A Note: Global Warming Threads

Really, Dr Mabuse, that's what we've been getting - piles of it. Don't let this sentiment slow you for a second.

Oh, well okay then I'll post a few.

This is a recent article by a respected climate scientist. He is one of a growing number of scientists who are tenured, and confident enough to go against the vitriolic tide of the nonsense-spewing CAGW extremists.

Syun Akasofu
Climate Change: Science Manipulated - Natural causes of global warming are much more significant than manmade changes
Wednesday, June 3rd 2009, 5:46 AM EDT

1. The IPCC wants to claim that the global average temperature has unexpectedly and abruptly increased during the 20th century after a gradual cooling from the year 1000, and that this unexpected increase of the temperature is mostly man-made-the greenhouse effect of CO2.

2. For their purpose, the IPCC ignored the fact that the Earth went through a cold period called "the Little Ice Age" from 1400 to 1800.

3. The Earth has been recovering from the Little Ice Age from 1800 to the present. A recovery from a cold period is warming. It is mostly this warming that is causing the present climate change and it is not man-made. If they admit the existence of the Little Ice Age, they cannot claim that the global average temperature unexpectedly increased from 1900.

3a. In addition to the steady recovery from the Little Ice Age, there are superposed oscillatory changes. The prominent one is called the multi-decadal oscillation.

3b. In fact, most of the temperature change from 1800 to 2008 can be explained by the combination of the recovery from the Little Ice Age and the multi-decadal oscillation. If the recovery from the Little Ice Age continues, the predicted temperature rise will be less than 1°C (2°F) by 2100, not 3~6°C.

4. Because the warming began as early as 1800, not after 1946 (when CO2 in the atmosphere began to increase rapidly), the Little Ice Age was a sort of unwanted and inconvenient fact for the IPCC. (In their voluminous IPCC report, the Little Ice Age was mentioned casually only once, referring to it as "the so-called Little Ice Age.")

5. There are a large number of observations that the Earth has been recovering from the Little Ice Age from 1800 on, not from 1946 when CO2 is the atmosphere began to increase rapidly. For example:
* Receding of glaciers in many part of the world
* Receding of sea ice in the Arctic Ocean
* Change in freezing/melting dates of northern rivers and lakes

6. There is no firm observational confirmation that CO2 is really responsible for the warming during the last century. It is simply and assumption or hypothesis that the IPCC has presented as a fact.

7. The IPCC claims that supercomputer studies confirm the hypothesis.

8. Supercomputers cannot confirm their hypothesis, since they can simply "tune" their computer programs so as to fit the observations.

9. Although the IPCC predicted that by the year 2100 the temperature will increase 3~6°C, the temperature has stopped increasing after 2000 and shows even a decreasing sign.

10. Thus, their prediction failed even during the first decade of the present century, in spite of the fact that CO2 is still increasing.

11. This means that their CO2 hypothesis and computer programs are shown to be incorrect, proving that the program was tuned.

12. Why? Because they ignored natural causes of climate change, such as the recovery from the Little Ice Age and the multi-decadal oscillation.

13. The stopping of the warming is caused by the fact that the multi-decadal oscillation, another natural cause, has overtaken the recovery from the Little Ice Age.

14. In fact, the same thing happened in 1940, and the temperature actually decreased from 1940 to 1975, in spite of the fact that CO2 began to increase rapidly in 1946.

15. It was said at that time that a new ice age was coming even by some of those who now advocate the CO2 hypothesis.

16. If the IPCC could include the physical processes involved in the recovery from the Little Ice Age and the multi-decadal oscillation, they could have predicted the stopping of the temperature increase.

17. However, they could not program processes for the recovery from the Little Ice Age and the multi-decadal oscillation, because the causes of the Little Ice Age, or the recovery from it, or the multi-decadal oscillation are not known yet. There are many unknown natural changes, including the Big Ice Ages.

18. Thus, the present state of climate change study is still insufficient to make accurate predictions of future temperature changes. Climate change studies should go back to basic science, avoiding interference from special interest groups, including the mass media.

19. Unfortunately, I must conclude that the IPCC manipulated science for its own purpose and brought the premature science of climate change to the international political stage, causing considerable confusion and advancing the completely unnecessary "cap and trade" argument.

20. What is happening now at many climate change conferences is simply an airing of the struggle between the poor countries trying to seize money from the rich countries, using the term "climate change" as an excuse.

21. We should stop convening useless international conferences by bureaucrats and pay much more attention to environmental destructions under global capitalism. There is no reason to alarm the general public with predictions of catastrophic disasters caused by the CO2 effect; and the mass media should stop reporting premature science results.

22. Basically, what is really needed are effective energy saving efforts by all countries.

Footnote: The hockey stick figure, which played the important role in the IPCC report of 2001, has not officially been withdrawn yet, although it has since been found to be erroneous.

Syun Akasofu
International Arctic Research Center
University of Alaska Fairbanks
Fairbanks, AK
 
The IPCC wants to claim that the global average temperature has unexpectedly and abruptly increased during the 20th century after a gradual cooling from the year 1000, and that this unexpected increase of the temperature is mostly man-made-the greenhouse effect of CO2.
Nope, the IPCC claims nothing of the sort. It notes and collates the scientific literature demonstrating how the climat has gone UP and DOWN in the last 1400 years or so. Oh, and nearly half the forcing is from gases other than CO2.
So, strike 1.


For their purpose, the IPCC ignored the fact that the Earth went through a cold period called "the Little Ice Age" from 1400 to 1800.
Said little ice age appears in all temperature charts of the last thousand years in the iPCC report.
Strike 2.


The Earth has been recovering from the Little Ice Age from 1800 to the present. A recovery from a cold period is warming. It is mostly this warming that is causing the present climate change and it is not man-made. If they admit the existence of the Little Ice Age, they cannot claim that the global average temperature unexpectedly increased from 1900.
Assertion without evidence or logic to it.
Strike 3.

Your expert is a buffoon, and I'll happily say that to his face if he's ever in Scotland.
 
Another recent article that gets into the CO2 stuff, and the reality of it as measured by science.

April 30, 2009
What You Can(‘t) Do About Global Warming
Filed under: Climate Models, Climate Politics —

We are always hearing about ways that you can “save the planet” from the perils of global warming—from riding your bicycle to work, to supporting the latest national greenhouse gas restriction limitations, and everything in between.

In virtually each and every case, advocates of these measures provide you with the amount of greenhouse gas emissions (primarily carbon dioxide) that will be saved by the particular action.

And if you want to figure this out for yourself, the web is full of CO2 calculators (just google “CO2 calculator”) which allow you to calculate your carbon footprint and how much it can be reduced by taking various conservations steps—all with an eye towards reducing global warming.

However, in absolutely zero of these cases are you told, or can you calculate, how much impact you are going to have on the actual climate itself. After all, CO2 emissions are not climate—they are gases. Climate is temperature and precipitation and storms and winds, etc. If the goal of the actions is to prevent global warming, then you shouldn’t really care a hoot about the amount of CO2 emissions that you are reducing, but instead, you want to know how much of the planet you are saving. How much anthropogenic climate change is being prevented by unplugging your cell phone charger, from biking to the park, or from slashing national carbon dioxide emissions?

Why do none of the CO2 calculators give you that most valuable piece of information? Why don’t the politicians, the EPA, and/or greenhouse gas reduction advocates tell you the bottom line?

How much global warming are we avoiding?

Embarrassingly for them, this information is readily available.

After all, what do you think climate models do? Simply, they take greenhouse gas emissions scenarios and project the future climate—thus providing precisely the answer we are looking for. You tweak the scenarios to account for your emission savings, run the models, and you get your answer.

Since climate model projections of the future climate are what are being used to attempt to scare us into action, climate models should very well be used to tell us how much of the scary future we are going to avoid by taking the suggested/legislated/regulated actions.

So where are the answers?

OK, so full-fledged climate models are very expensive tools—they are extremely complex computer programs that take weeks to run on the world’s fastest supercomputers. So, consequently, they don’t lend themselves to web calculators.

But, you would think that in considering our national energy plan, or EPA’s plan to regulate CO2, that this would be of enough import to deserve a couple of climate model runs to determine the final result. Otherwise, how can the members of Congress fairly assess what it is they are considering doing? Again, if the goal is to change the future course of climate to avoid the potential negative consequences of global warming, then to what degree is the plan that they are proposing going to be successful? Can it deliver the desired results? The American public deserves to know.

In lieu of full-out climate models, there are some “pocket” climate models that run on your desktop computer in a matter of seconds and which are designed to emulate the large-scale output from the complex general circulation models. One of best of these “pocket” models is the Model for the Assessment of Greenhouse-gas Induced Climate Change, or MAGICC. Various versions of MAGICC have been used for years to simulate climate model output for a fraction of the cost. In fact, the latest version of MAGICC was developed under a grant from the EPA. Just like a full climate model, MAGICC takes in greenhouse gas emissions scenarios and outputs such quantities as the projected global average temperature. Just the thing we are looking for. It would only take a bit of technical savvy to configure the web-based CO2 calculators so that they interfaced with MAGICC and produced a global temperature savings based upon the emissions savings. Yet not one has seemed fit to do so. If you are interested in attempting to do so yourself, MAGICC is available here.

As a last resort, for those of us who don’t have general circulation models, supercomputers, or even much technical savvy of our own, it is still possible, in a rough, back-of-the-envelope sort of way, to come up with a simple conversion from CO2 emissions to global temperatures. This way, what our politicians and favorite global warming alarmists won’t tell us, we can figure out for ourselves.

Here’s how.

We need to go from emissions of greenhouse gases, to atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases, to global temperatures.

We’ll determine how much CO2 emissions are required to change the atmospheric concentration of CO2 by 1 part per million (ppm), then we’ll figure out how many ppms of CO2 it takes to raise the global temperature 1ºC. Then, we’ll have our answer.

So first things first. Figure 1 shows the total global emissions of CO2 (in units of million metric tons, mmt) each year from 1958-2006 as well as the annual change in atmospheric CO2 content (in ppm) during the same period. Notice that CO2 emissions are rising, as is the annual change in atmospheric CO2 concentration.

save_the_planet_fig1.JPG

Figure 1. (top) Annual global total carbon dioxide emissions (mmt), 1958-2006; (bottom) Year-to-year change in atmospheric CO2 concentrations (ppm), 1959-2006. (Data source: Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center)

]If we divide the annual emissions by the annual concentration change, we get Figure 2—the amount of emissions required to raise the atmospheric concentration by 1 ppm. Notice that there is no trend at all through the data in Figure 2. This means that the average amount of CO2 emissions required to change the atmospheric concentration by a unit amount has stayed constant over time. This average value in Figure 2 is 15,678mmtCO2/ppm.

save_the_planet_fig2.JPG


Figure 2. Annual CO2 emissions responsible for a 1 ppm change in atmospheric CO2 concentrations (Figure 1a divided by Figure 1b), 1959-2006. The blue horizontal line is the 1959-2006 average, the red horizontal line is the average excluding the volcano-influenced years of 1964, 1982, and 1992.

You may wonder about the two large spikes in Figure 2—indicating that in those years, the emissions did not result in much of change in the atmospheric CO2 concentrations. It turns out that the spikes, in 1964 and 1992 (and a smaller one in 1982), are the result of large volcanic eruptions. The eruptions cooled the earth by blocking solar radiation and making it more diffuse, which has the duel effect of increasing the CO2 uptake by oceans and increasing the CO2 uptake by photosynthesis—both effects serving to offset the effect of the added emissions and resulting in little change in the atmospheric concentrations. As the volcanic effects attenuated in the following year, the CO2 concentrations then responded to emissions as expected.

Since volcanic eruptions are more the exception than the norm, we should remove them from our analysis. In doing so, the average amount of CO2 emissions that lead to an atmospheric increase of 1 ppm drops from 15,678 (the blue line in Figure 2), to 14,138mmtCO2 (red line in Figure 2).

Now, we need to know how many ppms of CO2 it takes to raise the global temperature a degree Celsius. This is a bit trickier, because this value is generally not thought to be constant, but instead to decrease with increasing concentrations. But, for our purposes, we can consider it to be constant and still be in the ballpark. But what is that value?

We can try to determine it from observations.

Over the past 150 years or so, the atmospheric concentration of CO2 has increased about 100 ppm, from ~280ppm to ~380ppm, and global temperatures have risen about 0.8ºC over the same time. Dividing the concentration change by the temperature change (100ppm/0.8ºC) produces the answer that it takes 125ppm to raise the global temperature 1ºC. Now, it is possible that some of the observed temperature rise has occurred as a result of changes other than CO2 (say, solar, for instance). But it is also possible that the full effect of the temperature change resulting from the CO2 changes has not yet been manifest. So, rather than nit-pick here, we’ll call those two things a wash and go with 125ppm/ºC as a reasonable value as determined from observations.

We can also try to determine it from models.

Climate models run with only CO2 increases produce about 1.8C of warming at the time of a doubling of the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations. A doubling is usually taken to be a change of about 280ppm. So, we have 280ppm divided by 1.8ºC equals 156ppm/ºC. But, the warming is not fully realized by the time of doubling, and the models go on to produce a total warming of about 3ºC for the same 280ppm rise. This gives us, 280ppm divided by 3ºC which equals 93ppm/ºC. The degree to which the models have things exactly right is highly debatable, but close to the middle of all of this is that 125ppm/ºC number again—the same that we get from observations.

So both observations and models give us a similar number, within a range of loose assumptions.

Now we have what we need. It takes ~14,138mmt of CO2 emissions to raise the atmospheric CO2 concentration by ~1 ppm and it takes ~125 ppm to raise the global temperature ~1ºC. So multiplying ~14,138mmt/pmm by ~125ppm/ºC gives us ~1,767,250mmt/ºC.

That’s our magic number—1,767,250.

Write that number down on a piece of paper and put it in your wallet or post it on your computer.

This is a handy-dandy and powerful piece of information to have, because now, whenever you are presented with an emissions savings that some action to save the planet from global warming is supposed to produce, you can actually see how much of a difference it will really make. Just take the emissions savings (in units of mmt of CO2) and divide it by 1,767,250.

Just for fun, let’s see what we get when we apply this to a few save-the-world suggestions.

According to NativeEnergy.com (in association with Al Gore’s ClimateCrisis.net), if you stopped driving your average mid-sized car for a year, you’d save about 5.5 metric tons (or 0.0000055 million metric tons, mmt) of CO2 emissions per year. Divide 0.0000055mmtCO2 by 1,767,250 mmt/ºC and you get a number too small to display on my 8-digit calculator (OK, Excel tells me the answer is 0.00000000000311ºC). And, if you send in $84, NativeEnergy will invest in wind and methane power to offset that amount in case you actually don’t want to give up your car for the year. We’ll let you decide if you think that is worth it.

How about something bigger like not only giving up your mid-sized car, but also your SUV and everything else your typical household does that results in carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels. Again, according to NativeEnvergy.com, that would save about 24 metric tons of CO2 (or 0.000024 mmt) per year. Dividing this emissions savings by our handy-dandy converter yields 0.0000000000136ºC/yr. If you lack the fortitude to actually make these sacrifices to prevent one hundred billionth of a degree of warming, for $364 each year, NativeEnergy.com will offset your guilt.

And finally, looking at the Waxman-Markey Climate Bill that is now being considered by Congress, CO2 emissions from the U.S. in the year 2050 are proposed to be 83% less than they were in 2005. In 2005, U.S. emissions were about 6,000 mmt, so 83% below that would be 1,020mmt or a reduction of 4,980mmtCO2. 4,980 divided by 1,767,250 = 0.0028ºC per year. In other words, even if the entire United States reduced its carbon dioxide emissions by 83% below current levels, it would only amount to a reduction of global warming of less than three-thousandths of a ºC per year. A number that is scientifically meaningless.

This is the type of information that we should be provide with. And, as we have seen here, it is not that difficult to come by.

The fact that we aren’t routinely presented with this data, leads to the inescapable conclusion that it is purposefully being withheld. None of the climate do-gooders want to you know that what they are suggesting/demanding will do no good at all (at least as far as global warming is concerned).

So, if you really want to, dust off your bicycle, change out an incandescent bulb with a compact fluorescent, or support legislation that will raise your energy bill. Just realize that you will be doing so for reasons other than saving the planet. It is a shame that you have to hear that from us, rather than directly from the folks urging you on (under false pretenses).
 
Nope, the IPCC claims nothing of the sort. It notes and collates the scientific literature demonstrating how the climat has gone UP and DOWN in the last 1400 years or so. Oh, and nearly half the forcing is from gases other than CO2.
So, strike 1.

Said little ice age appears in all temperature charts of the last thousand years in the iPCC report.
Strike 2.

Assertion without evidence or logic to it.
Strike 3.

Your expert is a buffoon, and I'll happily say that to his face if he's ever in Scotland.

I expected stuff like this.

Your lack of information is in line with most of the nonsense being spread around as 'fact' on this issue. 30 seconds at google backs up every mention he makes in that article.

WHICH 'in the IPCC report' are you referring to? Are you even aware there are several?

But more directly...

You don't even appear to comprehend the points he was making there. Which is kind of shocking. This is more on the level of reading comprehension than it is the science of climate.

To say you don't know what you're talking about is almost superfluous, you don't appear to understand what you are reading. Nor do you seem to be informed even on the various claims of the IPCC.

But BOY that 'strike 1, strike 2' stuff was a nice attempt to make drivel appear legitimate.
 
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Just read my post again. Despite having posted it after night shift, it still reads ok to me, so maybe Buffalo can explain?

Sorry read it after midnight, my mistake, but guess what it can be explained, by the Milankovitch Cycle, when you look at the orbital plane.

Even the the orbit shows as a large factor, at minimum eccentricity of the orbit, the difference between minimum and maximum, is a 6.8% change in incoming solar radiation, we are now at minimum eccentricity so we are receiving the maximum amount of solar radiation which means higher temperatures.

The Earth's orbit is an ellipse. The eccentricity is a measure of the departure of this ellipse from circularity. The shape of the Earth's orbit varies from being nearly circular (low eccentricity of 0.005) to being mildly elliptical (high eccentricity of 0.058) and has a mean eccentricity of 0.028 (or 0.017 which is current value, if we take geometric mean, because phenomena in a gravitational field of Lobachevskian pseudosphere as used by Einstein behave logarithmically). The major component of these variations occurs on a period of 413,000 years (eccentricity variation of ±0.012). A number of other terms vary between 95,000 and 136,000 years, and loosely combine into a 100,000-year cycle (variation of −0.03 to +0.02). The present eccentricity is 0.017.

Currently the difference between closest approach to the Sun (perihelion) and furthest distance (aphelion) is only 3.4% (5.1 million km). This difference is equivalent to about a 6.8% change in incoming solar radiation. Perihelion presently occurs around January 3, while aphelion is around July 4. When the orbit is at its most elliptical, the amount of solar radiation at perihelion is about 23% greater than at aphelion. This difference is roughly 4 times the value of the eccentricity.
 
I expected stuff like this.

Your lack of information is in line with most of the nonsense being spread around as 'fact' on this issue. 30 seconds at google backs up every mention he makes in that article.

WHICH 'in the IPCC report' are you referring to? Are you even aware there are several?
The fourth one of course, which I have read. If you think his assertions are backed up by google, then you'll be able to provide such cites...

But more directly...

You don't even appear to comprehend the points he was making there. Which is kind of shocking. This is more on the level of reading comprehension than it is the science of climate.

To say you don't know what you're talking about is almost superfluous, you don't appear to understand what you are reading. Nor do you seem to be informed even on the various claims of the IPCC.

But BOY that 'strike 1, strike 2' stuff was a nice attempt to make drivel appear legitimate.

Ahhh, the usual non answer of a science hater. Just as I expected.
 
Now, lets see.

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
For their purpose, the IPCC ignored the fact that the Earth went through a cold period called "the Little Ice Age" from 1400 to 1800.

From AR4 chapter 1 page 108 of the report:
Throughout the 17th
and 18th centuries, numerous observers noted the variable
concentrations and ephemeral nature of sunspots, but very few
sightings were reported between 1672 and 1699 (for an overview
see Hoyt et al., 1994). This period of low solar activity, now
known as the Maunder Minimum, occurred during the climate
period now commonly referred to as the Little Ice Age (Eddy,
1976). There is no exact agreement as to which dates mark the
beginning and end of the Little Ice Age, but from about 1350 to
about 1850 is one reasonable estimate.

Yes, such a totally ignored cold period that the IPCC mention it in chapter 1.
Note also that they explain what caused it. Do you have any objections to this explanation? If so I'm sure you will be able to provide evidence.

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
The Earth has been recovering from the Little Ice Age from 1800 to the present. A recovery from a cold period is warming. It is mostly this warming that is causing the present climate change and it is not man-made. If they admit the existence of the Little Ice Age, they cannot claim that the global average temperature unexpectedly increased from 1900.
So, once again the incoherence of the denialist position is revealed. Having shown that the IPCC is perfectly aware of the little ice age, and also what caused it. Since you don't know anything about climate science, I can see that you take his assertion seriously, but to anyone who has read much about the topic, he's talking mince.
 
Your knowledge on this topic is so superficial it's almost embarrassing to discuss it with you.

I can tell you have that perfect recipe of ignorance AND arrogance though, it will keep you in the dark, yet sure of yourself.

While it's still obvious you simply can't understand the context of his first statement, I'm not going to bother to try and explain it to. As I noted earlier, I will simply acknowledge I'm discussing this with someone who struggles with basic reading comprehension, and form opinions with little or no time spent researching the data, and take that into account.

As to the causes of the Little Ice Age? There is more hard data to support a volcanic cause than any other, as there was notable volcanic eruptions and activity throughout the Little Ice Age. The climate changes become self-perpetuating because of the changes in snow packs and ice shelf reduce energy absorbed from the sun, and high-atmosphere sulphur droplet accumulations may have an even greater effect for longer periods. For example the Tambora eruption was followed by the 'year without a summer' in 1815, this was a major eruption that affected the climate of the earth even within the time period known as the Little Ice Age. The massive Krakatoa eruption also provided more data about volcanic eruptions and the climate, and it cooled the planet. Eruptions in the 20th century, while none nearly as massive as a Tambora or Krakatoa, have provided much more data on the climate effects of eruptions. This data gave birth to the theory about volcanic causes of the Little Ice Age as we learned more about it. History does not record a single, large volcanic event as a cause of the Little Ice Age, but does record many smaller events which occurred in various parts of the world at unusually frequent intervals.

But the theories of the North Atlantic ocean currents changing/stopping, the Maunder Minimum, and changes in the Earth's albedo are also current theories.

There are scientists who theorize it was a combination of these things.

Only CAGW extremists would proclaim one cause as factual and the ultimate cause, that is their modus operandi. Volcanic eruptions put massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, yet the climate cools. It's not surprising junk scientists with financial and political agendas would avoid that topic in favor of their own 'pet' theory. You are proof that the 'eager to be told what to think' masses who so willingly believe anything the CAGW extremists say, will believe anything they publish unquestioningly.

I guess if you had read the other IPCC reports, which you couldn't be bothered to do apparently, you would understand more of the points in that paper. The IPCC still hasn't rejected the famous 'hockey stick' junk science that was the one of the crux arguments of their initial fear-mongering.
 
More evidence that Syun Akasofu doesn't know what he is talking about:
9. Although the IPCC predicted that by the year 2100 the temperature will increase 3~6°C, the temperature has stopped increasing after 2000 and shows even a decreasing sign.

10. Thus, their prediction failed even during the first decade of the present century, in spite of the fact that CO2 is still increasing.

11. This means that their CO2 hypothesis and computer programs are shown to be incorrect, proving that the program was tuned.
Given that the IPCC uses a 30 year definition of climate, ie any time period below that is too short to show a proper trend in amongst all the noise of yearly climate, to claim that the warming stopped in 2000 and there is a decrease in temp is insane. Secondly 2005 was about as warm as 1998, so how can that be a decrease in temperature? In fact if you eyeball the charts here:
http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.or...te-misconceptions-has-global-warming-stopped/

you see that 2000 was cooler than just about every year since then, on a global scale. Even more entertainingly it has a graph showing 8 year trends every year for 1975 to 2007, and it is clear that an 8 year trend can change every year from very positive to very negative.
 
Your knowledge on this topic is so superficial it's almost embarrassing to discuss it with you.

I can tell you have that perfect recipe of ignorance AND arrogance though, it will keep you in the dark, yet sure of yourself.

Argument by arrogant ignorace. Clearly hiding your own lack of knowledge of the science.

While it's still obvious you simply can't understand the context of his first statement, I'm not going to bother to try and explain it to. As I noted earlier, I will simply acknowledge I'm discussing this with someone who struggles with basic reading comprehension, and form opinions with little or no time spent researching the data, and take that into account.
Which context would that be? Again, argument by contrarian ignorance does not a scientific argument make.


As to the causes of the Little Ice Age? There is more hard data to support a volcanic cause than any other, as there was notable volcanic eruptions and activity throughout the Little Ice Age. The climate changes become self-perpetuating because of the changes in snow packs and ice shelf reduce energy absorbed from the sun, and high-atmosphere sulphur droplet accumulations may have an even greater effect for longer periods. For example the Tambora eruption was followed by the 'year without a summer' in 1815, this was a major eruption that affected the climate of the earth even within the time period known as the Little Ice Age. The massive Krakatoa eruption also provided more data about volcanic eruptions and the climate, and it cooled the planet. Eruptions in the 20th century, while none nearly as massive as a Tambora or Krakatoa, have provided much more data on the climate effects of eruptions. This data gave birth to the theory about volcanic causes of the Little Ice Age as we learned more about it. History does not record a single, large volcanic event as a cause of the Little Ice Age, but does record many smaller events which occurred in various parts of the world at unusually frequent intervals.
Hmmm, argument by assertion with no links to any scientific literature.
Thus, you lose.


But the theories of the North Atlantic ocean currents changing/stopping, the Maunder Minimum, and changes in the Earth's albedo are also current theories.
So of course you'll be able to provide evidence? No, of course not, that would mean actually understanding the science.
So fortunately, I went and looked it up on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
Now indeed they do mention these causes. But you have provided no evidence to demonstrate that they are in any way relevant to the current warming.


There are scientists who theorize it was a combination of these things.

Only CAGW extremists would proclaim one cause as factual and the ultimate cause, that is their modus operandi. Volcanic eruptions put massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, yet the climate cools. It's not surprising junk scientists with financial and political agendas would avoid that topic in favor of their own 'pet' theory. You are proof that the 'eager to be told what to think' masses who so willingly believe anything the CAGW extremists say, will believe anything they publish unquestioningly.
Volcani eruptions do not put massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, compared to humans. At least not in any recent time period. Thus you lie, and obfuscate. Plus you ignore the other greenhouse gases, such as methane, nitrous oxides, and halocarbons.




I guess if you had read the other IPCC reports, which you couldn't be bothered to do apparently, you would understand more of the points in that paper. The IPCC still hasn't rejected the famous 'hockey stick' junk science that was the one of the crux arguments of their initial fear-mongering.
Once again you lie. The hockey stick shape has been confirmed by numerous other studies. LAte 20th century warmth is anomalous within the last 1400 years or so. No matter how much you manipulate the date, it hasn't been this warm for at least that long. What temperature do you think it was 600 years ago? Warmer than the last 30 years or colder?
 
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Global Warning is a myth...the only reason people believe its true is because the ice caps r "Melting" as some say..
plus...i laugh at the fact that scientist believe that the polar ice caps are going to flood the ocean over the U.S and all. when you see all that ice in Antartica..It cant take 3 years for that all to melt.....
 
You know you are dealing with a science denier when you have to go and do their work for them.
So:
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11175&page=78

The simulations suggest explosive volcanism is the primary source of changes in natural radiative forcing in past centuries, while anthropogenic forcing increasingly dominates hemispheric mean temperature trends during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries (Hegerl et al., 2003). Solar variability appears to play a significant, although somewhat lesser role, over the same time period (Crowley, 2000; Bertrand et al., 2002; Bauer et al., 2003; Gerber et al., 2003). The combined influence of volcanic and solar forcing appears to provide an explanation of the relatively cool hemisphere mean temperatures from A.D. 1400 to A.D. 1900. Shindell et al. (2003) have argued from model results that regionally—for example, in the North Atlantic and in Western Europe—the climate response to change in solar irradiance may have been more important than volcanism.

During the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, human land-use changes appear to have played a potentially significant role in the large-scale radiative forcing of climate. Bauer et al. (2003) used a climate model to examine the biophysical forcing from deforestation, including increased surface albedo as well as reductions in evapotranspiration and surface roughness. Their simulation can reproduce the actual Northern Hemisphere mean temperatures during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, while simulations without this forcing (Crowley, 2000; Bertrand et al., 2002; Gerber et al., 2003) are too warm. Simulations that do not include land-use changes may exhibit an artificially cold pre-nineteenth century mean temperature relative to empirical estimates when, as in Figure 3-8, the model simulation results have been aligned vertically to have the same mean as the instrumental temperature record during the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
So, no denial of late 20th century warming associated with greenhouse gases there then.

From page 81:
Datasets spanning the past 25 years facilitate a comparison of empirical analysis and model simulations of radiative forcings and their effects on climate. Model experiments employing a combination of anthropogenic and volcanic radiative forcing best match the vertical pattern of temperature changes (Santer et al., 2000) and tropopause height changes (Santer et al., 2003b) over the past couple of decades. A multiple regression analysis of the ENSO index (defined by tropical Pacific sea surface temperatures), volcanic aerosols (according to stratospheric optical depth), solar irradiance (from direct space-based observations), and a linear trend has been argued to reproduce a significant fraction of variability in estimated global lower tropospheric temperatures (Douglass and Clader, 2002). In the latter study, the linear trend was attributed to anthropogenic forcing (a combination of greenhouse gas warming and tropospheric aerosol cooling), while a cooling of 0.5°C was inferred for the Pinatubo eruption and 0.1°C cooling for the solar cycle decrease (forcing of 0.2 W m-2). These latter conclusions must however be treated with caution because other studies using optimal detection approaches indicate that it is difficult to statistically separate the responses to more than two or three distinct natural and anthropogenic forcings even with a century of data (Stott et al., 2001). Moreover, certain indicators used in the study (e.g., ENSO indices) are not physically or statistically independent of the radiative forcings themselves (e.g., Cane et al., 1997; Collins, 2000; Adams et al., 2003; Mann et al., 2005).

So, todays take home message. AGW is real, and its mostly humans fault for doing various things, but pinning down every last number is quite tricky.
 
Guthrie you simply aren't intelligent enough to have a discussion with.

You can't even follow a simple topic in a discussion.

At that point it's like talking to a child, which is a waste of time.
 
This is a link to the 2009, updated, Senate Minority Report on so-called 'Global Warming'. Contributed to by over 700 scientists worldwide, this document covers the media hysteria as well as the junk science that is much of what the IPCC call 'science' or 'fact'.



While lengthy document at over 200 pages, this is filled with citations to peer-reviewed studies debunking the many ridiculous claims of the IPCC. The dissenting scientists who contribute include former and current IPCC contributors.

It's worth a read.
 
Guthrie you simply aren't intelligent enough to have a discussion with.

You can't even follow a simple topic in a discussion.

At that point it's like talking to a child, which is a waste of time.

As I said, I have to do your work for you, and you respond with abuse. You are well named.
 
This is a link to the 2009, updated, Senate Minority Report on so-called 'Global Warming'. Contributed to by over 700 scientists worldwide, this document covers the media hysteria as well as the junk science that is much of what the IPCC call 'science' or 'fact'.



While lengthy document at over 200 pages, this is filled with citations to peer-reviewed studies debunking the many ridiculous claims of the IPCC. The dissenting scientists who contribute include former and current IPCC contributors.

It's worth a read.
:) :)


Yup, not only do you hate science, you are also gullible. There's nothing in that report that hasn't been debunked a hundred times already. If you are capable of reading, I'm sure you can put up the strongest argument from that report, and we'll just knock it straight down again, like I did for that Japanese blokes baseless assertions.
 
"... Polar ice caps are melting faster and oceans are rising more than the United Nations projected just two years ago, 10 universities said in a report suggesting that climate change has been underestimated.

Global sea levels will climb a meter (39 inches) by 2100, 69 percent more than the most dire forecast made in 2007 by the UN’s climate panel, according to the study released today in Brussels. The forecast was based on new findings, including that Greenland’s ice sheet is losing 179 billion tons of ice a year. ...

The University of Copenhagen coordinated the effort by the 10-school International Alliance of Research Universities. Other members include the University of California at Berkeley, Peking University, the Australian National University, ETH Zurich, the National University of Singapore and the University of Tokyo. Then Yale University, the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge compiled the 39-page report from research carried out since 2005, the cutoff date for consideration by the IPCC for its forecasts published in November 2007. ..."

From: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=a63vnEwzft94

Several recent studies of the Antarctic ice cover have also shown an accelerating rate of ice melting and parts of some of the ice shelves are breaking off in historically unprecedented amounts.
 
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I am not much impressed by climate models as the problem is very complex. Nor am I impressed that 400 scientists can be found to refute the finding of 52, given problem's complexity and political / economic significance. (In fact this mainly reminds me of Hilter getting 100 German scientists to condem "Jewish Physics.")

I am impressed by observations of ice melting such as in post 117 (but not by sea level measurments as they are very hard to do with certainity.)

I do not know to what extent man's activity is causing Arctic ice to melt or even if that is undesirable (except probably by Polar Bears).
An ice free Arctic would save China a great deal of money importing Russian oil and gas, for example.

The 400 scientist refuting link is 255 pages long and more than 80% is just different statments and qualifications of these refuting scientists.
(Few sane people will read all.) My continuous "page down" was stopped at page 149 by the format change where I found the somewhat reasonable:

The New Zealand Climate Science Coalition released seven "pillars of wisdom" to counter the UN IPCC climate report:

1. Over the past few thousand years, the climate in many parts of the world has been warmer and cooler than it is now. Civilizations and cultures flourished in the warmer periods.

2. A major driver of climate change is variability in solar effects, such as sunspot cycles, the sun's magnetic field and solar particles. These may account in great part for climate change during the past century. Evidence suggests warming involving increased carbon dioxide exerts only a minor influence.

3. Since 1998, global temperature has not increased. Projection of solar cycles suggests that cooling could set in and continue to about 2030.

4. Most recent climate and weather events are not unusual; they occur regularly.
For example, in the 1930s the Arctic experienced higher temperatures and had less ice than now.

5. Stories of impending climate disaster are based almost entirely on global climate models. Not one of these models has shown that it can reliably predict future climate.

6. The Kyoto Protocol, if fully implemented, would make no measurable difference to world temperatures. The trillions of dollars that it will cost would be far better spent on solving known problems such as the provision of clean water, reducing air pollution, and fighting malaria and Aids.

7. Climate is constantly changing and the future will include coolings, warmings, floods, droughts, and storms.

The best policy is to make sure we have in place disaster response plans that can deal with weather extremes and can react adaptively to longer-term climate cooling and warming trends.


The now bold example sentence ending point 4, if true, is the most significant thing I saw in this 255 page report.
Does anyone have link that suggests it is true that in 1930 the Arctic had less ice than now?


If true, that fact is much more persuasive to me than the 400 scientists' opinions are in supporting their POV.
 
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billy said:
The now bold example sentence ending point 4, if true, is the most significant thing I saw in this 255 page report.
Does anyone have link that suggests it is true that in 1930 the Arctic had less ice than now?
That, as stated (and I have to believe there's some kind of extenuating circumstance involved) is more bizarre than significant.

The Northwest Passage recently opened up for the first time in recorded history, and then the next year both the NW and the Russian side passage opened up.

The only basis I know of for such a statement might be a garbled reference to the fact that the Arctic sea ice in the 1930s was at low point in what may be some sort of oscillation (from whaling ship data, IIRC a study came out a few years ago). But that is common knowledge, AFAIK, and long familiar to bodies such as the IPCC.

A lot of the Greenland ice that is melting is older than 1930 origin, for example. That's one of the significant noted circumstances.

Edited in, I tracked back a couple of memories: This: http://nsidc.org/data/g02176.html from here: http://nsidc.org/data/news.html may clear things up, if you want to dig a bit. Here's another item:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Dead+whales+tell+tales+of+sea+ice+decline-a019769872 But if you notice, the retreat of Antarctic sea ice was in the 50s, during the resurgence of Arctic sea ice, so the general situation doesn't really help the Mabuse case either.
 
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4. Most recent climate and weather events are not unusual; they occur regularly.
For example, in the 1930s the Arctic experienced higher temperatures and had less ice than now.

Most people in this thread, and in the discussion in general, appear to know nothing about the issue outside of what the IPCC and Global Warming extremists tell them.

It seems this crowd will repeatedly forgive many claims from the IPCC and CAGW extremists being proven false over and over and over again. This is the clue that it's not about facts or science, it's about some almost religious type of ideological groupthink.

The 'arctic ice is melting! It's CAGW!' is one of the more recent 'scare the hell out of the dummies' approaches of the CAGW extremists. And it's nonsense. But it's obviously damned effective on the ignorant.

Here's an article that covers the well known temperature spike in the artic that lasted a couple decades surrounding the 1930's. Yes there was less ice then.



You also hear about Antarctica melting, more nonsense. Remember those satellite pics that got world attention of a HUGE shelf of ice breaking off of the Antarctic ice shelf? Oh that was played up as proof of CAGW. Though as of fall of last year even the extremists started reversing those claims, admitting the ice shelf was growing as normal, but still attributed the growth in Antarctic ice to CAGW.
lol.gif


Currently Antarctic ice shelves and glaciers are expanding, not contracting or melting.

Ideologues who simply wait for the next fantastic claim of CAGW extremists, because they want to hear what they want to hear not because they are interested in facts or the actual science of climate, are gobbling up this 'the ice is melting! the ice is melting' stuff like good little sheep. It's a shame so many people are so eager to have their opinions and understanding formed by others with an agenda, and then handed to them and they will gobble it up like a hungry dog.
 
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