9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)

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As I've mentioned before, they are somewhat dependent on the government looking on them benevolently and giving them permissions to do buildings and such. Nevertheless, while they may not generally be vocal supporters of the alternate 9/11 theories out there, I certainly haven't seen a big list (or any list) of structural engineer supporters either. You have one handy or is it simply your belief that most structural engineers support the official 9/11 story?
There isn’t a list NASA employees who think they did go to the moon, there isn’t a list of astronomers who think we aren’t being visited by aliens….

There is however a list of peer reviewed papers by engineers. What do the troothers have? An environmental journal and a little known engineering journal which required only money to get published.

Could be. I haven't bothered to look through the 500+ list, but if you'd like to, be my guest:
http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

(you don't actually have to sign the petition to see the list).




Very funny :p. I'd argue that it's actually the official story believers who are being misled, ofcourse...




Which comment was that?
With your comment regarding steel being stronger than concrete you fail to recognize that steel will be affected by fire long before concrete will.



The freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses. I was taking a look at the term 'peer' in wikipedia; the first entry was:
"A member of the peerage, a system of honours or nobility in various countries"

Now, I know that in America, 'nobility' doesn't quite exist anymore per se, but let's be honest; if anyone fits the bill for american nobility, politicians and the mainstream media barons would certainly qualify. And yet, it is these very groups who are accused of malfeasance in 9/11. Surely you see the potential for a conflict of interest in spreading the truth for them if they were guilty?
What are you talking about? In this context ‘peer’ is the scientific community. The process is one well known by those in the scientific field yet after seven years the troothers avoid it because their evidence will not stand up to the scrutiny.



I'm trying to make it clear that this is a guy who -has- been published the creme de la creme of mainstream scientific publications; that is, when the issue wasn't as controversial and politically dangerous as his views on 9/11. But as I told Kenny a while back, it took scientists about 50 years to realize that man made global warming was the real deal. So perhaps it'll be a while yet before many if not most scientists realize the real perpetrators behind 9/11. I'm curious: do you think that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman? Many now have doubts on that one, but some still believe that old yarn; there was a big comission on that one too, ofcourse. Back in the 'good ole' days', I believe that not so many people read though (no internet for one).

Here's a good quote for how things were done back then:
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During the Kennedy Administration, Dulles faced increasing criticism. The failed Bay of Pigs Invasion and several failed assassination plots utilizing CIA-recruited operatives from the Mafia and anti-Castro Cubans directly against Fidel Castro undermined the CIA's credibility, and pro-American but unpopular regimes in Iran and Guatemala that he helped put in place were widely regarded as brutal and corrupt. The reputation of the agency and its director declined after the Bay of Pigs Invasion fiasco; he and his staff (including Director for Plans Richard Bissell and Deputy Director Charles Cabell) were forced to resign (September 1961). President Kennedy did not trust the CIA, and he reportedly intended to dismantle it after the Bay of Pigs failure. Kennedy said he wanted to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds."[3] Ironically, Dulles was later appointed to the Warren Commission, the official government investigation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Dulles

And another good read, from Michael Rupper's "From the Wilderness" page:
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There's a quote often attributed to Allen Dulles after it was noted that the final 1964 report of the Warren Commission on the assassination of JFK contained dramatic inconsistencies. Those inconsistencies, in effect, disproved the Commission's own final conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone on November 22, 1963. Dulles, a career spy, Wall Street lawyer, the CIA director whom JFK had fired after the 1961 Bay of Pigs fiasco - and the Warren Commission member who took charge of the investigation and final report - is reported to have said, "The American people don't read."

*******************************
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html

Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times these days, where many prefer to spend more time reading, offline and on, then catching soundbites from television. Don't get me wrong, I like television, but I certainly don't trust it as a news source.
Irrelevant rambling. I will just reiterate my point. That you keep pointing to his cold fusion journals shows that you don’t know what is going on. It is a desperate appeal to authority.



Actually, it's a question, which I see you've decided not to answer.
It’s a pathetic and irrelvant question. I’m not a scientist writing papers about jebus visiting the Americas or conspiracy theories. He is.



Ok, you stick to your ps and qs.
Your stupidity has no limits. You seem to be under the impression that because someone has been published they are never incorrect on anything for the rest of their life. That is absolutely foolish.


Personally, I don't think justice for the deaths of the 3000 people killed on 9/11 and the indirect deaths of thousands more as a consequence of that da should have to wait for the truth to go through the 'recognized process'.




Post excerpts that you feel are important to your points if you wish, as I do. There's only so much time I have in a day and I'm not going to read what I assume will be fallacy rich material just for the heck of it.
But these people have been published. By you’re your brilliant logic they cannot be questioned! Have you had work published in a science journal? So how can you just know that it is fallacy rich? Blind faith.


I'd argue it's more the other way around. I wouldn't post it again if I felt you'd understood the message the first time.
I pointed out the stupidity of it the first time.


If you feel you aren't making progress here, you are free to leave this discussion.
I’m sure you would like that. I will keep pointing out your mistakes for a while longer.




I admit I can neither prove nor disprove what you're saying. I'm not a physicist or an engineer of any type, after all. However, is what you're saying supported by any of the official story voices, is this something you got from some guy somewhere or is this wholly of your creation?
Keep dodging and weaving.


I would argue that that's not the case; that when it looks orange, it's actually simply the reflection of the container from which it's being poured from. In the WTC building, we never see any 'container' of the molten metal, it simply goes down as yellow/white and -stays- so all the way down.
I’m not sure about that but it is irrelevant as the aluminum at WTC would have probably had other materials in it.



NIST's explanation of office materials has been handily debunked.
Only to the gullible who see what they want to see.


Actually, I'm not implying anything in that article; I'm quoting someone (Jim Hoffman) who is outright declaring that the NIST report is contradictory in certain regards. If anyone is cherry picking, it'd be the author of the quote in question, but I would argue that far from doing so, he's legitimately pointing out a contradiction in the NIST report. The article in question does need a little mental sleuthing. I'll break it down. First, let's start with the opening statement made by Jim Hoffman:
The Report repeatedly makes claims that amazingly high fire temperatures were extant in the Towers, without any evidence. The Report itself contains evidence contradicting the claims.

This could be said to be his thesis.

Next, he goes about making his case. First, he quotes a section of NIST's report:
"Observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 ºC: east face, floor 98, inner web; east face, floor 92, inner web; and north face, floor 98, floor truss connector. Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. " (p 90/140)

He quotes that section to make it clear that what he states next is coming from NIST's own report:
The highest temperatures estimated for the samples was 250 ºC (482 ºF). That's consistent with the results of fire tests in uninsulated steel-framed parking garages, which showed maximum steel temperatures of 360 ºC (680 ºF).

Then, he comes in for the uppercut:
How interesting then, that NIST's sagging truss model has the truss heated to 700 ºC (1292 ºF)., he tells us, and then proceeds to show us that NIST does just that:
"A floor section was modeled to investigate failure modes and sequences of failures under combined gravity and thermal loads. The floor section was heated to 700 ºC (with a linear thermal gradient through the slab thickness from 700 ºC to 300 ºC at the top surface of the slab) over a period of 30 min. Initially the thermal expansion of the floor pushed the columns outward, but with increased temperatures, the floor sagged and the columns were pulled inward." (p 98/148)

He further hammers it in, saying:
Where does NIST get the idea that steel temperatures should be more than 450 degrees Celsius (or 842 degrees Fahrenheit) higher than their own evidence indicates? This passage provides some insight into their experimental method.

Someone here has argued that clearly, there were pieces of the WTC building that got hotter then 250C. And that's certainly true. The problem is how very -unlikely- those temperatures could have been reached due to fire. I have a very strong feeling that some if not all within NIST were well aware of this and were trying to tiptoe around this fact. Perhaps I'm mistaken and the issue here is that they were speaking only of a certain part of the WTC towers and these were the only samples they knew to be from that section. In any case, the samples they took for this part of their report only show indications of being heated to 250C. Good if you want to suppress evidence that anything but office fires took place, but absolutely awful if you want to prove that the fires took the building down.

What to do? Simply heat up the test steel to temperatures that mean business. Perhaps they felt that the report was huge and no one important would notice. Just how much fire was poured on to get the desired effects? Jim Hoffman gets the relevant quote from NIST:
"A spray burner generating 1.9 MW or 3.4 MW of power was ignited in a 23 ft by 11.8 ft by 12.5 ft high compartment. The temperatures near the ceiling approached 900 ºC." (p 123/173)

Jim Hoffman now closes in for the kill:
1.9 to 3.4 MW (megawatts) is the heat output of about 500 wood stoves -- that in a living-room-sized space!

He then sets NIST up, quoting the following section:
"The jet fuel greatly accelerated the fire growth. Only about 60 percent of the combustible mass of the rubblized workstations was consumed. The near-ceiling temperatures varied between 800 ºC and 1,100 ºC. "(p 125-6/175-6)

He now delivers the coup de gras:
Temperatures of 800 ºC to 1,100 ºC (1472 ºF to 2012 ºF) are normally observed only for brief times in building fires, in a phenomenon known as flashover. Flashover occurs when uncombusted gases accumulate near the ceilings and then suddenly ignite. Since flame consumes the pre-heated fuel-air mixture in an instant, very high temperatures are produced for a few seconds. Note that this temperature range includes the 900 ºC recorded using the megawatt super-burner, so they must have had to pour on quite a lot of jet fuel.

The first section of the Report describing the fires deceptively implies that 1,000 ºC (1832 ºF) temperatures (rarely seen in even momentary flashovers) were sustained, and that they were in the building's core.


The article goes on regarding other NIST report flaws, complete with some good graphics. You might want to take a look:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
As pointed out there were steel columns which were so soft that they were described like licorice. Clearly the temperatures did go over 450C.
 
Another common sense argument..

This is election season...if there was any real and clear evidence that George II had any part in this..the media would on this like stink on shit. But that hasn't happened..why? No one can buy out all the media..including all the blogs...why isn't there more outrage? The reason why is the story is ridiculous.
 
Alright, at the very least, it should have made a significant dent in the road then :p. .

No 767s, but I believe that planes have hit a high rise or 2 in the past. Aside from the fact that WTC 7 wasn't hit by any high rise, there is also evidence that the planes made negligible damage to the buildings and certainly not enough to bring them down.
There has been no crash anything like what happened on 9/11. A smaller, lighter, slower plane hit the empire state building.



The WTC fires were not 'completely out of reach'.
Their hoses couldn’t reach the fire so yes they were out of reach.

That canard has already been dealt with by Steven Jones:
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4. Horizontal puffs of smoke and debris are observed emerging from WTC-7 on upper floors, in regular sequence, just as the building starts to collapse. (The reader may wish to view the close-up video clip again.) The upper floors have not moved relative to one another yet, as one can verify from the videos. In addition, the timing between the puffs is less than 0.2 seconds so air-expulsion due to collapsing floors is excluded. Free-fall time for a floor to fall down to the next floor is significantly longer than 0.2 seconds: the equation for free fall, y = ½ gt2, yields a little over 0.6 seconds, as this is near the initiation of the collapse.

However, the presence of such “squibs” proceeding up the side of the building is common when pre-positioned explosives are used, as can be observed at http://www.implosionworld.com/cinema.html. The same site shows that rapid timing between explosive squibs is also common. (It is instructive to view several of the implosion videos at this web site.) Thus, squibs as observed during the collapse of WTC 7 going up the side of the building in rapid sequence provide additional significant evidence for the use of pre-placed explosives.

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http://physics911.net/stevenjones
He is talking about WTC7. :rolleyes:



Firefighters also described many explosions; explosives are capable of creating quite strong 'winds'.
Yeah wind explosives. .. Don’t you think there would be compressed air as the building pancaked?

Well maybe those last 2 links aren't exactly right :). I don't know. It's not part of the mainstream alternative theories as far as I know, but you never know :cool:
Mainstream alernative?

Look, if the matter is important, I won't accept what a JREFer says based solely on his or her own word. If you want to make a claim, attempt to prove it with logic or at the very least show an authoritive source. Anyone can make claims (holographic planes, la-zers, deaths rays, you name it). The trick is to have some evidence or atleast logic to back it up. Anyway, I've now watched 12 minutes for SLC. I think that may well do for another few months at any rate. As I have mentioned in the past, if there's a particular point you'd like to get across that's in SLC, you may tell me to watch a particular minute for something. Other then that, I sincerely doubt I'm going to see the 'not freakin' again' version or any other any time soon.
No you have no intention of seeing anything that may accidentally debunk the story. You only want to see one side.


Surely you're aware that the military frequently test drives 'future technologies'. You know, there was actually something blown up in New York before the WTC, despite explosives not being allowed as a rule. Paul Isaac, who was dubbed a 9/11 hero, did an investigation on it:
http://www.mail-archive.com/cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com/msg09508.html
Which doesn’t change the fact that there were no evidence for explosives.

So now I'm a 'moron'?
Actually I didn’t have you in mind when I wrote that.

Look, 7 years have passed since 9/11. Bush is about to walk out of office and there has still been no serious investigation into many things regarding 9/11. If you ask me, they've done a pretty good job of keeping the lid on things. Maybe enough people won't -really- start to question until they're long gone.
The intelligent, well informed will not believe the conspiracy in ten years or one hundred years.

How is it obvious? You clearly still aren't convinced.
You are accusing them of making it obvious, not me. You seem to think they would execute such a ridiculous, needlessly complicated super conspiracy plan and yet leave clues that theologians could pick up on…

I admit that the nuke theory isn't one of the mainstream alternate theories. But I still consider it a possibility.
wow
 
As pointed out there were steel columns which were so soft that they were described like licorice. Clearly the temperatures did go over 450C.

Just because some idiot described the steel as licorice doesn't mean he had the slightest bit of evidence to support the statement. People who chose to believe that the planes could bring the buildings down that fast had to rationalize it after their destruction. They chose to refuse to consider the possibility that anything else was involved.

Search the NCSTAR1 report. Specify any evidence for the fire being over 600 deg C. How can 600 deg C turn steel into licorice in less than 2 hours?

psik
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
but I have a strong feeling that the loss of so many of their own and the suspicion that the government was, at the very least, not being completely honest with them as to what happened that day caused some of them to speak anyway.

Who is speaking up?

Despite the gag order, a bunch of firefighters did speak up; take a look:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_firefighters.html


Scott I do actually try to avoid ad hominem but I can’t help but question your grip on reality at times.

I also think that your view of reality regarding 9/11 is skewed, but I strongly believe that how we view reality is based on all our life's experiences. If you believe that elements of the government could never do the types of things that occurred on 9/11, it would be very hard to persuade you otherwise.
 
new video of collapse clearly shows charges going off.
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v16415132HnA38zEp

i know i didnt see any charges going off. that video is the best proof that no bombs were planted.

but I strongly believe that how we view reality is based on all our life's experiences. If you believe that elements of the government could never do the types of things that occurred on 9/11, it would be very hard to persuade you otherwise.

belief has no place in an investigation and that is why no one pays you to investigate these things.
 
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belief has no place in an investigation and that is why no one pays you to investigate these things.

Are we supposed to BELIEVE that an investigation of top down gravitational collapses of buildings 1360 feet tall can be done competently without knowing the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the buildings?

The buildings could not even be constructed without that having been figured out before they dug the holes for the foundations.

So why don't we have it after SEVEN YEARS and why isn't everyone demanding it?

psik
 
plus...that is AFTER the collapse has begun, charges would need to go off BEFORE the collapse starts to be effective.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
Originally Posted by shaman_
Originally Posted by scott3x
Originally Posted by shaman_
which aren’t even that effective for demolition...

Nano thermite is -very- effective when it comes to cutting into iron based metals (such as steel). Where are you getting your information from?

jref.

Is there any other source for this other than a 9/11 debunking forum? In any case, Kevin Ryan says this:
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it is worthwhile to reiterate that nano-thermite materials were very likely used in the deceptive demolition of the WTC buildings, but most certainly played only a part in the plan. However, other high-tech explosives were available to those who had access to nano-thermite materials at the time. Like SDI, several other organizations with links to military, space and intelligence programs (e.g. In-Q-Tel, Orbital Science) have access to many types of high-tech explosives to cut high-strength bolts and produce pyrotechnic events (Goldstein 2006). These organizations also have connections to those who could have accessed the buildings, like WTC tenant Marsh & McLennan and former NASA administrator and Securacom director, James Abrahamson.
************************************
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf , page 5

Heh. You see now that your complaint is a little silly, I hope.

Kevin Ryan is a respected alternate theory source. shaman hasn't even -named- his source on JREF. In any case, there's plenty of evidence that nano thermites are super explosives, much more powerful then normal explosives. Take this government pdf, for example:
http://aps-ca.lbl.gov/2007/session2B/aps2B1winterberg.pdf
 
Those are very small reflections plus they look enhanced in post production.
How do you know what caused the flashes?
"those are" - are you relying on science here or are you relying on your belief?
why do you think they are small? the viewer is half mile away and they are visible with all that dust obscuring the view. why do they only occur in the part of the tower that it is still standing?
reflections from what exactly? what in the towers core was capable of producing reflections through the thick dust cloud to be viewable half mile away? whenpeople caught in the dust cloud could not see their hand in front of their face!
what do you mean "enhanced in post production" - they are seen in other videos, is all visual evidence to be disgarded now because it doesn't fit your belief?
There are other flashes that show smoke emanating from the point of the flash, how are you going to explain that away?

Regardless, when a skyscraper unintentionally collapses there will be explosions so i dont see what the fascination is.
only in your imagination. what an absurdity! how many unintentional skyscraper collapses have you seen? you are just making it up to fit YOUR belief!
 
Yes, steel can be weakened by fire. But, as Kevin Ryan made clear when NIST was conducting its $16 million, two-year investigation of the collapse of the twin towers:
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Ryan wrote that the institute's preliminary reports suggest the WTC's supports were probably exposed to fires no hotter than 500 degrees -- only half the 1,100-degree temperature needed to forge steel, Ryan said. That's also much cooler, he wrote, than the 3,000 degrees needed to melt bare steel with no fire-proofing.

"This story just does not add up," Ryan wrote in his e-mail to Frank Gayle, deputy chief of the institute's metallurgy division, who is playing a prominent role in the agency investigation. "If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers.

He added, "Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around (500 degrees) suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company."
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http://www.wanttoknow.info/911kevinrryanfired

Kevin is wrong regarding the temperatures. The twisted steel, the bowing and the other examples conclusively prove that.

Ok, can you explain to me (or link to it if you feel you already have) how the twisted steel, alleged bowing and other examples conclusively prove he was wrong?

?? Because it was warped by the temperature, that's why.

Kevin made it clear that the fires were incapable of doing that; he never said that explosives were incapable of doing it.


Because it was in imminent collapse.

Only in NIST's tweaked model.


Do you think the explosives warped it?

I and many others.


The thermite first heated up, then exploded?

No, just exploded.
 
plus...that is AFTER the collapse has begun, charges would need to go off BEFORE the collapse starts to be effective.

the towers were three times higher than most big skyscrapers. they were designed like 3 skyscrapers on top of each other. watch any demolition, you will see they charges go off in seperate distinct stages.

it is ridiculous to assert that all charges have to go off at the same instant.
 
How do you know what caused the flashes?
"those are" - are you relying on science here or are you relying on your belief?

you obviously do not have an analytical mind or the sophistication to understand things that go beyond the very basic.

you call yourself headspin but you are really headgame or maybe even headcase.
 
pretty much, and they sure look enhanced but either way those small reflections would not amount to anything.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
I'd say that's what a 110 building looks like when it -explosively- collapses from the top.

That is arrant nonsense - the building's upper stories fell down onto the lower. They didn't bloody explode.

More then 520 Architects and Engineers quetion or downright disagree with your view. You may want to take a look at their reasoning:
http://www.ae911truth.org/ (it's on the right hand side of the page).
 
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