A Christian's nightmare

[Tiassa]

What if ...

... after you die you find yourself standing before God and Christ at the Judgment, told you did it wrong, and are sent off to your punishment?

... after you die, you find yourself standing before God, and it's not the one of the Bible?

... you find that God created the Universe, but had nothing to do with the Bible, Jesus, or anything else?​

I got to thinking as I was reading a couple of slender evangelical volumes that there seems to be an awful lot of accusation in some quarters of the faith. Some of it is reckless inasmuch as there is one unforgivable sin:

"Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" .... (Mark 3.28-29, RSV)​

So I did pause to wonder about those errant folks of faith--and we all know or know of a few, even if we must reach to gangsters, pedophiles, or Joseph Kony--and the looks on their faces as they plead their faith and belief.

Or maybe they won't have time. Snap, done, and all is suffering. At least they can know it is done for love.

To the less catastrophic, of course, are the other considerations. Or ... maybe. A different God could be benevolent, indifferent, or terrible.

At any rate, you have faith, but cannot actually know. If there's no divinity whatsoever, it's not a big deal: you won't know it, and you won't care because you will be dead.

But what if you're right in being theistic, and wrong in your religion?

As God once said when asked who actually did have the right religion, "The Mormons."

At moments like those, we understand why the phrase, "Oh, dear God!" is merely a colloquial expression. But for some of our neighbors, the outcome of that question is much more than a joke for a brilliantly-crass television show.

 

[Tiassa]

Okay, I'll throw in another one: You die and find out that there is spirit, there is another plane, but there is no evidence of God. There, now you have eternity to wander around consciously and figure it out. Any thoughts?

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

I think you make a good point tiassa: It all seems very punitive and partial, which is why it can't be true that only one religion has the truth, and it's members will be all 'saved' (even paedophiles/murderers/torturers) while the others get punished eternally... It's too much like the S&M lottery.

'God' must be universal, profound and already within us - discovered by all cultures but seen in different ways e.g. Christ, Allah, YHWH, the Ground of our Being, Universal Love, Atman/Brahman, Tao, Buddah Nature etc. etc.

My interest is not so much some promised pay off after I'm dead - I want to discover that 'pearl beyond all price' here and now in this lifetime. This is when it transforms lives, not after we are dead!

P.S. It's an interesting passage you quote (Mark 3:28-29). I find it hard to conceive what Jesus was referring to - what could be so heinous that there is never any way back? My only thought is he meant spiritual leaders who so corrupt their religion (e.g. creating the Inquisition) that it becomes the polar opposite of what it should be.

 

[sandy]

If you obeyed His Word in His Bible, He will let you into His Heaven. The big/only thing that will get you in is being born again. That's what His word says. I'm not taking ANY chances that it's wrong.

I know that I know I will go to Heaven and stand before Him. I know I've made mistakes but I did the best I could with what I knew. I was a "fisher of men." I got as many people to church/saved as I could. I loved everyone of His children.

Yes I could have/still can do more and I will. If it ends up being wrong, I did the best I knew with the Word I followed.

p.s. Since we are spirits we will live on eternally. I want to go to Heaven with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. Not to hell with satan et all. There is no "pearl beyond
all price" here. There is a hole in our souls that only God can fill. The blasphemy quote is true. If you blaspheme (reject) the Holy Spirit when He calls you, you are destined for hell. You had your chance and you rejected
Him.

 

[Balerion]

I'm not so sure that any of these things are true. Why is there a need for a God in the first place? Because thousands of years ago, people couldn't explain the things they saw. Not because we were incapable, but because we had to learn these things from the ground-up, as opposed to today, where we have unlimited amounts of research data available.

The "God" concept comes from a lack of understanding, as is a mechanism of the Human brain. It's abstract thought and the ability to reason that provides us with the foundation for a Greater Power. And it covers many things...from our inability to cope with death, to our inability to understand things we know nothing about. God can, and has, covered all of that.

And this whole "Spirituality" movement is nothing more than a branch of religion. It's the people who refuse to believe in the dogmas of the established religions, but cannot comprehend death as an end. It is just as much a "God" structure as religion, because in that case, the spirit realm becomes a god.

But it's all natural for us to believe this. It's a built-in trait of humanity. When something doesn't make sense, we invent a God to be the answer.

 

[Carcano]

Okay, I'll throw in another one: You die and find out that there is spirit, there is another plane, but there is no evidence of God. There, now you have eternity to wander around consciously and figure it out. Any thoughts?

Why bother with 'another plane' if spirit is already here...and what is to be 'figured out' if it is eternal?

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm not so sure that any of these things are true. Why is there a need for a God in the first place? Because thousands of years ago, people couldn't explain the things they saw. Not because we were incapable, but because we had to learn these things from the ground-up, as opposed to today, where we have unlimited amounts of research data available.

The "God" concept comes from a lack of understanding, as is a mechanism of the Human brain. It's abstract thought and the ability to reason that provides us with the foundation for a Greater Power. And it covers many things...from our inability to cope with death, to our inability to understand things we know nothing about. God can, and has, covered all of that.

And this whole "Spirituality" movement is nothing more than a branch of religion. It's the people who refuse to believe in the dogmas of the established religions, but cannot comprehend death as an end. It is just as much a "God" structure as religion, because in that case, the spirit realm becomes a god.

But it's all natural for us to believe this. It's a built-in trait of humanity. When something doesn't make sense, we invent a God to be the answer.

All this must be true, if you say so.

 

[Carcano]

And this whole "Spirituality" movement is nothing more than a branch of religion. It's the people who refuse to believe in the dogmas of the established religions, but cannot comprehend death as an end. It is just as much a "God" structure as religion, because in that case, the spirit realm becomes a god.

Spirit and deity are too different to be equated.

Like comparing a noun to an adjective.

 

[Balerion]

All this must be true, if you say so.

I wasn't claiming it to be fact. I just see it as a common sense explanation.

Spirit and deity are too different to be equated.

That's not true at all. They both serve the same purpose, which is explain what cannot be explained. Having a spirit gets rid of that nasty problem of what happens after we die, doesn't it? And spiritualism doesn't burden you like organized religion does, nor does it offer punishment for your wrongdoings.

It is as much a religion as anything else. But it is a religion for those who wish to not be bothered with the dogmas of Christianity and Judaism and the rest.

 

[Carcano]

They both serve the same purpose, which is explain what cannot be explained.

What is explained by the existance of 'spirit'?

 

[Carcano]

And spiritualism doesn't burden you like organized religion does, nor does it offer punishment for your wrongdoings.

Ah, well the Buddhists dont believe in any creator God, but they do believe in spirit...and their spiritual system is certainly not a free-for-all.

It is ruled by the principle of karma.

 

[fadingCaptain]

sandy, you were a "fisher of men"? did you use a harpoon?

christian's nightmare: get to heaven and lo and behold...turns out darwin was the second coming.

 

[Tiassa]

Celestial fornication and other stuff

If you obeyed His Word in His Bible, He will let you into His Heaven. The big/only thing that will get you in is being born again. That's what His word says. I'm not taking ANY chances that it's wrong.

Yes, yes, yes. We've all heard about obeying the Bible. Consider, though, that if 100 people all "obey the Bible", you will still get 100 variant conducts.

So imagine, Sandy, you get to the Judgment, are told you don't qualify. You stammer, "But-but-but I obeyed the Bible!" And the voice of Judgment laughs, responding, "Says you!"

That would suck. Or at least it seems to me it would.

To the other, though, if your faith comes at the price of extortion, is it really faith? You say you don't want to take any chances, but that's pure greed. This is another problem I run into with Christian faith, but the question generally eludes me inasmuch as it tends to communicate poorly to the faithful.

If everything you do is to the glory of God because you're afraid of the consequences, is your love of God (e.g. Matthew 22.34-39) really genuine? Does God know what resides in one's heart? Do you, Sandy, really think you can fool God? Disingenuous obedience is of no greater good than disobedience. Sometimes even less.

Why bother with 'another plane' if spirit is already here...and what is to be 'figured out' if it is eternal?

Why bother? Because what we might call a "spiritual" plane may simply be a realm of real existence we cannot, in our current forms, detect.

And wouldn't you rather figure out that such a plane is its own reality, and perhaps get down to some celestial fornication instead of waiting around for God?

Take Sandy's answer, for instance. I may have paid a price for some of the things I've done, but at least I've done them. Some might wander around the eternal plane regretting the things they did not do because they were so greedy in life, so afraid for their immortal soul, and so willing to pander without conscience in an attempt to deceive God. Perhaps someone might decide they are in Hell, and their faith remains somehow and somewhat intact. Perhaps one might believe it is a test from God. Perhaps others might wise up and realize they were wrong. And these folks might be useful in the eternal plane: I may have gotten to have the three-way, and thus won't regret not taking part, but the really craven spirits who denied the passions of their flesh will be the ones who figure out the best ways to get buck wild astral-style.

Or something like that. There's plenty to figure out. If any of our human spirit remains in such a state, we will eventually find a way to break the boredom.

 

[Balerion]

Originally Posted By: Carcano

What is explained by the existance of 'spirit'?

I'll answer this and your second statement about Buddhism the same.

The mechanism of god (which is about the best way I can articulate it...) is one that handles the entire spectrum of things we can't (or didn't, in years past) understand. Having a power to attribute things to is a way of explaining what we can't explain...which, to the reasoning Human mind, is essential; we cannot simple not understand something, there has to be an answer.

One of the first things Humans had difficulty with was death. There are a number of theories as to how Man connected death with the notion of religion--most of which stemmed from early Man's inability to tell the difference between a severely unconscious person from a dead person...until the unconscious person woke up, that is. That is a sound theory, and could very well have been the reason why Man decided that there was some greater power at work, and why a lot of early civilizations regarded animals as religious figures, as opposed to spirits and gods.

But I think that religion--or at least spiritualism--was just as much borne from the grief that came with the death of a loved one, as it was anything else. Religion today covers all aspects of life--including death--so why should it have been any different back then?

The point is that having a spirit provided us with a reason to believe that death was not the ultimate end. Have you ever had a loved one die? No matter your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) you will find yourself thinking, hoping, praying, knowing that they are in a better place, and that you will meet them again. Why? It's comforting.

And that is what is explained by the existence of "spirit"; a link to the afterlife.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I know that I know I will go to Heaven and stand before Him. I know I've made mistakes but I did the best I could with what I knew. I was a "fisher of men." I got as many people to church/saved as I could. I loved everyone of His children.

1 Samuel 2:3
"Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed.

and moreover:
1. you don't love iraqis.
2. you don't love murders and rapists.
3. As tiassa pointed out, you most likely brought 'god's children' to the wrong church.

 

[Tiassa]

Pissing on God

P.S. It's an interesting passage you quote (Mark 3:28-29). I find it hard to conceive what Jesus was referring to - what could be so heinous that there is never any way back? My only thought is he meant spiritual leaders who so corrupt their religion (e.g. creating the Inquisition) that it becomes the polar opposite of what it should be.

I'll be so presumptuous on this as to say, "Close." Or, perhaps less arrogantly, my reading of the passage casts Jesus as more political than anything else. The entire passage reads:

Then he went home; and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself." And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el'zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons." And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house. "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" -- for they had said, "He has an unclean spirit." (Mark 3.19-30, RSV)​

Essentially, in this tale, Jesus is dodging the questions of doubters by accusing. His opponents (e.g. the scribes) accused him of being possessed by the Devil. He responds by casting Satan as a complete f@cking idiot ("if a house is divided against itself ..."), and then condemning the scribes to hell.

And this is the unforgivable sin: attributing the work of God (e.g. Jesus) to the Devil (e.g. Beelzebub).

A practical consideration, then: If, say, homosexuality is of the Devil, as some claim, then we must also consider that, according to Christians operating in a different political theater--e.g. abortion--God blessed the homosexual's conception and, presumably, birth. As research shows more and more that homosexuality is determined in utero, we now face the idea that God not only blessed that conception, but did so knowing this person would be a homosexual. Regardless of any other argument--a test of faith, &c.--to call homosexuality of the Devil risks calling God's willful creation Satanic.

Furthermore, I actually know of one Christian (there are probably more, but I can only attest to the one) who once said, "Cursing is from Satan." Now, given that many profane words actually derive from the language of a conquered people--made profane by the conquerers--and since God split the world in to separate languages after the incident at Babel, it would seem that the will of God created profanity. If, as with the abortion theater, we enter the apocalyptic theater, we find statements by Christians asserting that God knows the end from the beginning. Thus, God could foresee the creation of profanity at the moment he wrecked the tower and differentiated language. Hence, profanity derives from God. (Tenuous, I know, but work with me here.)

The unforgivable sin is not so much about badmouthing God as it is about usurping God. Only God knows the true nature of things, so in addition to the insult of his work being attributed to Satan, there is also the arrogance of some made-from-dirt, piece-of-crap-because-God-wills-it-so usurper to deal with. After all, this is a jealous God we're talking about. One who is willing to punish to the third and fourth generations the sins of the father.

Of course, God could foresee the usurpers. At least, so long as God could see the end from the beginning.

And it goes on. And on. And on. But this unforgivable sin thing is a one-two punch to God's infinite egotism. And given that the Christians are aiming to please this jealous, genocidal, backstabbing God, I'm just thinking it would do their immortal souls a world of good if they were to stop being so judgmental.

(Therein lies the key. Part of faith is acceptance. This does not mean tolerating ridiculous circumstances, but accusing is a role intended for Satan. Dealing with situations as they are is the acceptance within faith. Attempting to redefine reality in order to suit one's needs is entirely left to God.)

 

[nova900]

'God' must be universal, profound and already within us - discovered by all cultures but seen in different ways e.g. Christ, Allah, YHWH, the Ground of our Being, Universal Love, Atman/Brahman, Tao, Buddah Nature etc. etc.

People who claim to have had near death experiences tend to confirm that this is the case. It would seem God is not a bigoted ill tempered bully after all. Portrayals of God like that are due to mans' ignorance and not the truth.

Also, if intelligent life does exist on other worlds,which I believe is most likely,then no doubt there are almost endless interpretations of God out there.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

And this is the unforgivable sin: attributing the work of God (e.g. Jesus) to the Devil (e.g. Beelzebub).

I think we are thinking along the same lines tiassa... transposing 'good' and 'evil'. My only doubt is that attributing the 'works of God' to the Devil happens all the time, and seems to be a subject of honest debate (e.g. did God create HIV (HIV - Wrath of God), in which case did He also create Anthrax and/or Ebola and/or Malaria to teach us a lesson too - and what is the lesson??)!

A practical consideration, then: If, say, homosexuality is of the Devil, as some claim, then we must also consider that, according to Christians operating in a different political theater--e.g. abortion--God blessed the homosexual's conception and, presumably, birth. As research shows more and more that homosexuality is determined in utero, we now face the idea that God not only blessed that conception, but did so knowing this person would be a homosexual. Regardless of any other argument--a test of faith, &c.--to call homosexuality of the Devil risks calling God's willful creation Satanic.

LOL - I haven't heard that argument used before! That should get the 'phobes' worried. :bravo:

The unforgivable sin is not so much about badmouthing God as it is about usurping God. [...]

And it goes on. And on. And on. But this unforgivable sin thing is a one-two punch to God's infinite egotism. And given that the Christians are aiming to please this jealous, genocidal, backstabbing God, I'm just thinking it would do their immortal souls a world of good if they were to stop being so judgmental.

(Therein lies the key. Part of faith is acceptance. This does not mean tolerating ridiculous circumstances, but accusing is a role intended for Satan. Dealing with situations as they are is the acceptance within faith. Attempting to redefine reality in order to suit one's needs is entirely left to God.)

Yes, I agree. Considering it is one of the things Jesus went on about so much - 'Judge not that you will not be judged' etc., it is disappointing that the conservative churches especially seem judgemental and accusatory, much more so than your average agnostic/atheist. (In saying this, I too am being judgemental and accusatory!)

Not much changes - it was the religious leaders of the time who opposed Jesus most, and in the end arrested him and got him crucified. As you say - accusing is a role for Satan.

People who claim to have had near death experiences tend to confirm that this is the case. It would seem God is not a bigoted ill tempered bully after all. Portrayals of God like that are due to mans' ignorance and not the truth.

Also, if intelligent life does exist on other worlds,which I believe is most likely,then no doubt there are almost endless interpretations of God out there.

I agree nova900. Interesting thought - what concepts of divinity aliens might have! :bugeye:

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

The mechanism of god (which is about the best way I can articulate it...) is one that handles the entire spectrum of things we can't (or didn't, in years past) understand. Having a power to attribute things to is a way of explaining what we can't explain...which, to the reasoning Human mind, is essential; we cannot simple not understand something, there has to be an answer.

I think your explanation is a case in point JDawg. Atheists feel the need to explain religious faith in other people, and also feel themselves superior, so they concoct a narrative (such as yours) that portrays 'God' as a primitive explanation from a pre-scientific age.

Unfortunately, as a theory it is untestable, and makes no useful predictions. So in purely scientific terms it is of no use whatsoever (other than to help atheists to feel superior). It's like a tone-deaf person 'explaining' Mozart in terms of animal calls.

Explaining something is not the same as understanding it. To understand something requires patient unbiased observation e.g. listening to people as they explain in their own terms what 'God' is to them and why they believe. Theists too might learn a lot from atheists, and different religions from each other once we all stop trying to be exclusive.

 

[phlogistician]

If you obeyed His Word in His Bible, He will let you into His Heaven. .... I'm not taking ANY chances that it's wrong.

Sure you are.

You are indulging in the flawed reasoning of 'Pascals Wager' . I won't go into it too much, other than to say, it's not a one horse race.