A Final Proof Against Christianity

[§outh§tar]

If the Bible truly is the inspired Word of God, it certainly is extremely foolish to reject its precepts. The recent surge in insistence by certain members of the forum has caused me to pen this essay in an effort to examine the Word of God and “give it a chance to speak to my heart”.
Regardless of whether Christians consider the Bible to be inerrant or not, the ecumenical body of believers asserts that the Bible is useful for instructing the nonbeliever on Christ and the way to God.
The first in a series of evidences used by Christians to uphold this belief is that the Bible “claims to be from God” and usually entails this Scripture:
(2 Tim. 3:16).
Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.”

We must first ask, does “every scripture” refer to the Bible? A quick reference to the New Testament reveals that neither the canon of the Catholic nor the Protestant Church was being referred to by the writer of 2 Timothy but rather the Jewish scriptures available to him. In doing so, we may now sweep aside this “defense” as utterly useless.

The next proof employed by Christians is the sheer amount of New Testament manuscripts available today. Says Josh McDowell in his book More than A Carpenter, “over 20,000 copies of New Testament manuscripts are in existence today. The Iliad has 643 MSS and is second in manuscript authority after the New Testament (48).” The assumption by these apologists is clear: the more manuscripts a text has, the more its “authenticity and general integrity” is established. Without critical review, we may at once dismiss this claim too as invalid for the amount of manuscripts is simply not proportional to the integrity and accuracy of the document.

The third proof we shall examine is the claim that prophecies and miracles described within the Bible prove its validity. Using unproven miracles and vague, metaphorical prophecies to prove the Bible is monstrously circular and dishonest.

Having reviewed the more naive defenses used by apologists we shall turn to the Bible itself for what better evidence of divine origin for a Holy Book than the Holy Book itself?
The internal evidence shows that the New Testament was NOT written by eyewitnesses of Jesus. There are various anachronisms detailed elsewhere on the internet which evince this but I cannot address these here as they are not relevant as such to the topic.
The very fact that Paul and other apostles within the New Testament claim to be under the influence of the Spirit is simply no basis to believe ANY of their claims. Such an arbitrary decision demands that the same rationale be applied to other religious books. Any failure to do so is simply dishonesty.

Other topics to address as time goes on:
Science
Contradictions
Apparent agreement of the Old and New Testaments
----------
The very gist of this essay is: Christians (fanatic or not) base their beliefs one way or another in the claims made by New Testament authors. As the claims of these authors have not been corroborated and often times have been shown to be dubious, it is simply dishonest to accept their claims "hook, line, and sinker" and in the same token reject the doctrines of other religions.

An argument from faith is simply null and void as we would again come to the question of why the Christian believes the claims of the writers simply because they say so.
---------------

This will be updated and revised as time goes on. I challenge all Christians and nonbelievers to take up their swords and poke every hole in this essay as it expands as it is obviously far from perfection and completeness, which we strive for.

 

[Poor Player]

Is it possible that everything you have stated is true but that the bible still has more wisdom and knowledge in it on how the average person should live their daily lives (if not taken literally) than all but a handful of other books in the world (from the other ancient religions)? After having discarded it as useless folly at first, I am coming around to this point of view even though I do not believe in a deity of any kind. If nothing else, it is still great literature with several thousand years of hard earned human wisdom thrown in don't you think? I quote Joseph Campbell in a "The Power of Myth" interview on PBS in the states; "The danger is not in using metaphors, the danger is getting stuck inside the metaphors".

 

[c20H25N3o]

I wish that you had the faith that I possess when reading the scriptures! The Word of God is self evident. God is love. What part of 'love' do you not understand! God communicated His love to us Through The Word. God is invisible, God is not seen. God cannot be heard because He has no mouth but ours. God says Of Jesus "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" but you do not hear God in that because your hearts are far away from Him. The Word means nothing to you. If you love 'love' you will delight in these words and 'know' the are from God. In this you will know that Jesus is the Word made flesh that God's nature might be revealed to all. God is for us!
Look, if God says "Dont do this and that" you become scornful and say "I am not doing what any old God tells me to do! Who is he anyway?". You do not realise that you are like petulant children. But God is patient with you as any good father is, waiting for you to see the error of your ways because He knows that His motives are to protect His children as any Good father might. Jesus said "If your son asks you for a fish, even as evil as you father's are, which one among you would give him a snake?". Please know The Word. It is life unto you. In it you are saved and receive eternal life because The Word promises this. Jesus said "Whoever believes in me has eternal life". Listen to The Word. It is Good. Very Good News!

peace

c20

 

[mustafhakofi]

yes poor player agreed, it does contains some wisdom/knowledge, but no more than any ancient book for example the qu-ran, vedas, Tipitaka, easops fables, arabian knights, there are countless others, and they all contain wisdom/knowledge.

so why trust only in one.

and welcome to sciforums, incidently I am an atheist.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Let's examine the spirit that says "A Final Proof Against Christianity".
It is the spirit of the antichrist since Christianity is about the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ.
But let us discern the authors motives. The author of the thread is unsure but would much rather there be no judgement against Him from some God who just likes to kill people for fun. The author does not consider that God is worthy to judge him in such a fashion and so sets out to prove that the God of the Christians is false. The whole basis for the argument is based on fear of God's anger which causes the author of the thread to try and bury the truth of the message of salvation. It is the Christian's lot to stand before God exposed and naked as the day you were born and confess to the sins you have commited. We Christians stand there and do this trusting in our heart that our Heavenly Father will forgive us. Even those with unforgiving human parents such as myself believe that God Himself is a Heavenly father who knows that I must be restored after I have humbled myself before Him. Even though my lifes witness does not currently see God's love in my parents over the matter of restoration, I do hold faith that their hearts will one day be turned towards me in love. If God has made their hearts hard until they die then so be it, but I will still know that God restores me through Jesus Christ whose blood was payment for anything that I may have done. In this I know that Jesus would always intercede on my behalf and if I have the Son, I have the Father also.
God's mercy is infinately greater than His anger. He requires you to stand boldly before him. A son can do this with his father independantly of what he has done. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son for a greater understanding of God's love for you.

Thanks

c20

 

[Bruce Wayne]

§outh§tar, it is off topic but may I ask what you think of the trinity?

:m:

 

[David F.]

The very gist of this essay is: Christians (fanatic or not) base their beliefs one way or another in the claims made by New Testament authors. As the claims of these authors have not been corroborated and often times have been shown to be dubious, it is simply dishonest to accept their claims "hook, line, and sinker" and in the same token reject the doctrines of other religions.

An argument from faith is simply null and void as we would again come to the question of why the Christian believes the claims of the writers simply because they say so.

Interesting. Not corroborated? Isn't this a self-defeating statement? Corroborated means more than one witness... yet there are four gospels? The NT is not one book, but rather a compendium of many books by many authors. I will confess that some authors get more attention than others, but as long as more than one author's views are represented, doesn't that constitute corroboration?

The gospels are four separate accounts by four separate men of the events in question. While they do not contain the same details, they do paint the same basic picture of the same Jesus, from four points of view. Even if, as has been suggested, Matthew and Luke used Mark as source material, the details are still different, and they simply reinforce the pervading belief of the times. John, on the other hand, gives an entirely different point of view, which does not, in substance, disagree with the other three. Not corroborated?

 

[mustafhakofi]

yes david, just like a game of chinese whispers.

 

[§outh§tar]

The purpose of this thread is for input for and against the essay to be provided and in doing so, for the essay to expand and incorporate these various viewpoints so go ahead and ask all you want - the essay can become all-inclusive.

David F.
That Matthew and especially Luke copied almost verbatim from Mark at times and that even in doing so, they at times contradict each other is evidence that this is no "corroboration". Furthermore, as I stated originally, the very fact that they were not eyewitnesses to any of the events they "record" coupled with what you just pointed out, that they all give their "point of view", shows as I have said earlier a) they were biased in their representations b) they were at least a generation removed from these events and were NOT eyewitnesses and therefore cannot be given the benefit of the doubt without being shamefully arbitrary. This means that taking their word on their "point of view" of who Jesus actually was is extremely naieve since they had not even met Jesus.

 

[§outh§tar]

Let's examine the spirit that says "A Final Proof Against Christianity".
It is the spirit of the antichrist since Christianity is about the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ.
But let us discern the authors motives. The author of the thread is unsure but would much rather there be no judgement against Him from some God who just likes to kill people for fun. The author does not consider that God is worthy to judge him in such a fashion and so sets out to prove that the God of the Christians is false. The whole basis for the argument is based on fear of God's anger which causes the author of the thread to try and bury the truth of the message of salvation. It is the Christian's lot to stand before God exposed and naked as the day you were born and confess to the sins you have commited. We Christians stand there and do this trusting in our heart that our Heavenly Father will forgive us. Even those with unforgiving human parents such as myself believe that God Himself is a Heavenly father who knows that I must be restored after I have humbled myself before Him. Even though my lifes witness does not currently see God's love in my parents over the matter of restoration, I do hold faith that their hearts will one day be turned towards me in love. If God has made their hearts hard until they die then so be it, but I will still know that God restores me through Jesus Christ whose blood was payment for anything that I may have done. In this I know that Jesus would always intercede on my behalf and if I have the Son, I have the Father also.
God's mercy is infinately greater than His anger. He requires you to stand boldly before him. A son can do this with his father independantly of what he has done. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son for a greater understanding of God's love for you.

Thanks

c20

Instead of a psychoanalysis we would appreciate more relevant input sir.

 

[§outh§tar]

Is it possible that everything you have stated is true but that the bible still has more wisdom and knowledge in it on how the average person should live their daily lives (if not taken literally) than all but a handful of other books in the world (from the other ancient religions)? After having discarded it as useless folly at first, I am coming around to this point of view even though I do not believe in a deity of any kind. If nothing else, it is still great literature with several thousand years of hard earned human wisdom thrown in don't you think? I quote Joseph Campbell in a "The Power of Myth" interview on PBS in the states; "The danger is not in using metaphors, the danger is getting stuck inside the metaphors".

Yes, I do agree, but as the title says, this is directed to Christians especially and their interpretations. Obviously Christians do not observe the bible as merely a book of "wisdom and knowledge", as I say in the first paragraph, and therefore it is necessary to inquire whether their faith and fundamental beliefs is sound.

 

[§outh§tar]

§outh§tar, it is off topic but may I ask what you think of the trinity?

:m:

You either believe it or you don't. Whether it is at all relevant to a person's salvation I don't know, and if not, then who cares whether or not there is a Trinity.

I don't think however that how we see the Trinity is how the twelve saw the Godhead.

 

[anonymous2]

Interesting. Not corroborated? Isn't this a self-defeating statement? Corroborated means more than one witness... yet there are four gospels? The NT is not one book, but rather a compendium of many books by many authors. I will confess that some authors get more attention than others, but as long as more than one author's views are represented, doesn't that constitute corroboration?

The gospels are four separate accounts by four separate men of the events in question. While they do not contain the same details, they do paint the same basic picture of the same Jesus, from four points of view. Even if, as has been suggested, Matthew and Luke used Mark as source material, the details are still different, and they simply reinforce the pervading belief of the times. John, on the other hand, gives an entirely different point of view, which does not, in substance, disagree with the other three. Not corroborated?

As SouthStar mentioned, "Matthew" and "Luke" seem to copy sometimes word per word or just about the Gospel of "Mark". There's no real proof that "John" was an eyewitness. The P52 fragment MIGHT be a fragment of the gospel of John (and if it is, it's very small and can't really be used to prove the entire text of John), or it could have been a fragment from another gospel which "John" used, or it could have (from my understanding) even have been a gospel similar to or actually the gospel of Nicodemus. And, P52's dating isn't conclusive. It could be as late as 195 CE.

Regardless, from my understanding, there were supposedly ancient references to Apollonius of Tyana's miracles, one of which you can still read today, written by Philostratus. Christians have a history of burning books. This is not to say that the early opponents of Christianity wouldn't have done the same thing though. You either have to say the miracles occurred, or didn't. If they did, from what source? Good or evil or "miracles from nature"? If you say from evil, why should we believe that Jesus' miracles weren't from an evil source?

 

[Poor Player]

I think you should target your essay to those who take the bible literally in its entirety and state it clearly up front. There are "Christian" denominations and just independent people who do not at all take it that way. For example, many Christians believe Jesus was a great teacher and moral man but that the fanatical elements in church history have embellished a great deal on his life and written falsehoods about what he said and did into the bible. Many Christians do not believe it to be the inspired word of god in its entirety and recognize that human politics have factored in heavily to the choice of the canon. Many don't even believe in hell or salvation. But they will still say they are Christians and are inspired by its metaphors. They just have not allowed themselves to get trapped inside them. They are greatly comforted by their faith and it has added a lot of value to their lives or in some cases saved them. Many of these Christians do not even oppose science or evolution in any way. Creationists and/or fundamentalists on the other hand are a horse of a different color altogether. Sure, they will make the absurd claim that these people are not "true" Christians but we shouldn't allow ourselves to make the same mistake. We should respect the differences.

 

[Q25]

If the Bible truly is the inspired Word of God,

its not,
it has too many contradictions and inconsistencies to be a word of PERFECT being!
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

 

[Q25]

I wish that you had the faith that I possess when reading the scriptures! The Word of God is self evident.

word of god,huh?no thnx
www.evilbible.com/

God is love.

wrong
love is an emotion.

God is a imaginary being

God is invisible, God is not seen. God cannot be heard because He has no mouth but ours.

that is true,
but then you contradict yourself with

God says Of Jesus "This is my son in whom I am well pleased"

but you do not hear God in that because your hearts are far away from Him.

if God was Creator of ALL wouldnt you think WE would be part of God then?
how could our hearts,be separate from god/creator?
(btw whoever uses their HEARTS to hear???

But God is patient with you as any good father is, waiting for you to see the error of your ways because He knows that

god as defined by the bible cannot exist
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html

His motives are to protect His children as any Good father might.

is that why he kills millions of them in huricanes,floods,starvation,sicknesses and so on all the time?

Please know The Word. It is life unto you. In it you are saved and receive eternal life because The Word promises this. Jesus said "Whoever believes in me has eternal life".

souls,spirits,afterlife its all just a wishfull thinking,invented by primitive people long time ago before science showed us what we are made of
www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

 

[§outh§tar]

I think you should target your essay to those who take the bible literally in its entirety and state it clearly up front. There are "Christian" denominations and just independent people who do not at all take it that way. For example, many Christians believe Jesus was a great teacher and moral man but that the fanatical elements in church history have embellished a great deal on his life and written falsehoods about what he said and did into the bible. Many Christians do not believe it to be the inspired word of god in its entirety and recognize that human politics have factored in heavily to the choice of the canon. Many don't even believe in hell or salvation. But they will still say they are Christians and are inspired by its metaphors. They just have not allowed themselves to get trapped inside them. They are greatly comforted by their faith and it has added a lot of value to their lives or in some cases saved them. Many of these Christians do not even oppose science or evolution in any way. Creationists and/or fundamentalists on the other hand are a horse of a different color altogether. Sure, they will make the absurd claim that these people are not "true" Christians but we shouldn't allow ourselves to make the same mistake. We should respect the differences.

I do understand that, which is why I added:

Regardless of whether Christians consider the Bible to be inerrant or not, the ecumenical body of believers asserts that the Bible is useful for instructing the nonbeliever on Christ and the way to God.

Regardless of whether they take every part of it or not, if there is at all any sound basis for their faith in the Gospel accounts and NT promises should we not inquire of their faith to see if it sound? Even if a Christian only takes the part about Jesus Deity, we must know why they decide that writers who were not even eyewitnesses by about 40 years are telling the unbiased and "Gospel" truth.

If the Bible truly is the inspired Word of God, it certainly is extremely foolish to reject its precepts.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You either believe it or you don't. Whether it is at all relevant to a person's salvation I don't know, and if not, then who cares whether or not there is a Trinity.

I don't think however that how we see the Trinity is how the twelve saw the Godhead.

thx,

:m:

 

[Poor Player]

What I'm saying is that if all many Christians believe in is that Christ was a great human being and nothing more or less (a moral teacher), that God is an undefinable spirit unknowable in a truly personal way, and that the bible is almost completely allegorical, then why attempt to attack their esteem for the bible as an inspirational book at all. Altough you attempted to address it you are still lumping their faith together with the fundamentalists who are completely on the other end of the spectrum.

Are you not attacking the faith of both groups even though they really have no commonality other than in name? I happen to believe that a large percentage of Christians would agree with everything you have said so far in your essay. So how does that disprove Christianity? I think you strengthen the power of your argument if you narrow your target to those Christians who......fill in the blank. Showing that the bible is full of falsehoods and contradictions does nothing to disprove Christianity as a whole because it is simply too diverse in its varieties of traditions and dogma.

 

[c20H25N3o]

What I'm saying is that if all many Christians believe in is that Christ was a great human being and nothing more or less (a moral teacher), that God is an undefinable spirit unknowable in a truly personal way, and that the bible is almost completely allegorical, then why attempt to attack their esteem for the bible as an inspirational book at all. Altough you attempted to address it you are still lumping their faith together with the fundamentalists who are completely on the other end of the spectrum.

Are you not attacking the faith of both groups even though they really have no commonality other than in name? I happen to believe that a large percentage of Christians would agree with everything you have said so far in your essay. So how does that disprove Christianity? I think you strengthen the power of your argument if you narrow your target to those Christians who......fill in the blank. Showing that the bible is full of falsehoods and contradictions does nothing to disprove Christianity as a whole because it is simply too diverse in its varieties of traditions and dogma.

May I at least define what a christian is please. I am one therefore am in a fairly good place to be able to tell you what it means. If we do not understand the Christian mind then we are going to be full of 'ifs' and 'buts'. Once we come to understand the Christian mind it may be easier for atheists to write their essays.

The Christian mind was not always a Christian mind. Once the Christian was the atheist, not believing in God, nor the supernatural but only considering his own life and the lives of others around them. Being that the atheist mind sees itself as answerable to no one but their fellow man, the atheist concludes that "eye for an eye" is at least fair given that there is no God.
The atheist is often condemned as someone who does not know how to show love by the Christian types because the atheist rejects God whom Christians say is love. This is obviously nonsense for the atheist knows how to show love as much as the next man. In fact the Christian argument looks incredibly elitist and devalues the message to an extent where the athiest feels even more justified in his unbelief.
Now what turned a once atheist into Christian? And why since becoming a Christian does the Christian become so holier than thou? Surely this only serves to make the bible look like a pack of lies? I agree.
I remember giving up cigarettes once. It nearly killed me. Every day I was stressed but as time went on I thought to myself, "I am not doing (giving up) for no good reason, I am doing it to become well!". I became incredibly proud of myself and everytime I saw a smoker I would think "Come on you sucker! Can't you give up as I have???". I would even say to the smoker ( I had only given up for 3 weeks myself) "That's a well disgusting habit. You should pack that in you know!". The smoker would look at me as if I had just spat on him. In fact he looked exactly like I used to look when pious idiot quitters would say that to me when I had a ciggie in my face. It made me think though "Just because I have quit, should I be so 'in your face' with others?" but then I thought "I am only trying to get him to feel the benefits that I now feel i.e. free of that thing that had me enslaved to it" but then I thought "Ah it's his choice. I have said my piece. It is his choice" but then I thought "Perhaps he enjoys smoking! I know I certainly used to!" but then I thought "Well why the hell did I give up then?" and then I thought "Because I would be healthier".
This gnawed at me and gnawed at me. I seemed like such a terrible hypocrite. It stressed me out so much that I suddenly needed a cigarette more than anything else in the world. I felt all kinds of guilt for wanting a cigarette and yet it was the guilt that was preventing me from buying a pack. I suffered and suffered, craving a ciggie soooo very badly but was completly powerless to buy one such was my guilt. One day I was with a group of friends. This particular group of friends knew that I was trying to quit and were not taunting me. Secretly they were envious because they had often expresed an interest to give up but they were good friends and were not going to put pressure on me to smoke one of theirs. However I found myself becoming furious inside that they could not see my pain and offer me a cigarette to help me. Eventually one of my very close friends turned to me and said "Are you alright?"
I blurted out "No I'm not bloody alright. I need a ciggie!!!"
"Should have just asked then stupid" said my friend as he handed me one.
As I smoked that cigarette I kid you not, it had been a terrible hot day but the moment the nicoteen hit my system, I felt free of all of my worries and again no word of a lie, call it coincidence if you like, the sky grew dark and the heavens opened and it rained. I lay down on a grassy bank protecting my ciggie from the rain and got soaked, absolutely soaked but still that little cigarette didnt go out. I am still a smoker today. The cigarette proved to be both my saviour and my tormentor.
It was no different when I became a Christian. I had not done anything marvellous. In fact I was very cynical as I stood there and said "Allright Jesus, if you are there, come on m8, why dont you show me yourself!"
Now this was the bit that blew my head off! He did! At this point I can feel that some of you may have already switched off saying to yourselves "Ok youve led us in with a false sense of security and now you are going to preach Jeeeezzzzzzzuuuuuussss... blah blah blah blah"
But wait! All I am saying is that I asked Him to show me who He was and He did! I knew nothing about the bible when I asked Him. Nothing at all and yet my mind and body was filled with the most glorious ideas of Him. The most wonderful mysteries were revealed to me. Things that were not of this earth. For example I had the strongest sensation of being washed in blood. An idea that would seem so putrifying to me became the most wonderful mystery. As I was being washed (spiritually speaking) I realised that I was incredibly dirty inside and that which was washing me hated to see me so dirty inside. It was like a mother taking a wet cloth to her childs face after she had pigged out on candy floss. I have never felt so much pure love in my entire life.
I felt that I was free of the dirt inside and I felt clean and holy. I was ecstatic with joy. God was real, by Jesus God was real and wasnt just some fantasy of man. I cannot begin to explain the emotions that waved through me. God was much much much much bigger than I had ever even concieved in my moments as an atheist when I had dared to entertain such a possibility. I thought that God was just kind of neutral in those moments. That there was no purpose to God if He existed at all. Now I knew conclusively that His purpose was infinately more complex than I could have ever concieved of.
Yep you guessed it, I went out shouting the name of Jesus from the top of my lungs to everyone I met. I went to work praising God in tongues much to the disquiet of my startled collegues. I started preaching to absolutely everyone and completly forgot about myself. My head was full of the wonders of God and everything else was utterly utterly futile.
I lost my job. People declared me insane and I was sectioned under Twenty Eight Day Section 2 of the mental health act. This was incredibly hard for me and was such a huge test of my new found faith. I could not deny the things that I had been made known to me. Each of the things made sense to my inner being and my inner being delighted in the things it had been shown but the world was not for me it seemed. I could not believe that God would allow me to be sectioned for God's sake! I was a physicist, a chemist, an economist, a mathematician, a scholar and a damned good one. I was a programmer for Christ's sake! I had been programming since I was seven years old and had always had wonderful jobs! WTF was I in a mental home! Put in there for believing in God! It was so unfair! Why would God do this to me? I didnt feel insane at all, this was other peoples perceptions, not mine! What right did they have to section me, tell me I was a danger to society?
I had no where to turn to. Christian friends of my parents visited me but they were not helpful, I had upset my parents and that was not good. They hoped I would see the light! Can you imagine how upsetting that was!!!
All this time though I had conviction that the God who had revealed Himself to me was never far away. I prayed to Him to help me.
The day came for me to be tested by the doctor to see if I was now in my right mind before releasing me from the authority that kept me under Section.
He only asked one question which was "Tell me *my name*, who is in control?", this was a complete head fuc* for me because naturally I wanted to say "God is you fools! Why have you kept me here? You will all be punished for what you have done to me!!!" but instead I said meekly "I am".
"That's fine" said the doctor, "You may collect your things and go"
I should add that this scenario repeated itself another 3 times before I learnt to walk more humbly with my God.
God is good. I am just a man. I am just a man that needs a cigarette, needs toilet paper, needs warmth, needs affection and love.
God reminds me that I have to wash the inside of my glasses on a daily basis and that I am no different to that glass. He says "Just as I make sure that the glass is always fit for use before I pour a drink to put to my lips, so does He and that I cannot say because I have washed a glass out once that it is always clean because once the drink is drunk, it will need cleaning again."
But I will say this, Jesus is my brother. I understand His suffering because I too have suffered greatly for proclaiming the greatness of God. You cannot blame me for defending one I am not afraid to call my brother.
There are many mysteries contained in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ but to see them a seed of faith must exist. Once that seed is planted though I cannot begin to tell you how huge the tree grows and how many birds take shelter in it.

peace

c20