There isn’t a list NASA employees who think they did go to the moon, there isn’t a list of astronomers who think we aren’t being visited by aliens….As I've mentioned before, they are somewhat dependent on the government looking on them benevolently and giving them permissions to do buildings and such. Nevertheless, while they may not generally be vocal supporters of the alternate 9/11 theories out there, I certainly haven't seen a big list (or any list) of structural engineer supporters either. You have one handy or is it simply your belief that most structural engineers support the official 9/11 story?
There is however a list of peer reviewed papers by engineers. What do the troothers have? An environmental journal and a little known engineering journal which required only money to get published.
With your comment regarding steel being stronger than concrete you fail to recognize that steel will be affected by fire long before concrete will.Could be. I haven't bothered to look through the 500+ list, but if you'd like to, be my guest:
http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php
(you don't actually have to sign the petition to see the list).
Very funny . I'd argue that it's actually the official story believers who are being misled, ofcourse...
Which comment was that?
What are you talking about? In this context ‘peer’ is the scientific community. The process is one well known by those in the scientific field yet after seven years the troothers avoid it because their evidence will not stand up to the scrutiny.The freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses. I was taking a look at the term 'peer' in wikipedia; the first entry was:
"A member of the peerage, a system of honours or nobility in various countries"
Now, I know that in America, 'nobility' doesn't quite exist anymore per se, but let's be honest; if anyone fits the bill for american nobility, politicians and the mainstream media barons would certainly qualify. And yet, it is these very groups who are accused of malfeasance in 9/11. Surely you see the potential for a conflict of interest in spreading the truth for them if they were guilty?
Irrelevant rambling. I will just reiterate my point. That you keep pointing to his cold fusion journals shows that you don’t know what is going on. It is a desperate appeal to authority.I'm trying to make it clear that this is a guy who -has- been published the creme de la creme of mainstream scientific publications; that is, when the issue wasn't as controversial and politically dangerous as his views on 9/11. But as I told Kenny a while back, it took scientists about 50 years to realize that man made global warming was the real deal. So perhaps it'll be a while yet before many if not most scientists realize the real perpetrators behind 9/11. I'm curious: do you think that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman? Many now have doubts on that one, but some still believe that old yarn; there was a big comission on that one too, ofcourse. Back in the 'good ole' days', I believe that not so many people read though (no internet for one).
Here's a good quote for how things were done back then:
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During the Kennedy Administration, Dulles faced increasing criticism. The failed Bay of Pigs Invasion and several failed assassination plots utilizing CIA-recruited operatives from the Mafia and anti-Castro Cubans directly against Fidel Castro undermined the CIA's credibility, and pro-American but unpopular regimes in Iran and Guatemala that he helped put in place were widely regarded as brutal and corrupt. The reputation of the agency and its director declined after the Bay of Pigs Invasion fiasco; he and his staff (including Director for Plans Richard Bissell and Deputy Director Charles Cabell) were forced to resign (September 1961). President Kennedy did not trust the CIA, and he reportedly intended to dismantle it after the Bay of Pigs failure. Kennedy said he wanted to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds."[3] Ironically, Dulles was later appointed to the Warren Commission, the official government investigation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Dulles
And another good read, from Michael Rupper's "From the Wilderness" page:
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There's a quote often attributed to Allen Dulles after it was noted that the final 1964 report of the Warren Commission on the assassination of JFK contained dramatic inconsistencies. Those inconsistencies, in effect, disproved the Commission's own final conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone on November 22, 1963. Dulles, a career spy, Wall Street lawyer, the CIA director whom JFK had fired after the 1961 Bay of Pigs fiasco - and the Warren Commission member who took charge of the investigation and final report - is reported to have said, "The American people don't read."
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http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html
Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times these days, where many prefer to spend more time reading, offline and on, then catching soundbites from television. Don't get me wrong, I like television, but I certainly don't trust it as a news source.
It’s a pathetic and irrelvant question. I’m not a scientist writing papers about jebus visiting the Americas or conspiracy theories. He is.Actually, it's a question, which I see you've decided not to answer.
Your stupidity has no limits. You seem to be under the impression that because someone has been published they are never incorrect on anything for the rest of their life. That is absolutely foolish.Ok, you stick to your ps and qs.
But these people have been published. By you’re your brilliant logic they cannot be questioned! Have you had work published in a science journal? So how can you just know that it is fallacy rich? Blind faith.Personally, I don't think justice for the deaths of the 3000 people killed on 9/11 and the indirect deaths of thousands more as a consequence of that da should have to wait for the truth to go through the 'recognized process'.
Post excerpts that you feel are important to your points if you wish, as I do. There's only so much time I have in a day and I'm not going to read what I assume will be fallacy rich material just for the heck of it.
I pointed out the stupidity of it the first time.I'd argue it's more the other way around. I wouldn't post it again if I felt you'd understood the message the first time.
I’m sure you would like that. I will keep pointing out your mistakes for a while longer.If you feel you aren't making progress here, you are free to leave this discussion.
Keep dodging and weaving.I admit I can neither prove nor disprove what you're saying. I'm not a physicist or an engineer of any type, after all. However, is what you're saying supported by any of the official story voices, is this something you got from some guy somewhere or is this wholly of your creation?
I’m not sure about that but it is irrelevant as the aluminum at WTC would have probably had other materials in it.I would argue that that's not the case; that when it looks orange, it's actually simply the reflection of the container from which it's being poured from. In the WTC building, we never see any 'container' of the molten metal, it simply goes down as yellow/white and -stays- so all the way down.
Only to the gullible who see what they want to see.NIST's explanation of office materials has been handily debunked.
As pointed out there were steel columns which were so soft that they were described like licorice. Clearly the temperatures did go over 450C.Actually, I'm not implying anything in that article; I'm quoting someone (Jim Hoffman) who is outright declaring that the NIST report is contradictory in certain regards. If anyone is cherry picking, it'd be the author of the quote in question, but I would argue that far from doing so, he's legitimately pointing out a contradiction in the NIST report. The article in question does need a little mental sleuthing. I'll break it down. First, let's start with the opening statement made by Jim Hoffman:
The Report repeatedly makes claims that amazingly high fire temperatures were extant in the Towers, without any evidence. The Report itself contains evidence contradicting the claims.
This could be said to be his thesis.
Next, he goes about making his case. First, he quotes a section of NIST's report:
"Observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 ºC: east face, floor 98, inner web; east face, floor 92, inner web; and north face, floor 98, floor truss connector. Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. " (p 90/140)
He quotes that section to make it clear that what he states next is coming from NIST's own report:
The highest temperatures estimated for the samples was 250 ºC (482 ºF). That's consistent with the results of fire tests in uninsulated steel-framed parking garages, which showed maximum steel temperatures of 360 ºC (680 ºF).
Then, he comes in for the uppercut:
How interesting then, that NIST's sagging truss model has the truss heated to 700 ºC (1292 ºF)., he tells us, and then proceeds to show us that NIST does just that:
"A floor section was modeled to investigate failure modes and sequences of failures under combined gravity and thermal loads. The floor section was heated to 700 ºC (with a linear thermal gradient through the slab thickness from 700 ºC to 300 ºC at the top surface of the slab) over a period of 30 min. Initially the thermal expansion of the floor pushed the columns outward, but with increased temperatures, the floor sagged and the columns were pulled inward." (p 98/148)
He further hammers it in, saying:
Where does NIST get the idea that steel temperatures should be more than 450 degrees Celsius (or 842 degrees Fahrenheit) higher than their own evidence indicates? This passage provides some insight into their experimental method.
Someone here has argued that clearly, there were pieces of the WTC building that got hotter then 250C. And that's certainly true. The problem is how very -unlikely- those temperatures could have been reached due to fire. I have a very strong feeling that some if not all within NIST were well aware of this and were trying to tiptoe around this fact. Perhaps I'm mistaken and the issue here is that they were speaking only of a certain part of the WTC towers and these were the only samples they knew to be from that section. In any case, the samples they took for this part of their report only show indications of being heated to 250C. Good if you want to suppress evidence that anything but office fires took place, but absolutely awful if you want to prove that the fires took the building down.
What to do? Simply heat up the test steel to temperatures that mean business. Perhaps they felt that the report was huge and no one important would notice. Just how much fire was poured on to get the desired effects? Jim Hoffman gets the relevant quote from NIST:
"A spray burner generating 1.9 MW or 3.4 MW of power was ignited in a 23 ft by 11.8 ft by 12.5 ft high compartment. The temperatures near the ceiling approached 900 ºC." (p 123/173)
Jim Hoffman now closes in for the kill:
1.9 to 3.4 MW (megawatts) is the heat output of about 500 wood stoves -- that in a living-room-sized space!
He then sets NIST up, quoting the following section:
"The jet fuel greatly accelerated the fire growth. Only about 60 percent of the combustible mass of the rubblized workstations was consumed. The near-ceiling temperatures varied between 800 ºC and 1,100 ºC. "(p 125-6/175-6)
He now delivers the coup de gras:
Temperatures of 800 ºC to 1,100 ºC (1472 ºF to 2012 ºF) are normally observed only for brief times in building fires, in a phenomenon known as flashover. Flashover occurs when uncombusted gases accumulate near the ceilings and then suddenly ignite. Since flame consumes the pre-heated fuel-air mixture in an instant, very high temperatures are produced for a few seconds. Note that this temperature range includes the 900 ºC recorded using the megawatt super-burner, so they must have had to pour on quite a lot of jet fuel.
The first section of the Report describing the fires deceptively implies that 1,000 ºC (1832 ºF) temperatures (rarely seen in even momentary flashovers) were sustained, and that they were in the building's core.
The article goes on regarding other NIST report flaws, complete with some good graphics. You might want to take a look:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html