowded with a corrupt population, whoever among any of the social classes shows himself to be the strongest will gain political power.

SB 12.2.8: Losing their wives and properties to such avaricious and merciless rulers, who will behave no better than ordinary thieves, the citizens will flee to the mountains and forests.

SB 12.2.9: Harassed by famine and excessive taxes, people will resort to eating leaves, roots, flesh, wild honey, fruits, flowers and seeds. Struck by drought, they will become completely ruined.

SB 12.2.10: The citizens will suffer greatly from cold, wind, heat, rain and snow. They will be further tormented by quarrels, hunger, thirst, disease and severe anxiety.

SB 12.2.11: The maximum duration of life for human beings in Kali-yuga will become fifty years.

SB 12.2.12-16: By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varṇāśrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. The kings will mostly be thieves, the occupations of men will be stealing, lying and needless violence, and all the social classes will be reduced to the lowest level of śūdras. Cows will be like goats, spiritual hermitages will be no different from mundane houses, and family ties will extend no further than the immediate bonds of marriage. Most plants and herbs will be tiny, and all trees will appear like dwarf śamī trees. Clouds will be full of lightning, homes will be devoid of piety, and all human beings will have become like asses. At that time, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will appear on the earth. Acting with the power of pure spiritual goodness, He will rescue eternal religion.

stay tuned for more