PE didn't say this reality is meaningless and without hope? Are you saying that?
Take your sleepmask off.
False belief leads nowhere good.
Take your sleepmask off.
False belief leads nowhere good.
A God We Know Nothing About
- Thread starter PsychoticEpisode
- Start date
LG said:
DDog said:
What did I tell you about the conclusions of theists? There seems to be a problem with theists being able to not only accept the reality we exist in but also to even admit that it is a reality. For some reason this universe, this Earth, this life is abhorrent.
I'm starting think(just popped into my head) that theism is a mental disorder, a form of depression not yet diagnosed. Usually people who are dissatisfied and overly despondent about life are prone to suicide or mental & nervous breakdowns. Believing in some other reality complete with gods, alternative universes and things beyond normal comprehension seems to be somewhat therapeutic for those on the verge of self-destruction or at least in possession of an inferiority complex. It's like a fail-safe mechanism to preserve the life by giving it some purpose, some hope to continue. Bizarre.
Take a look at LG & DDog. They're so confident about this alternate world that they know all about it without ever having been there. Plus they know the way. They actually feel superior and well they should. It is very tough to argue against their dreamworlds because no one can say with 100% certainty that they're not real. (A schizo's world is very real) As long as this is status quo then they assume some power in what would normally be a very bland existence. They have become rulers of their domains, world's that no one else with a level head will ever sense.
Then again, if theism is a form of mental illness then a majority of the human race is very unstable. When I look around I have to think it might be true.
Generally what you find in a lot of atheist arguments is a lot of noise about what isn't real and hardly anything about what is.
IOW an argument that critiques a claim of reality yet doesn't have an apparent one doesn't look good.
If Bill Griffith ever gets writer's block, perhaps you could double as his script writer
There's a whole world out there just waiting to double over from your scathing analytic self!
It might pay to be heedful of the impending superiority complex headed your way
It might pay to be heedful of the impending superiority complex headed your way
Another typical theistic conclusion. A bit of a theist's original inferiority complex (their true state of being) is still capable of rearing its ugly head from time to time.
actually my point was more about the ante you have riding on the extremely tentative ...
(A schizo's world is very real) As long as this is status quo then they assume some power in what would normally be a very bland existence. They have become rulers of their domains, world's that no one else with a level head will ever sense.
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Right on EndLightEnd!! :cheers:EndLightEnd said:
I don't believe that life is abhorrent, just the opposite... but it helps to have some belief in a meaningful existence when life goes pear-shaped. Likewise, I'm not (and neither is LG I think) proposing any other 'reality', just a different way of seeing - a less reductive/Cartesian perspective than the atheist's worldview (you may find it hard to believe that there could be any other perspective).
Just to correct you, the evidence of numerous studies seems to point to theists being healthier mentally (and physically) than non-theists - happier too. Here's just three articles from non-biased journals:
1) From ScienceDaily "Religion & Healthcare Should Mix",
2)An abstract from a meta-review "Religiosity and Mental Health" , and finally...
3) from "Time" Magazine "What Makes Us Happy"
...Wonderful rant PE!
It's about an alternate perspective, not about an alternate world. Nor is it about feeling superior... it's about inclusion. We are all in this together! That is the point.
I agree with your last sentence 100%. So, can a mechanistic material reality be a source of 'hope' and 'meaning' for you? I hope it does.... but how?StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
to theists,
here is the next stage..
It didn't just pop in his head.
Then get yourself some help.
I'm pretty sure he has a solution that will just pop into his head.
Not only are we on the verge a nervous breakdown, followed by suicide, we are prone to self-destruction, and constantly feel inferior, due to our beliefs.
Do you get the feeling that no matter what we say, we are not being actually listened to? That we are being scanned and probed to find reasons
to come to these wicked conclusions?
Ancient scriptures mean absolutely to this guy. It is as if they don't exist.
Oh..... and add Schizophrenia to our list of abnormalities.
Do you think you may be paranoid?
P.E, calm down, the world is big enough, and ugly enough to house human beings with different outlooks.
What you are implying here, could, become unecessarily nasty and vile, all because you don't believe like I do.
Please check yourself.
jan.
here is the next stage..
P.E said:
It didn't just pop in his head.
Then get yourself some help.
I'm pretty sure he has a solution that will just pop into his head.
Not only are we on the verge a nervous breakdown, followed by suicide, we are prone to self-destruction, and constantly feel inferior, due to our beliefs.
Do you get the feeling that no matter what we say, we are not being actually listened to? That we are being scanned and probed to find reasons
to come to these wicked conclusions?
Ancient scriptures mean absolutely to this guy. It is as if they don't exist.
Oh..... and add Schizophrenia to our list of abnormalities.
Do you think you may be paranoid?
P.E, calm down, the world is big enough, and ugly enough to house human beings with different outlooks.
What you are implying here, could, become unecessarily nasty and vile, all because you don't believe like I do.
Please check yourself.
jan.
A characteristic resistence to define 'reality' and 'real' is not the domain only of atheists, though. I have seen in many times in theists as well. And interestingly, in theists of different denominations.
Is life on Earth as we usually know it not materialistic, meaningless and without hope?
Working hard, eating, drinking, gratifying your senses, sleeping, having sex, fighting and philosophical speculation, each of these activites performed for their own sake, or as a way to try to prove just how wonderful we are - you call that good, happy, meaningful?
Merit becomes conspicuous by its absence in any argument that critiques a claim of reality without offering a sound definition of what is.
This could be said for those who praise the same claim. In fact how could there be any merit for an unknown reality?
sure
hence along with a claim of knowledge there should be a claims of a means to verify it
the absence of this in fideism explains why atheists have such a straw-man fest whenever they encounter it
Where does your God reside? Do you have a soul? If so, where does the soul go when you die??Where was God before He caused everything to happen? How do you know when you're talking to God? How do you know when He answers? Where is your mind?
That very statement is a straw-man. Too much emphasis on strawmen being the roadblock to debate, don't you think? It's important to know how the opponent will react, no? Personally I find it injects some humor into the discussion, and you can be funny at times
“ Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
PE didn't say this reality is meaningless and without hope? Are you saying that? Take your sleepmask off. False belief leads nowhere good. ”
Hope for what?
Meaning doesn't mean anything if it's based on deception.
Why do you need meaning???
PE didn't say this reality is meaningless and without hope? Are you saying that? Take your sleepmask off. False belief leads nowhere good. ”
Hope for what?
Meaning doesn't mean anything if it's based on deception.
Why do you need meaning???
On the contrary, all referencing a straw man involves is saying that a person is opting for a weak version of an argument simply for the sake of an easier rebuttal.
IOW successful debate involves refuting the strongest version argument, not the weakest
Successful debate involves being clear, coherent, logical & on topic.
StangerInAStrangeLa said:
What makes you want to get up in the morning SIASL? Not everything has instant gratification. So, what makes the effort, work, suffering entailed in living worthwhile? What would sustain you over long periods of suffering?
Nietzsche (no friend to religion) said that "the meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself was the curse that lay over mankind". We are finite and fragile beings wired up to seek meaning. I'll explain more below...
Fair point Signal, each of these activities is enjoyable in it's own right. All but the last are probably the sum total of most animals lives - and satisfies them (presumably).
However, I think most humans crave something more, which is the motive for much philosophical speculation - i.e. to find meaning for their lives. Some greater purpose than themselves - aesthetics, progress, football club, family, nation etc. I think many humans also crave hope, when all physical sources of support fail.
Ultimately however, most sources of hope and ends to which people attach meaning are, like us, finite or fallible. Pleasure palls, progress falters, football clubs go bust, families die, nations are defeated etc. Nothing is permanent or trustworthy, even the universe is finite. :bawl:
You can live a meaningful life devoted to train spotting, or stamp collecting, but for those fastidious about finding 'the meaning of life', there is an unsatisfactoriness about material existence - the Buddhists call it 'dukkha'. Hence, for some (like me), only the infinite, permanent, eternal etc. can provide ultimate meaning and hope.
So many questions PE!PsychoticEpisode said:
I'll be brief. I think that theism is a consequence of Idealism... The belief that the original primary, eternal 'stuff' of reality is not matter, but mind. All human studies reduce to biology, which is reducible to chemistry, which reduces to physics, which reduces to maths. Maths is the relationship of ideas i.e. the product of mind.
('Word' used in the King James is a very poor translation of logos).
So, (the belief goes) I and you and everything is an expression of some presumably purposeful mind (God). The mind with which you read this is part of the Mind behind everything - which we both share (though in different bodies, with different memories, personalities and identities). We can understand the universe rationally because it's principles are rational. Similarly, we appreciate beauty in a flower, because we can admire the skill of it's creation though we could never create it ourselves.
'Talking to God' is therefore listening to the very deepest part of my own mind. Seeking inspiration. Searching my own deepest values and how they apply. Handing over an insoluable problem, and then trusting it will be sorted out. It's not about talking to some other being - it's about the mysterious depths of you (and me) and the universe! :m:
WHY do you call it God???
DDog.... I'm not sure if your mind qualifies for godship
A mind-god is probably not what most theists have been programmed for. In fact from what you're describing I would say you are borderline atheist, which is a step up IMO. An idiot savant can memorize the NYC phonebook yet never solve a mind problem, let alone know they even have a mind. No two minds are alike but if you are suggesting that all minds share a common ground then I will ask you just where that is?
It's the infinite, eternal Mind behind all reality. I think it's what the great spiritual leaders were trying to explain, but we somehow managed to cock it up, and produce out of it some ghastly thing called 'Religion'.StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
DDog.... I'm not sure if your mind qualifies for godship
I'm flattered PE!
Actually - thank you. It's important to me that it's a rationally coherent system, even if not everyone agrees with or accept the premises.
I'm thinking that many religions practice meditation or silence and stuff. What is that about? The metaphor they often use is sinking deeper into our own minds. Where is mind? Our brains have a location in space/time, but do our minds?
I guess 'mind' is a property implicit in reality, like space or time, that is focussed or utilized by our brains somehow e.g. Hammeroff and Penrose came up with the "Orch-Or" model for consciousness using QM some while ago. It's that sort of thing I think, but I don't know... :shrug:
What do you think?