A Christian's POV

ggazoo

Registered Senior Member
Before I say anything, just a note that this post isn't about the scientific merit for the existence of God. It's just one person's point of view from past experiences.

I've been surfing these forums on and off for a few months now, and one thing I've found is that it seems to be very lopsided against the existence of God. Can I prove God to anyone? No. But I do believe in God, and here's why.

Last year my wife and I got married after 7 years of courtship. About 4 months before the wedding, my then soon-to-be father in law passes away from cancer. This is hardly fair. But, that doesn't make me give up on my faith; it does test it however. My father-in-law was buried in the cemetery just behind the church where my wife and I were married. After the wedding ceremony, my wife, mother-in-law and brother-in law went to his gravesite so we could have a moment with him. And it was a moment with him. Not his memory, but with him. He was there. I can't explain it unless you've gone through something like that yourself. You can give me all the psychoanalysis that you want. You can also say that we wanted him there so badly, that we convinced ourselves that somehow that he was. Which, is a very logical explanation after such a great loss. But until you're actually touched by the hand of God like that, there's nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise. I'm just telling my story.

Let's stay on the subject of fathers for a minute. Just over 18 years ago I lost my own dad to a heart attack. The only way that I'm ever going to see him again is in the next life. Am I only believing in God as a desperate hope to see him again? Maybe partially, but not fully. Let me explain.

After my dad died we were forced to sell the house. Talk about a big change for a 13-year old. Anyway, a few strange things happened around that time. Me, my mom, my cousin Donna her three girls were packing boxes in the living room. Everything was sealed tight and ready to go. Just then, we heard some music. We weren't sure where it was coming from. The TV was already out of the house, as was the radio. It sounded like piano music. We soon realized that it was coming from one of the boxes. We found the box the music was coming from, and tore it open. We found the source.

The music was coming from a miniature figurine, which was a girl at the piano. My mom loved pianos, and my dad had given this to her as a gift the year before. The thing is, it only plays when running on batteries. And, you guessed it, the batteries we out. The music had stopped just when we opened the box. I took that as a message from God, and from dad. He missed us too, but that was his way of saying goodbye. He was truck driver, and he died on the road, so he never got that chance.

That story had no scientific merit. And, I'm sure that people on this site will have a perfectly suitable explanation for why it happened, and if you do, I'd love to hear it. Was it a sign? I'd like to think so. It sure did ease our pain at the time. A few other strange things happened around the time of the funeral, but that was the most prevalent by far.

I don't consider myself a "Bible-thumper" by any means. I've read the articles about Mary Magdalene. I've read how "virgin" as it pertains to the virgin Mary also means "young woman". I've read the theories on how the crucifixion was rigged. And, I've seen specials on how flooding the world in 40 days is scientifically impossible. But even all that doesn't tempt my faith. Was Jesus a mortal man? Very possible. Was Mary just a "young woman, and not a virgin? Hard to say. Was the crucifixion rigged? I have a hard time believing that one. And, did God flood the world in 40 days? Very possible. If He can perform miracles, He should be able to do anything, right?

I think I'm more open minded than a lot of Christians are to be honest. I don't consider 'The Da Vinci Code' to be blasphemy... I find it interesting. Evolution makes sense to me too; just because species have evolved, that doesn't mean that still isn't a work of God. I think a lot of the Biblical stories have been misconstrued over the years, but I think that at their core the message is still there.

Take someone like Billy Graham. He's probably the only evangelist that I enjoy listening to (other are out for the money). What fascinates me about him is his total conviction to his faith, and I really respect that. He has absolutely no doubt in his mind as to what he believes. None. And he's a very well educated man.

As far as 'evidence' goes... atheists say that over the course of thousands of years, there hasn't been one shred of evidence of the existence of God. But I think the problem is that we're thinking like human beings. God is beyond human comprehension I think. Thousands of years to us equals mere seconds in God's eyes.

Atheists seem to think that they have it all figured out. And to be fair, a lot of Christians do to. Atheists and agnostics alike fault Christians for being close minded. A lot of Christians are, but so are a lot of atheists and agnostics. It works both ways I think.

So there you have it. Like I said, no evidence, and no scientific explanation. Just one person view as to why my faith is so strong.
 
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try not to stereotype atheists.

I think it is sad that you need a god. I think it makes you fall into the same trap as most theists. the trap being that you always view things with a prejudice towards the work of god. objectivity is difficult. you should not always take the easy way out.
 
ggazoo said:
Last year my wife and I got married after 7 years of courtship. About 4 months before the wedding, my then soon-to-be father in law passes away from cancer. This is hardly fair. But, that doesn't make me give up on my faith; it does test it however. My father-in-law was buried in the cemetery just behind the church where my wife and I were married. After the wedding ceremony, my wife, mother-in-law and brother-in law went to his gravesite so we could have a moment with him. And it was a moment with him. Not his memory, but with him. He was there. I can't explain it unless you've gone through something like that yourself. You can give me all the psychoanalysis that you want. You can also say that we wanted him there so badly, that we convinced ourselves that somehow that he was.

I'm sure atheists understand this just fine. Atheists feel all of the emotions that the God-fearing do. It's just a case that atheists don't attribute a macro scale of emotion on the intelligent creator of the universe. I can perfectly understand that a feeling of a grand emotion makes you believe (or want to believe) there is some superior form of protection or comfort to what could otherwise be apparent nothingness.

After my dad died we were forced to sell the house. Talk about a big change for a 13-year old. Anyway, a few strange things happened around that time. Me, my mom, my cousin Donna her three girls were packing boxes in the living room. Everything was sealed tight and ready to go. Just then, we heard some music. We weren't sure where it was coming from. The TV was already out of the house, as was the radio. It sounded like piano music. We soon realized that it was coming from one of the boxes. We found the box the music was coming from, and tore it open. We found the source.

The music was coming from a miniature figurine, which was a girl at the piano. My mom loved pianos, and my dad had given this to her as a gift the year before. The thing is, it only plays when running on batteries. And, you guessed it, the batteries we out.

Like all eye witness accounts on things that apparently defy explanation, you can only really judge unless you've experienced it first hand. Eye witness accounts like the one you just described or others such as ghosts, aliens, angels, loch ness monster etc... are dubious as it is well known that humans often see what they want to see or hear what they want to hear and in reality, can not be trusted to come up with a conclusion to something they have already made up their mind about.

In times of death, on reflection, mundane events can have added significance which people can add their unjustified beliefs to. Example: A few days before my grandfathers death, he was getting out of bed at 3am and opening the front door (to the house) claiming that he could hear one of his daughters calling him. At the time we just assumed he was losing the plot, but of course after his death people assume it was a call from heaven and whatever fantasy they wish to peddle.

I don't consider myself a "Bible-thumper" by any means. I've read the articles about Mary Magdalene. I've read how "virgin" as it pertains to the virgin Mary also means "young woman". I've read the theories on how the crucifixion was rigged. And, I've seen specials on how flooding the world in 40 days is scientifically impossible. But even all that doesn't tempt my faith. Was Jesus a mortal man? Very possible. Was Mary just a "young woman, and not a virgin? Hard to say. Was the crucifixion rigged? I have a hard time believing that one. And, did God flood the world in 40 days? Very possible. If He can perform miracles, He should be able to do anything, right?

Although you may not be fundamental in your religion, you still accept a truth of one faith over an unlimited number of other faiths. Therefor your faith is certain to be wrong regardless what it consists of.

As far as 'evidence' goes... atheists say that over the course of thousands of years, there hasn't been one shred of evidence of the existence of God. But I think the problem is that we're thinking like human beings. God is beyond human comprehension I think. Thousands of years to us equals mere seconds in God's eyes.

Bit of a contradiction here... If God is beyond human comprehension then why do you have all these man-made notions of faith?

Atheists seem to think that they have it all figured out. And to be fair, a lot of Christians do to. Atheists and agnostics alike fault Christians for being close minded. A lot of Christians are, but so are a lot of atheists and agnostics. It works both ways I think.

I don't agree with this statement. You think atheists have it all figured out, but you think this because they do not accept peddled fantasies of theists. If you have something tangible to come forward with, then perhaps they will listen. Otherwise atheists will always assume faith based nonsense to be nothing but the product of your imagination.
 
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First, I agree with charles cure. Good for you.

Second, it's statements like these:

As far as 'evidence' goes... atheists say that over the course of thousands of years, there hasn't been one shred of evidence of the existence of God. But I think the problem is that we're thinking like human beings. God is beyond human comprehension I think. Thousands of years to us equals mere seconds in God's eyes.

that make most atheists consider most theists somewhat dull-witted. As Kenny JC pointed out,

1) Nope, there insn't any evidence

2) If "god" is beyond human comprehension the how can you know anything about "him" like...

3) ...Thousands of years to us equals mere seconds in God's eyes.

This is just plain psychotically illogical.
 
its fun watching theists implode, isn't it =].

thats what I meant by the "trap," many theists blind themselves to the flaws in their religious beliefs.
 
I wasn't out to sterotype anyone, and if that's the impression that I left, then I apologize.

KennyJC said:
Like all eye witness accounts on things that apparently defy explanation, you can only really judge unless you've experienced it first hand. Eye witness accounts like the one you just described or others such as ghosts, aliens, angels, loch ness monster etc... are dubious as it is well known that humans often see what they want to see or hear what they want to hear and in reality, can not be trusted to come up with a conclusion to something they have already made up their mind about.

In times of death, on reflection, mundane events can have added significance which people can add their unjustified beliefs to. Example: A few days before my grandfathers death, he was getting out of bed at 3am and opening the front door (to the house) claiming that he could hear one of his daughters calling him. At the time we just assumed he was losing the plot, but of course after his death people assume it was a call from heaven and whatever fantasy they wish to peddle.

This is what i was referring to. It's hard for soemone on a message board give valid reasoning when they didn't experience it firsthand. Hell, if I heard the story, I'd think they were crazy too.

superluminal said:
1) Nope, there insn't any evidence

You should probbaly re-read the first part of my post. I already said that I wasn't out to try to prove anything, I just wanted to share my story... something that I'll think twice about next time. But the responses I've gotten are pretty much what I figured... all very intellengent, which I appreciate.
 
ggazoo said:
You should probbaly re-read the first part of my post. I already said that I wasn't out to try to prove anything, I just wanted to share my story... something that I'll think twice about next time. But the responses I've gotten are pretty much what I figured... all very intellengent, which I appreciate.

My response was mainly concerned with your bit of logical nonsense. Your story was fine and nice, but try not to be so blatantly illogical. It invites posters with avatars like mine to dine on your figurative intestines. Yum.
 
just a note that this post isn't about the scientific merit for the existence of God

No such thing exists, so of course your post isn't about it.

And it was a moment with him. Not his memory, but with him. He was there.

Even if he was, it in no way relates to invisible sky beings.

The music was coming from a miniature figurine, which was a girl at the piano. My mom loved pianos, and my dad had given this to her as a gift the year before. The thing is, it only plays when running on batteries. And, you guessed it, the batteries we out. The music had stopped just when we opened the box. I took that as a message from God, and from dad.

A) It has always perplexed me how the dead can operate battery-less radios and toys, but seemingly can't do anything even remotely substantial. In this instance it can be said that musical figurines usually have a battery for the movement aspect, (revolving ballerinas etc), and an internal small 'watch' battery for the music they play.

But just out of interest.. are you saying that you opened this box, while in the process of moving out, and thought "it's a sign", and then just to make sure it was indeed a sign, went to the removal truck, located a screwdriver, and opened up the whole 'toy' just to check? It's doubtful.

What is usually the case in instances like this is that something 'unusual' happens and people instantly assign it paranormal status. People never really take the time and effort to find a rational explanation, and then years later completely forget the details and recount the story as if it was some remarkable event - which wouldn't have been if they had have taken the time to check.

B) Even if, for arguments sake, the toy was 'magically' playing, there is no indication that the source was from some omnipotent sky being or a dead human. It could have been invisible leprechauns taking the piss for all you know - and yet somehow you feel you can assign a specific answer with no justification to do so.

C) Which god are you talking about?

I don't consider myself a "Bible-thumper" by any means. I've read the articles about Mary Magdalene. I've read how "virgin" as it pertains to the virgin Mary also means "young woman". I've read the theories on how the crucifixion was rigged. And, I've seen specials on how flooding the world in 40 days is scientifically impossible. But even all that doesn't tempt my faith. Was Jesus a mortal man? Very possible. Was Mary just a "young woman, and not a virgin? Hard to say. Was the crucifixion rigged? I have a hard time believing that one. And, did God flood the world in 40 days? Very possible. If He can perform miracles, He should be able to do anything, right?

Curious.. why did you only mention events/people with regards to one very specific god? Maybe your father and allah are the ones sending you musical goodbyes.. what justification do you have to pick that specific one?

I think I'm more open minded than a lot of Christians are to be honest.

So you've given as much consideration that the 'god' in question is allah, or tiamat, or apollo, or brahma?

just because species have evolved, that doesn't mean that still isn't a work of God.

Just because a music box plays music, doesn't mean it's an omnipotent sky being, or indeed the first specific sky being you can think of.

He's probably the only evangelist that I enjoy listening to (other are out for the money). What fascinates me about him is his total conviction to his faith, and I really respect that.

Earns a shitload too.

But I think the problem is that we're thinking like human beings.

What else do you propose we think like?
 
ggazoo,
Thank you for your honest explanation of one person's faith. When it comes down to it, we can't all be specialists in every area of science, so some things we do take on faith. If I may offer my opinion on your story, it is an example of how superstitions develop. I think it's due to selective attention. Since the idea of a God is already in your mind, you tend to interpret perceptions through the filter of that idea. When something happens, it goes into the "support of faith" file in your head, but when nothing happens, it fails to enter the "counter to faith" box. It's just like when someone believes in ghosts, and when something goes bump in the night, it reinforces the idea of ghosts.

This is especially true in highly stressful situations. When some trauma happens, our monkey brains are hardwired to focus in on that and remember it, to make that event central to our life and thought process, so as to learn from it, and thereby prevent it from happening to us. Every thing that happens in that period is interpreted through that filter.

Also, in very traumatic situations, the psychoactive substance DMT is produced by the pineal gland, and may lead to hallucinations.

If God is beyond human comprehension, then you can't exactly expect a rational person to accept it, and it's sort of like admitting defeat before you start. I don't think Jesus thought God was beyond comprehension, and none of the Gnostic Christians thought so either.
 
At Fatima, some people swore that God made the sun stand still yet many say nothing happened there at all. No doubt that a great majority of the crowd was hoping to see a miracle. When miracles happened before Christianity took hold, who got credit? Ancient Greeks saw gods popping up all over the place.

Poly or mono, the theists see things related to their religion. I'm sure but not positive that a person of faith will see things connected with their religion and not of some other religion. In fact I think that's a guarantee. When's the last time a Hindu saw the Virgin Mary? I would be interested to know the ratio of atheists actually seeing things compared to theists. Still, seeing things doesn't mean God exists.
 
spidergoat said:
ggazoo,
Thank you for your honest explanation of one person's faith. When it comes down to it, we can't all be specialists in every area of science, so some things we do take on faith. If I may offer my opinion on your story, it is an example of how superstitions develop. I think it's due to selective attention. Since the idea of a God is already in your mind, you tend to interpret perceptions through the filter of that idea. When something happens, it goes into the "support of faith" file in your head, but when nothing happens, it fails to enter the "counter to faith" box. It's just like when someone believes in ghosts, and when something goes bump in the night, it reinforces the idea of ghosts.

This is especially true in highly stressful situations. When some trauma happens, our monkey brains are hardwired to focus in on that and remember it, to make that event central to our life and thought process, so as to learn from it, and thereby prevent it from happening to us. Every thing that happens in that period is interpreted through that filter.

Also, in very traumatic situations, the psychoactive substance DMT is produced by the pineal gland, and may lead to hallucinations.

If God is beyond human comprehension, then you can't exactly expect a rational person to accept it, and it's sort of like admitting defeat before you start. I don't think Jesus thought God was beyond comprehension, and none of the Gnostic Christians thought so either.

Thanks spidergoat. It's nice to have a response from someone who gives me his honest opinion on my story, without dissecting and paraphrasing what I said, just so they can justify their own personal attacks, while snickering behind their keyboards.

*sigh* Oh well. So much for a different POV. I should have known better.
 
right, because spidergoat's response was so different than mine..[\sarcasm]
 
cato said:
right, because spidergoat's response was so different than mine..[\sarcasm]

his tone was quite a bit different. you set yourself up as a "predator" type, whereas spidergoat merely gave an opinion.

at least thats what i noticed.
 
no shit. logic is logic though. it should not matter if I am all "please and thank you," my points were just as valid.

my patience for nutters has gone a long time ago.
 
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