A logistical argument for the existence of God

[Norsefire]

The existence of mathematics and the ability of mathematics (as in, that we can do math) PROVE that there is a design to the universe. Without order, mathematics cannot exist, because nothing has value (in a mathematical sense) because value cannot be defined.

Before I get attacked by atheists, I am not suggesting nor giving suggestion as to the nature of said designer, nor am I making claims beyond the simple concept of a designer.

So please, leave heaven and hell and other scripture rubbish out of this

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

I have to play devil's advocate here. In an infinite multiverse it could be that this universe just so happens to work the way it does. Mathematics prove there are quite a few laws to which the Universe we live in functions. That Mathematics proves those laws does not inherently prove God's existing. Merely that we're extremely improbable

 

[Norsefire]

I have to play devil's advocate here. In an infinite multiverse it could be that this universe just so happens to work the way it does. Mathematics prove there are quite a few laws to which the Universe we live in functions. That Mathematics proves those laws does not inherently prove God's existing. Merely that we're extremely improbable

I agree that with infinite universes, it's only logical ours works the way it does. However, is it? What is "working"? How do you define order and operation? For this, you need a designer

That's just it; since we observe that there are laws, and laws cannot be defined without a designer (i.e, laws are ensured to be what they are), it is more logical to assume a designer than not to assume one.


Allow me to use video games (yes, yes, I understand they are not reality but they demonstrate my point)

Until you program, or design, certain instances to act as they do, the computer cannot recognize that they indeed must operate with respect to those boundaries and regulations. Firstly, however, you must first tell this computer what gravity (within the game) is, and how to create it.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

A designer still is not necessary. Welcome to the wonderful Infinity of Infinity! Where you, your computer, and the aforementioned game pop into existence in one universe but on the second not the third planet from the sun. Or perhaps you'prefer the mirror-image that somewhere in the multiverse there is a you made up of antimatter playing a game written on an antimatter computer on an antimatter earth. Then there is the universe where the big bang went off and all matter formed slowly into knitted socks.

That's the fun of infinity. Wrap your head around this. God is Omnipresent. God exists in and around and above and below every bit of every one of these infinite universes. Once again... God is bigger than a breadbox. I like to think that our universe was designed to do what it does, but I cannot prove it. It's part of our relationship with God. Yes the F-word. Faith. Belief in the existence of that which cannot be scientifically proven.

At some point we do indeed see through a glass darkly.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

The existence of mathematics and the ability of mathematics (as in, that we can do math) PROVE that there is a design to the universe.

Incorrect. The existence of mathematics proves that mathematics exists.

Without order, mathematics cannot exist, because nothing has value (in a mathematical sense) because value cannot be defined.

Incorrect. Anything that is ordered or disordered is equally supported by mathematics... not the other way around.

 

[CheskiChips]

Incorrect. The existence of mathematics proves that mathematics exists.



Incorrect. Anything that is ordered or disordered is equally supported by mathematics... not the other way around.

I am not sure it's safe to say that something disordered is supported by mathematics. Unless you're referring to mathematics as anything but a language. If you're referring to the transcendental reality of what the numbers represent then I do not believe that mathematics supports disordered things. Saying it does is a philisophical statement, perhaps you intended to make? Rather, an apparent lack of order is the limitation of mathematics at the present time OR a lack of knowledge of the physical components in question.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Disorder is a measure of the unavailability for a system’s energy to do work. The more random / spontaneous a systems particle changes are, the more disordered the system is.

The human concept of disorder is based on subjective interpretations of that objective phenomenon. If a concept is based on objective phenomenon then it is fully supported by reality.

In Norsefire's case, both order and disorder are states dependent on reality... not the reverse.

 

[Cybernetics]

mathmatics proves chaos theory which therefore by you reasoning disproves mathmatics! no brainer huh? why wouldnt maths work throuought the multiverse? The laws are incidental and would exist in some form which made sense to that particular universe.

 

[CheskiChips]

Crunchy Cat; Disorder is a means in measuring the unavailable resources for a system's energy to do work. You're applying a law that's really only applicable to a small fraction of the world of mechanics, to all of it.

Also; we're not talking about the human concept of disorder : / (...?) We're discussing (or should be discussing) the transcendental properties of numbers, atleast in the topic at hand. "If a concept is based on objective phenomenon" doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps you meant; "If a theory is arrived at by objectively analyzing the phenomena around us then it is fully supported by reality." That's true, but it doesn't mean we're fully aware of the phenomena even when we are looking right at it.


Cybernetics; mathematics can't prove chaos theory. That's the problem with versions of string theory, it's not based off of scientific observation. However; in this specific case 'Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principal'(sp) doesn't really mean that things are moving chaotically without order. Actually it's quite the contrary, it's a very ordered system moving with such complexity that knowing its property at any given time can only be (at this time) determined with probability.

 

[Jan Ardena]

The existence of mathematics and the ability of mathematics (as in, that we can do math) PROVE that there is a design to the universe. Without order, mathematics cannot exist, because nothing has value (in a mathematical sense) because value cannot be defined.

Before I get attacked by atheists, I am not suggesting nor giving suggestion as to the nature of said designer, nor am I making claims beyond the simple concept of a designer.

So please, leave heaven and hell and other scripture rubbish out of this

Why are scriptures rubbish?

jan.

 

[greenberg]

So please, leave heaven and hell and other scripture rubbish out of this

Why would anyone be interested in whether God exists or not, were it not that one has some interests regarding heaven and hell - pleasure and pain?

 

[(Q)]

The existence of mathematics and the ability of mathematics (as in, that we can do math) PROVE that there is a design to the universe. Without order, mathematics cannot exist, because nothing has value (in a mathematical sense) because value cannot be defined.

Flaws in the assertion:

The existence of something does NOT prove it's origin.

Complexity does not come from a single leap, but is gradual over long periods of time.

The rest is gibberish.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy Cat; Disorder is a means in measuring the unavailable resources for a system's energy to do work. You're applying a law that's really only applicable to a small fraction of the world of mechanics, to all of it.

It's applicable to to ALL matter and energy.

Also; we're not talking about the human concept of disorder : / (...?) We're discussing (or should be discussing) the transcendental properties of numbers, atleast in the topic at hand. "If a concept is based on objective phenomenon" doesn't make any sense.
Perhaps you meant; "If a theory is arrived at by objectively analyzing the phenomena around us then it is fully supported by reality." That's true, but it doesn't mean we're fully aware of the phenomena even when we are looking right at it.

I have no idea what a transcendental property of a number is. You are correct in that we should be talking about objective disorder... not necessarily Norsefire's personal subjective concept. That's why I clearly defined it and Norsefire's concept is going to be based on it regardless.

I'll paraphrase what I meant by that statement that seemed confusing. All human concepts that are based on fact (i.e. real observable phenomena) are reality-dependent. Norsefire is able to make observations of disorder and arrive at a corresponding concept. Math works just fine while he observes and conceptualizes disorder and this means that math is not dependent on order / disorder but rather the other way around.

 

[CheskiChips]

It's applicable to to ALL matter and energy.



I have no idea what a transcendental property of a number is. You are correct in that we should be talking about objective disorder... not necessarily Norsefire's personal subjective concept. That's why I clearly defined it and Norsefire's concept is going to be based on it regardless.

I'll paraphrase what I meant by that statement that seemed confusing. All human concepts that are based on fact (i.e. real observable phenomena) are reality-dependent. Norsefire is able to make observations of disorder and arrive at a corresponding concept. Math works just fine while he observes and conceptualizes disorder and this means that math is not dependent on order / disorder but rather the other way around.

I understand what you are saying, upon clarification of your definition of disorder I agree that it is true. However it's not evidence to say there's a creator or designer...

I am saying trying to say that human capability is limited, and we don't know those limitations. Therefore our perceptions of numbers are based on our own limitations. Whatever lies beyond our comprehension might not have order OR might have more perfect order. If you're saying humanity is the epotome of creation, then you've already implied a creator (and insulted him). If you're saying humans are not the epitome of creation, then our perception of numbers is not the TRUE nature of numbers (because our limitations) and therefore a transcendental nature exists.

In any case, none of proof or evidence for a creator.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I understand what you are saying, upon clarification of your definition of disorder I agree that it is true. However it's not evidence to say there's a creator or designer...

I agree. Norsefire's leap to a designer conclusion was pure anthropomorphism combined with faulty comprehension of objective disorder.

I am saying trying to say that human capability is limited, and we don't know those limitations.

We know some of our limitations and don't know some others.

Therefore our perceptions of numbers are based on our own limitations. Whatever lies beyond our comprehension might not have order OR might have more perfect order. If you're saying humanity is the epotome of creation, then you've already implied a creator (and insulted him). If you're saying humans are not the epitome of creation, then our perception of numbers is not the TRUE nature of numbers (because our limitations) and therefore a transcendental nature exists.

Our concept of numbers is based on observable relationships of how reality works. Perfect order would mean a system with no entropy... which wouldn't be a system. Humans are difference detection machines that collect energy to persist.

In any case, none of proof or evidence for a creator.

I fully agree.

 

[CheskiChips]

I agree. Norsefire's leap to a designer conclusion was pure anthropomorphism combined with faulty comprehension of objective disorder.




We know some of our limitations and don't know some others.



Our concept of numbers is based on observable relationships of how reality works. Perfect order would mean a system with no entropy... which wouldn't be a system. Humans are difference detection machines that collect energy to persist.



I fully agree.

We can agree to agree.

 

[scorpius]

The existence of mathematics and the ability of mathematics (as in, that we can do math) PROVE that there is a design to the universe.

so even if there was order and it appeared designed,it could also mean that Universe is inteligent and maybe it redesigns itself whenever needed...

or maybe its a proof that Flying Spagheti Monster exists!!

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Let's not forget the possibility of all subatomic particles spontaneously dissasembling then reassembling into zillions of knitted socks.

 

[Norsefire]

Let's not forget the possibility of all subatomic particles spontaneously dissasembling then reassembling into zillions of knitted socks.

A possibility only granted if you take the randomness of the quantum mechanics of the universe to be true.

 

[Roman]

What happens when you divide by zero?