David F.: Perhaps Redeemer should be more correct.
Matthew 26
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Luke 24
7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
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M*W: David, remember that Paul said these words. It was Paul who created the dying demigod savior myth of Jesus! Jesus never said these things. In fact, Jesus wasn't declared a deity until 325 AD! At the time Jesus was crucified, he was not considered to be a savior -- only a teacher.
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David F.: 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
This surely sounds like Jesus himself was saying that he had to suffer and die and rise again.
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M*W: Again, David, Paul was the mouthpiece for Jesus. Rabbi Jesus had absolutely no idea what Paul would write since he was already dead or out of town -- whatever. Paul never met Jesus nor never heard him say anything. Paul's writings are fiction.
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David F.:
Psalms 23
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
This sounds like an accurate portrayal of a crucifixion centuries before it was invented.
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M*W: King David was supposed to have written Psalms about a thousand years before Jesus. In no way were they applicable to Jesus.
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David F.:
Isaiah 53
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
He was wounded for our transgressions... He was bruised for our iniquities... It pleased the LORD to bruise him... for he shall bear their iniquities.
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M*W: Again, Isaiah was written about 700 years before Jesus, so nothing Isaiah said refers to Jesus.
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David F.: It certainly sounds like Paul is soundly in line with the OT. None of the above verses comes from the writings of Paul.
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M*W: Paul was very familiar with the OT, and he created fulfillments of the OT prophecies!
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David F.: I think it is certainly correct to say Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Was Jesus a great teacher? Certainly, but he was more than that. He was NOT a ruler in this world, by his own words, yet he was the King of the Jews. How can these be reconciled?
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M*W: If Jesus died on the cross or wherever, he knew he was dying for his own teachings. He knew he wasn't the messiah, he wasn't a ruler, he wasn't the King of the Jews. These ideas are reconciled to the mythwriting of Paul.
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David F.: Daniel prophecies that the sacrifices will cease. Jesus says the Heaven and Earth will pass away before the Law (Covenant). How can there be a Covenant without the sacrifices? In Isaiah 53 (above) it says "he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter" so Jesus is the sacrifice.
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M*W: References to the "lamb" and "bulls" is refering to the Zodiac sign of Aries, the Ram, which denotes a time in spring.
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David F.: In the book of the Apostle John it is recorded that John Baptist calls Jesus "
the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices. They are not done away with, they are already done - there is a difference. The Covenant is still whole and in place. Jesus tells us that eternal life is found by keeping the Commandments (Matt 19:17, Mark 10:19, Luke 10:26, 18:20), but the Commandments are only the first step. The second step is to follow Jesus and to love/give him all. Jesus says the only way to eternity is through him - "No man comes to the Father except through me".
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M*W: No matter what I say, you will refute it.
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David F.: I don’t see anywhere that Christians are allowed to do anything they want, all manner of sinning and breaking the Commandments, just so Jesus can wave his hands and forgive them. There is a Baptist philosophy called “once saved, always saved” which corresponds to this drivel but I don’t think anyone else (not even all Baptists) believe such nonsense.
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M*W: The only forgiveness there is is self-forgiveness and the forgiveness of others and us forgiving them. There is no god who gives forgiveness to us, so we must do it ourselves.
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David F.: I see ample evidence of the necessity for Jesus to die for the sins of the world without going to Paul at all. Christian belief is not dependant upon Paul.
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M*W: Unfortunately, it was and still is -- for Christians. It was Paul's story. It was not the truth. There is no savior to bail us out, and there is no heaven for us to go to. All that we will ever have is what we have here.
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