9/11 was an inside job

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So you're admitting that the WTC - both of them, mind - fell down in more than free-fall time.

Do you have difficulty reading?

I would like to see you provide a link to where I ever said that for their total height the buildings came down at free fall acceleration.

It is not my fault that you presume that all of the people that you call Truthers are saying the same thing. Many Truthers seem to be dummies just like the debunkers.

It is totally absurd that a 7th grade physics problem has not been resolved in 12 years.

I wrote a computer program years ago demonstrating that the Conservation of Momentum alone would prevent a total collapse of the towers in free fall time and changing the distribution of mass changes the time. Therefore it is totally absurd that everyone is not demanding accurate data on the distribution of mass down the buildings.

http://www.breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=64306&sid=230903584eb12029e2955fc1594fb660#64306

psik
 
It is not my fault that you presume that all of the people that you call Truthers are saying the same thing.
Why don't you get your act together before proposing the latest crazy, then?
It is totally absurd that a 7th grade physics problem has not been resolved in 12 years.
It is totally absurd that after 12 years some people don't understand basic physics. If anything the truther movement is an indictment of our educational system here in the US.
 
Why don't you get your act together before proposing the latest crazy, then?

It is totally absurd that after 12 years some people don't understand basic physics. If anything the truther movement is an indictment of our educational system here in the US.

I agree about the indictment of the educational system.

Everyone does not expect to be given accurate data about the distributions of steel and concrete down the buildings and expect good experiments to be done with that data.

So what do you claim to be saying about basic physics without basic data?

psik
 
Do you have difficulty reading?

I would like to see you provide a link to where I ever said that for their total height the buildings came down at free fall acceleration.

Do you have difficulty in comprehension? Falling in greater than free-fall time means that the essential charge by Troofers of demolition is bogus. You are a Troofer. How does this protect your opinion regarding government conspiracy?

It is not my fault that you presume that all of the people that you call Truthers are saying the same thing. Many Truthers seem to be dummies just like the debunkers.

Many Troofers do indeed seem to be dummies.
 
Do you have difficulty in comprehension? Falling in greater than free-fall time means that the essential charge by Troofers of demolition is bogus. You are a Troofer. How does this protect your opinion regarding government conspiracy?

So provide a link to where I said anything about government conspiracy.

The Laws of Physics are incapable of giving a damn about the government.

psik
 
Why don't you get your act together before proposing the latest crazy, then?
Cheeee-YECK. :D

It is totally absurd that after 12 years some people don't understand basic physics. If anything the truther movement is an indictment of our educational system here in the US.
I know: they could have graduated high school and earned their PhDs in all that time. What's up with that? :bugeye:
 
I know: they could have graduated high school and earned their PhDs in all that time. What's up with that? :bugeye:

So how is it that a professor at the University of Washington could build a 54 foot, 1:200th scale model of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 4 months in a wind tunnel to experiment with the behavior of the real bridge.

And yet in TWELVE YEARS the experts cannot build a model of the north tower when a 1:100th scale model would only be 13.7 feet tall. How could a good model be built without knowing the accurate distribution of mass and we do not have that?

psik
 
psikeyhackr

So how is it that a professor at the University of Washington could build a 54 foot, 1:200th scale model of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 4 months in a wind tunnel to experiment with the behavior of the real bridge.

The Tacoma bridge came down from the effects of aerodynamics and resonance. The towers fell from damage, steel failure due to heat and gravity. Gravity does not scale, wind effects and resonance do. An accurate scale model for aerodynamics and resonance is possible, a model for gravity is not. An ant can pick up 10 times it's body weight, can you? That's because gravity does not scale.

And yet in TWELVE YEARS the experts cannot build a model of the north tower when a 1:100th scale model would only be 13.7 feet tall. How could a good model be built without knowing the accurate distribution of mass and we do not have that?

It is a lie to say that we do not know the mass distribution of the towers, it's in the NIST reports if you are actually interested and don't just want to continue that lie as a talking point . A 1/100 scale building of proportional thicknesses of steel would be many times stronger against gravity than the full size building. It's just physics. You see the same effect when you see an ant walk away easily while carrying a load that would, if scaled up, squash you like a bug if you were ever stupid enough to get underneath it. And it's the reason you don't see elephants with antlike legs splayed out to the side. A 13 foot tower replica could probably be picked up, rotated upside down and still be in one piece, if a 1000 foot King Kong tried that with the real tower it would crumble away into bits before he even got a good grip. NIST made full size models of sections of those buildings(much more accurate)and subjected those to the conditions of 911. They got information on the actual steel, in those actual conditions at an accurate scale(1/1). You should read them sometime, it's a real eye opener what real forensic science can do.

Grumpy:cool:
 
The Tacoma bridge came down from the effects of aerodynamics and resonance. The towers fell from damage, steel failure due to heat and gravity. Gravity does not scale, wind effects and resonance do. An accurate scale model for aerodynamics and resonance is possible, a model for gravity is not. An ant can pick up 10 times it's body weight, can you? That's because gravity does not scale.

Are you saying the bridge could have oscillated without gravity?

Gravity could be scaled in a centrifuge if it was necessary but I think that is just a rubbish excuse.

That is why I made the supports as weak as possible in my model. If a model with the minimum strength would not collapse then why should a skyscraper with a safety factor.

It is not like this hasn't been dealt with before:

Small-scale testing is more economical than full-scale testing, but is subject to data interpretation problems caused mainly by similitude criteria violation, i.e., model distortion. One of the most troublesome causes of distortion in dynamic tests of model structures is gravity.

The objective of this effort was to develop concepts and procedures that compensate for gravitational effects without using a centrifuge.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a209252.pdf

Like structural engineers didn't know how to deal with it long before 9/11.

psik
 
psikeyhackr

Are you saying the bridge could have oscillated without gravity?

No, I'm saying the aerodynamic and resonant effects that caused the oscillation to failure can be modeled at a smaller scale, Our aerodynamisists are well versed in wind tunnel testing. And the gravity that caused it to fall into the river was not relevant to the cause of that failure. It was important to the collapse of the Twin Towers. Thus scale models cannot model the collapses accurately because they are much stronger and gravity proportionately weaker the smaller the scale. That is why NIST only modeled full size steel, trusses and offices and then used FAE to apply those findings to the whole structure. And that is the only way to accurately model such structures other than building a full sized replica only to test it to destruction. Large buildings are built on the leading edge of our technology to construct them. With a generous(for such buildings)safety factor of 1.5, it was only capable of supporting 150% of it's as built weight/stress. Those aircraft destroyed about 20% of the reserve capacity in Tower One, but nearly 50% of that safety reserve in Tower Two. If there had been no fires(or just isolated single floor fires)those buildings would likely be standing today, repaired back to good as new. But the fuel ignited widespread, multi-floor fires, setting all the office furniture and carpets on fire at once and raising temperature to the point that the steel got weak, when enough steel got weak enough it caused cascading failure and the top block fell through 12 feet. Once that event happened there was not any way the remaining structure could stop the rubble until it hit the ground. The floors failed sequentially, they were only designed to hold working loads of only that one floor, they stripped right off of their connections when hit by the multiple floors above them, then the frame and core columns snapped apart or fell over in long sections, one of which(from Tower One)hit Building 7.

Gravity could be scaled in a centrifuge if it was necessary but I think that is just a rubbish excuse.

Yeah, real science is always rubbish to you.

That is why I made the supports as weak as possible in my model.

The thinnest angel hair pasta you can find serves as a substitute for steel columns, water works for fire then, but your going to have to train the spider to weave your floors. And you will still be wildly inaccurate. Full size is the only way to deal with gravity accurately, as NIST says.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Yeah, real science is always rubbish to you.

The thinnest angel hair pasta you can find serves as a substitute for steel columns, water works for fire then, but your going to have to train the spider to weave your floors. And you will still be wildly inaccurate. Full size is the only way to deal with gravity accurately, as NIST says.

Grumpy:cool:

Like the Potential Energy can be accurately computed without accurate mass distribution. Very scientific.

I provided a link for the scientific modelling of gravity. I knew modelling for that had to exist from before 9/11 but this is the first I have seen. Pretty sophisticated structural engineering existed before there were electronic computers. But people keep coming up with this excuse, "You can't scale gravity."

The trouble with 9/11 is that scientists and engineers have made themselves look stupid by not resolving it.

Everyone is supposed to believe that useful climate models projecting the climate 100 years in the future can be worth a damn but we can't make a computerized skyscraper collapse model. The failure to resolve this in 12 years can never be erased from scientific history. So scientists will be stuck with the image of having no integrity. And then they don't even talk about the relevance of accurate mass distribution down a skyscraper even though 50 buildings over 1000 feet tall have been constructed since 9/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_world

So build it with the pasta and prove you can make it completely collapse by dropping the top 15% by height. But you will have to supply distribution of mass data.

psik
 
psikeyhackr

Like the Potential Energy can be accurately computed without accurate mass distribution. Very scientific.

Ah, so you would rather keep repeating the lie that we don't know the mass distribution than to look at the NIST report and cure your ignorance on that point. Got it, you are a troll, not a researcher. Your "Trootherism" is more important to you than the truth is.

I provided a link for the scientific modelling of gravity. I knew modelling for that had to exist from before 9/11 but this is the first I have seen. Pretty sophisticated structural engineering existed before there were electronic computers. But people keep coming up with this excuse, "You can't scale gravity."

Well, you cannot, not without building your model in a huge centrifuge. Engineers know this, their attempts to compensate are highly inaccurate at best. It doesn't matter what you do, an ant is not and never will be an acceptable model for an elephant, they live in two completely different worlds, physically, because of scale. An elephant that weights a ton cannot even budge a 10 ton truck off the ground, whereas an ant could pick up a proportional weight and run with it at nearly it's top speed. An elephant built with legs of the design and proportions of an ant's could not even stand up, much less carry ten times it's own weight. That's because gravity does not scale. The physics an ant has to deal with are very different than what the elephant deals with. You cannot build an accurate scale model that even comes near the behavior of that full sized building when it comes to the accurate modeling of gravity. That's why NIST went to the time and expense of testing full sized steel substructures and trusses.

The trouble with 9/11 is that scientists and engineers have made themselves look stupid by not resolving it.

The scientists and engineers have provided the best understanding it was possible to have, it is resolved as far as it is possible to be. It's the Troothers who are delusional and denying the science behind those events. You are the ones making yourselves look stupid, everyone else has moved on. Is Killdozer still harassing and lying about that poor woman who took the photo of flight 93? Still denying it was planes? Still accusing everyone but yourselves of lying in a conspiracy to irritate Troothers? Still arguing about a concrete core? Making yourselves look stupid has been going on in the Troother movement since Adam. Very successfully, I might add.

Everyone is supposed to believe that useful climate models projecting the climate 100 years in the future can be worth a damn but we can't make a computerized skyscraper collapse model.

The NIST report details the computer model they made, so what idiocy are you talking about now. Starting off by denying facts is no way to conduct any kind of investigation, though it's fine for idiotic conspiracy nuts, I guess.

The failure to resolve this in 12 years can never be erased from scientific history.

It is resolved. The only thing not resolved is just how much longer the deniers can continue to deny that fact. And the Troother conspiracy movement is proof positive that some people are really, really stupid, oh the shame. Talk about irremovable black marks on history. Listening to Alex Jones destroys brain cells, evidently. But we knew that already as well.

So scientists will be stuck with the image of having no integrity.

With who? A bunch of idiot Troothers ferociously posting from their mom's basement? I don't think anyone gives a hoot what their reputation is with the idiot Troothers. The scientific community respects the work NIST did on the events of 911, it was as accurate and thorough as it was possible to be given the available evidence. Those who are low information Troothers are ignored by the grownups.

And then they don't even talk about the relevance of accurate mass distribution down a skyscraper even though 50 buildings over 1000 feet tall have been constructed since 9/11.

And liars have integrity? Accurate distribution is available, you would just rather continue to lie about that. The distribution below the impact/fire zone is irrelevant, anyway. Sort of like asking how many rodents were crushed in the collapses, it has nothing to say about how and why the collapses occurred.

So build it with the pasta and prove you can make it completely collapse by dropping the top 15% by height. But you will have to supply distribution of mass data.

Even pasta won't be accurate, gravity does not scale. And repeating the lie that the mass distribution of that whole building is not in the report in excruciating detail just illustrates the dishonesty and belief in non-sense and lies that is the core of Trootherism. You are a waste of bandwidth.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Ah, so you would rather keep repeating the lie that we don't know the mass distribution than to look at the NIST report and cure your ignorance on that point. Got it, you are a troll, not a researcher. Your "Trootherism" is more important to you than the truth is.

So you can accuse me of lying. Big Deal!

Why don't you tell us the total amount of concrete in the towers as specified by the NCSTAR1 report by the NIST and tell us where that information is located in the report?

I burned the NCSTAR1 report to DVD years ago. It specifies the total for the steel in six places. It never specifies the total for the concrete or the distributions for either of them.

This is what is says about the amount of steel:
NIST has 236 samples from the WTC buildings, with the vast majority belonging to WTC 1 and WTC 2.
These samples represent roughly 0.25 percent to 0.5 percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the two towers. The collection of steel from the WTC towers was sufficient for determining the quality of the steel and, in combination with published literature, for providing mechanical properties as input to models of building performance.
NIST NCSTAR 1-3, WTC Investigation page 39

Nearly identical statements were here:
NIST NCSTAR 1-3, WTC Investigation page 129
NIST NCSTAR 1-3B, WTC Investigation page xxv
NIST NCSTAR 1-3B, WTC Investigation page 55

5.5 STRUCTURAL STEELS
5.5.1 Types and Sources
Roughly 200,000 tons of steel were used in the construction of the two WTC towers. The building plans called for an unusually broad array of steel grades and multiple techniques for fabricating the structure from them.
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation page 67

The remaining 229 samples represented roughly 0.25 percent to 0.5 percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the construction of the two towers.
The collection at NIST included samples of all the steel strength levels specified for the construction of the towers. The locations of all structural steel pieces in WTC 1 and WTC 2 were uniquely identified by stampings (recessed letters and numbers) and/or painted stencils.
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation page 87

So prove to everyone that I am lying by telling us where the information is located.

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psik
 
What in the name of all that is holy is the above post even trying to say?

Look, the simple fact is this - the building was built in such a way that each floor supported itself via the central supporting pillars. They were built to withstand the weight of a fully furnished and occupied office space, with some safety leeway for good measure. They were NOT, however, designed to withstand the weight of an ENTIRE EXTRA FLOOR landing on them at speed! The inertial forces of that alone are tremendous (do the math yourself, I'm tired, but the kinetic energy of several thousand pounds of concrete falling even just ten feet is quite severe, I promise you that) so once the first floor started to fall, the rest just domino effected.
 
Look, the simple fact is this - the building was built in such a way that each floor supported itself via the central supporting pillars.

The floor OUTSIDE THE CORE were supported byt the PERIMETER and the CORE.

The core supported 53% of the weight according to the NIST.

But the core of the top falling portion of the north tower had to come down on the core of the lower stationary portion and the core columns were connected by BEAMS not Trusses.

The south tower is a different story with the 22 degree tilt.There was no alignment for pancaking and the NIST has rejected the pancaking scenario anyway.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm

So you tell the NIST they are wrong. :D

psik
 
I am not saying it pancaked from the top down- if you watch the video, the south tower collapse started at the impact zone (which was well below the top floors) and the lower floors fell as the top, what, almost a full eighth of the building? fell onto it.

In the North tower it appears to be essentially the same thing.

I am unsure of what tilt you are talking about in the south tower - are you referring to how the top stories started to twist as they fell? That would make sense as the supporting structure gave way on the damaged side and gravity pulled down upon it - it still impacted the floors below it though.

Their own reports even supports what I am saying:

NIST setion 11 said:
The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.
Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”
In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.
From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.
 
I am not saying it pancaked from the top down- if you watch the video, the south tower collapse started at the impact zone (which was well below the top floors) and the lower floors fell as the top, what, almost a full eighth of the building? fell onto it.

Pancaking is not about where it started it is about a floor outside of the core falling on the one below and those two falling on the next etc.

But the bottom of the upper portion of the south tower moved 20 feet horizontally so the floors would not be aligned anyway.

The inertial forces of that alone are tremendous (do the math yourself, I'm tired, but the kinetic energy of several thousand pounds of concrete falling even just ten feet is quite severe, I promise you that) so once the first floor started to fall, the rest just domino effected.

You have more of a problem than being tired.

Several means more than two but not too many. So it should be less than 10,000 pounds.

A single concrete floor slab outside the core was 600 tons. Since a ton is 2,000 pounds that is 1,200,000 pounds. That is a bit more than SEVERAL thousand. So you should redo your calculations if you ever did any.

This is a Joke from the NIST:
In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

If that is true then why can't someone just build a physical model that can completely collapse? Why not just make the demonstration model and put this crap to rest? But no, all we get is talk claiming to be true.

Here is a model absorbing the kinetic energy with the damage to the supports just like the crush zone in a car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT4BXIpdIdo

[47,763]
psik
 
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