Sorry, man. I just love the imagery. Maybe that has been designed in, though.;P
A logistical argument for the existence of God
- Thread starter Norsefire
- Start date
You seem to be missing a major point in your argument.
Mathematics exists.
Mathematics cannot exist without order.
Therefore order exists.
?
Therefore a creator exists.
Your conclusion is a non sequitur, it does not follow from the argument.
~Raithere
Why do we need something to specify order? Order emerges naturally from the fundamental forces of the universe.
~Raithere
Mathematics follow nature.
Numbers reflect processes in nature. It is a symbolic language devised by humans.
So, mathematics prove that humans exist.
Numbers reflect processes in nature. It is a symbolic language devised by humans.
So, mathematics prove that humans exist.
Science doesn't work on needs, it works on what is or isn't. How do we know order came to be naturally, rather than having been created? Both are logical enough claims.
By need I mean to say what do you think is missing from the scientific explanation that a creator (or some other explanation) might fulfill. I wasn't anthropomorphizing science.
Well, we can observe, model, and test how order arises naturally. So we have evidence of the naturalistic explanation.
~Raithere
Nothing is missing, but it does remain an open possibility that we shouldn't throw away simply because there is no "need"
We also have evidence that order can arise unnaturally. Look at computers, buildings, and basically most things Humans do
Unless it explains something that needs explaining I would contest that yes, it should probably be thrown out. At least as far as it concerns our view of reality. If you want to keep it as an artistic fiction, sure. We can group it with Ra and his sun chariot, Thor and his hammer... Yahweh and his measuring stick.
All humans do is rearrange existing order, not create it. I suppose we can sometimes take order and impose a different "unnatural" order but I'm not quite sure that is really creating order it seems to me still just to be a rearrangement.
~Raithere
Those are all specifics. Simply the notion of a creator, and only that basic concept, is not illogical and should not be thrown out.
And in the same manner, a creator could rearrange order to create our universe. It'd be artificially and intentionally caused.
Merely as supposition, sure. We can also suppose that the universe was created yesterday at 2PM and that you aren't experiencing reality at all but only that which the mad scientist is programming into the brain he has on the jar on his desk. The problem with such suppositions is that they don't add anything to our understanding.
~Raithere
Your comparison comes across that you find the notion of a creator ridiculous. Do you? If so, why?
Also, our understanding is supposed to be what is, not what we think is most convenient or most necessary.
the reason that we can do math is because there are separate things in the world. throw some sand on the floor: the sand particles are randomly scattered on the floor (there is no order), but you can still count them, so what are you talking about
Cybernetics
Registered Member
humans invented maths, if PIE = 4 then so be it, the world wouldnt change at all. we gave order to the chaos not the other way round
Actually, the sand particles can be predicted, if you know all of the factors that come into play, including the force at which you threw them, the force of gravity, air resistance, wind, temperature, the weight and mass of the sand, the composition of the sand, etc
See above. Also, 4 is just a value that we give. However, in order to have value and in order to describe the universe mathematically, it depends on the already existent order.