9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)

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Another common sense argument..

This is election season...if there was any real and clear evidence that George II had any part in this..the media would on this like stink on shit. But that hasn't happened..why? No one can buy out all the media..including all the blogs...why isn't there more outrage? The reason why is the story is ridiculous.

The evidence isn't clear, per se, but it certainly isn't 'ridiculous' either. It's taken years to get to this point, wherein we may be approaching a critical mass of people who question the official story. You're right that no one can buy out all the media. You may have noticed, however, that there are some media outlets (such as blogs and truther sites) that are very concerned indeed regarding what happened on 9/11.

Believe me, if I thought this issue was like most, I wouldn't put so much time into it. I really do hope that Obama wins the U.S. presidential election, but I can't be bothered to focus any real time in that discussion because I think this is far more important and will continue to be an issue regardless of who wins the presidential election on Tuesday.
 
There has been no crash anything like what happened on 9/11. A smaller, lighter, slower plane hit the empire state building.

No plane hit WTC 7 at all; and yet, it collapsed demolition style as well (that one didn't even bother to go from the top down, but instead followed the traditional bottom up demolition). There is also evidence that the planes did negligible damage to the structural integrity of the twin towers.
 
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Originally Posted by scott3x
Perhaps you are a 'reverse conspiracy' believer. 9/11 Research explains just how much evidence would have had to be tampered with in order for no squibs to have actually been present:
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Squibs

High-Velocity "Demolition Squibs" Are Visible in the Twin Towers' Collapses

Squibs are "blasting caps (initiators) used in the explosive industry to set off high explosives." 1 In discussions of the collapses of the WTC skyscrapers, the term has been appropriated to describe the physical appearance of puffs or jets of dust emerging from buildings during a demolition, caused by the detonation of explosive charges. Several such "squibs" can be seen in videos and photographs capturing the collapses of the North and South Towers.

It has been suggested that the evident squibs could have been added to the photographs and videos after the fact, given that much of this evidence has found its way onto the web via undocumented routes. However, the squibs show up in many diverse videos and photographs, and we have not been able to find any showing the squibs to be absent. A conspiracy of incredible proportions would be required to forge such convincing evidence of squibs in such diverse sources.
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The article goes on here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/squibs.html


He doesn't specify. In any case, these squibs, in my view, are conclusive evidence that the WTC buildings were, in fact, controlled demolitions.

The 'squibs' are a probably result of the air being pushed downwards.

That canard has already been dealt with by Steven Jones:
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4. Horizontal puffs of smoke and debris are observed emerging from WTC-7 on upper floors, in regular sequence, just as the building starts to collapse. (The reader may wish to view the close-up video clip again.) The upper floors have not moved relative to one another yet, as one can verify from the videos. In addition, the timing between the puffs is less than 0.2 seconds so air-expulsion due to collapsing floors is excluded. Free-fall time for a floor to fall down to the next floor is significantly longer than 0.2 seconds: the equation for free fall, y = ½ gt2, yields a little over 0.6 seconds, as this is near the initiation of the collapse.

However, the presence of such “squibs” proceeding up the side of the building is common when pre-positioned explosives are used, as can be observed at http://www.implosionworld.com/cinema.html. The same site shows that rapid timing between explosive squibs is also common. (It is instructive to view several of the implosion videos at this web site.) Thus, squibs as observed during the collapse of WTC 7 going up the side of the building in rapid sequence provide additional significant evidence for the use of pre-placed explosives.
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http://physics911.net/stevenjones

He is talking about WTC7. :rolleyes:

Ah, true. I wish I could do the types of calculations Steven Jones did for WTC 7 for the twin towers, but I can't. In any case, 'air pushed downwards' theory sounds a lot like NIST's 'piston' theory. The first link I mentioned refutes this theory handily:
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NIST's final Report on the Twin Towers mentions the piston theory to attempt to explain away the ejections:
The falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it, much like the action of a piston, forcing material, such as smoke and debris, out the windows as seen in several videos.

There are several problems with this explanation, which we designate the piston theory.

* The squibs contain thick dust of a light color, apparently from crushed concrete and gypsum. But these materials would not have been crushed until the pancaking floors above impacted the floor emitting the squib. Thus the dust would not be produced until the air was already squeezed out, so there was no source of the dust for the squib.
* The squibs emerge from the facade 10 to 20 floors below the exploding rubble cloud inside of which the tower is disintegrating. The thick clouds appear to contain the pulverized concerete of the floor slabs, which was the only concrete component of the tower. But the piston theory requires that the floors have already pancaked down to the level of the squib, making them unavailable for the production of the concrete dust more than 10 floors above.
* The piston theory requires a rather orderly pancaking of the floor diaphragms within the intact sleeve of the perimeter wall. Such a process should have left a stack of floor diaphragms at the tower's base at the end of the collapse. But there was no such stack. In fact, it is difficult to find recognizable pieces of floor slabs of any size in Ground Zero photographs.
* The North Tower exhibits three distinct sets of squibs at different elevations of the building. Each set is visible as two distinct squibs on the same floor, one emerging from about the horizontal center of each of the tower's two visible faces. This pattern is is far too focused and symmetric to be explained by the piston theory, which would produce similar pressures across each floor and over successive floors.
* The pancaking of floors within the perimeter wall would have created underpressures in the region above the top pancaking floor. But we see no evidence of dust being sucked back into the tower.
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http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/squibs.html
 
Well maybe those last 2 links aren't exactly right :). I don't know. It's not part of the mainstream alternative theories as far as I know, but you never know :cool:

Mainstream alernative?

Yeah; there are mainstream alternative theories and then there are more marginal theories. The mainstream theories are from noted authors, such as David Ray Griffin and Jim Marrs, as well as scientists such as Steven Jones.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
Look, if the matter is important, I won't accept what a JREFer says based solely on his or her own word. If you want to make a claim, attempt to prove it with logic or at the very least show an authoritive source. Anyone can make claims (holographic planes, la-zers, deaths rays, you name it). The trick is to have some evidence or atleast logic to back it up. Anyway, I've now watched 12 minutes for SLC. I think that may well do for another few months at any rate. As I have mentioned in the past, if there's a particular point you'd like to get across that's in SLC, you may tell me to watch a particular minute for something. Other then that, I sincerely doubt I'm going to see the 'not freakin' again' version or any other any time soon.

No you have no intention of seeing anything that may accidentally debunk the story. You only want to see one side.

If that were true, I would -not- spend so much time here. I'd spend most (if not all) of my time amoung fellow truthers, in the many such forums available. Instead, I have actually gotten a few over here, most notably Headspin. The problem with staying in those forums, in my view, is that you aren't challenged enough; preaching to the choir is easy; debating in this arena isn't.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
Surely you're aware that the military frequently test drives 'future technologies'. You know, there was actually something blown up in New York before the WTC, despite explosives not being allowed as a rule. Paul Isaac, who was dubbed a 9/11 hero, did an investigation on it:
http://www.mail-archive.com/cia-drugs@yahoogroups.com/msg09508.html

Which doesn’t change the fact that there was no evidence for explosives.

There was plenty of evidence for explosives:

"Eyewitness Reports Of Explosions Before WTC Collapses"
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/eyewitness.html

"9/11 Firefighters: Bombs and Explosions in the WTC"
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_firefighters.html

"9/11 Rescuer Saw Explosions Inside WTC 6 Lobby"
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/02/911-rescuer-saw-explosions-inside-wtc.html

"Theories that Distributed Explosives Destroyed the Twin Towers "
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/theories/explosives.html

"How Strong Is The Evidence For A Controlled Demolition?"
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse update/
 
There is also evidence that the planes did negligible damage to the structural integrity of the twin towers.

How can there be evidence of that when the towers collapsed?

If the towers and building 7 had not collapse the aftermath would not have changed anyway. Except the idiots making money off it would not have an industry to hawk books and dvd's or web sites or play film (mockumentaries) maker.
 
Wow, so much bullshit since I last checked here.

If they are not a bunch of corrupt bastards, why
didn't they even check to see if explosives were used? What moron of a scientist would predetermine explosives were not used before even initiating investingations.

Because of 2 major problems with the demolition hypothesis. Firstly:

They could not figure out any practical method for remotely detonating thermite and holding it in place with the steel so that the steel is destroyed. Even truthers have never shown how this is supposed to be possible.

Secondly, we have to lack of sounds and lack of blown out windows which rule out conventional demolition explosives.

Just because some idiot described the steel as licorice doesn't mean he had the slightest bit of evidence to support the statement. People who chose to believe that the planes could bring the buildings down that fast had to rationalize it after their destruction. They chose to refuse to consider the possibility that anything else was involved.

Search the NCSTAR1 report. Specify any evidence for the fire being over 600 deg C. How can 600 deg C turn steel into licorice in less than 2 hours?

psik

Steel was inspected and Headspin gave us all an url which unwittingly proved him false. The expert investigated the steel and told us how it was warped and twisted which would have been in keeping with fire in temperatures stated by NIST. Office fires can and do reach temperatures up to 1832F, and with the aircraft piling up combustable materials to one area, it burned verociously at this temperature.

More then 520 Architects and Engineers quetion or downright disagree with your view. You may want to take a look at their reasoning:
http://www.ae911truth.org/ (it's on the right hand side of the page).

That is not a scientific arena any more than a creationist website that has the names of people with Ph.D's. They have to pass peer-review beyond their biased website.

Doesn't a skyscraper have to support its own weight?

Yes, assuming all the peices are connected.

Doesn't it have to withstand the lateral forces of the wind of 100+ mph?

What does this have to do with impact from a 500 mph 767 or fire at 1800 degrees?

So for a straight down gravitational collapse to occur as a result of an airliner impact and fire doesn't the portion above the impact have to progressively crush and destroy everything beneath? So to analyze this supposed event don't we need to know the quantity of steel and concrete on every level as it had to be hit and destroyed in sequence?

Haven't you watched the video on YouTube of a 10 story apartment building collapsing to its footprint at near free fall speed due to fire alone?

So why don't we have a table specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the building after SEVEN YEARS. This simple physics problem should have been settled in less than a year but all of the EXPERTS should have admitted that information was necessary.

I'm pretty sure that information is already out there?

We know about the perimeter colums, the core columns (which weren't part on the initial collapse), the floor trusses, the thickness of concrete etc.

The entire? This is incorrect because only the dumb precent of these communities say otherwise. Real scientists who do not buy into all of that science fiction know that a fire definitely did not cause WTC7 to collapse.

Then how come I can not find any disagreement in the scientific community about anything regarding the WTC? Sure you can point to conspiracy theory websites, but I'm talking about science.

The science is of the matter is the only thing that counts. Who cares what any scientists opinion is. Show me some actual scientific fact. The fact is, that building was demolished.

Wow, halt the front page!

Oh wait, it's a fact even though no explosions were seen or heard? Or that even though people in the clean up operation had experience cleaning up demolished buildings, they found no remnants of any kind of demolition materials?

Buildings that are demolished typically go BOOM... which didn't happen on 9/11.

Even if the whole scientific community were to say it did or didn't collapse because of fire, they still need facts to back it up. Because all the facts point to demolition, there is no reason to believe that some fairies came, and collapsed it just as much as there is no reason to believe a fire broke out to collapse it.

If the facts pointed to demolition, science would say it was a demolition. They are not saying it was a demolition. It's only morons like you say that. Mostly men in their 20's with no qualifications in anything.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
Originally Posted by shaman_
That’s the contradictory nature of your super conspiracy. You believe that they could pull off the most intricate and expensive conspiracy of all time yet you accuse them of making it obvious.

How is it obvious? You clearly still aren't convinced.

You are accusing them of making it obvious, not me.

It's only obvious to people who listen to the information they receive with a truly open but questioning mind, who are prepared to believe that the U.S. government could do such things and who are prepared to do some serious research.


You seem to think they would execute such a ridiculous, needlessly complicated super conspiracy plan and yet leave clues that theologians could pick up on…

Only one theologian that I know of has picked up on it. You claim that the plan is ridiculous and in a way I agree; but then, terrorists of any nationality aren't exactly known for their rationality. However, if said terrorists had connections to U.S. politics and the military, the risks could be mitigated and the advantages would be significantly larger if they could get away with it. As to the complexity, I do believe that -that- part was quite necessary; if the plan had been too simple, I believe a lot more people would have figured it out by now.


Originally Posted by scott3x
I admit that the nuke theory isn't one of the mainstream alternate theories. But I still consider it a possibility.

wow

I have no evidence to disprove it, but the only evidence I've seen in its favor is the site I've shown you and possibly another one I saw a while back talking about tritium levels, which is something that is used in the initiation of fission bombs at any rate:
"Tritium is widely used in nuclear weapons for boosting a fission bomb or the fission primary of a thermonuclear weapon."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium
 
No plane hit WTC 7 at all; and yet, it collapsed demolition style as well (that one didn't even bother to go from the top down, but instead followed the traditional bottom up demolition).

1) If conventional demolition explosives were used on WTC7, where was the BOOM?

2) If thermite was used, then please explain how thermite can remotely cut thick steel beams.

Until you can justify these two problems, the raging inferno in the WTC7 will just have to be the best explanation.

Understood?

Thought not...

There is also evidence that the planes did negligible damage to the structural integrity of the twin towers.

You know that big hole which cut many perimeter and core columns? Tore up floors, removed fire proofing and on top of this had extremely hot fires weakening the already damaged building?

There's your loss of structural integrity right there.

I say we replicate these conditions and fill the tower with truthers like you and see if you would feel safe in this building. It wouldn't collapse... right?
 
NIST stateed clearly that they never checked for demolition use. Why if you are investing anything should you eliminate anything to check for? More importantly, only a moron investigating a building collapse would not check for possible use of demilitions. They are not real scientists. They are a joke.

When REAL SCIENTISTS investigated, it was so blatant that explosives were used that they didn't need to go out of their way to check it for controlled demolition. It stood out like an elephant would if you found one sitting in your living room.

I must admit I had to laugh at that :). And at the same time, it makes me rather.. angry if true.
 
Originally Posted by scott3x
There is also evidence that the planes did negligible damage to the structural integrity of the twin towers.

How can there be evidence of that when the towers collapsed?

The mainstream truther argument is that the towers were brought down by explosives.

Here's some articles on the negligible effects of the plane on the first tower to be hit:
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Second Clue -- First Report of First WTC Crash: The second clue comes from the first New York eyewitness on NBC. She had no question about what she saw. You could hear it in her voice. If she was the state's witness, the defense team would have their heads between their knees before she stopped talking.

What did she say? She heard an airplane coming in low and looked up. She saw a small private jet, and watched it fly into the first WTC tower, the North tower. She was certain in her description -- most people know the difference between a big round-nose commercial jet and a smaller plane.

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http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/analysis/publicaction_bumble.html

And this one:
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Observe that we have a hole in the tower which is approximately the size and shape of a 767, indicating that the alleged large passenger jet punched decisively through the building. Also observe that we have no wreckage significant enough to be identifiable.

The combination of these two factors is a forensic proof that it can not have been a plane of that size, as I shall explain shortly.

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http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=79


If the towers and building 7 had not collapse the aftermath would not have changed anyway.

:rolleyes: Um.. not quite.
 
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Originally Posted by scott3x
More then 520 Architects and Engineers quetion or downright disagree with your view. You may want to take a look at their reasoning:
http://www.ae911truth.org/ (it's on the right hand side of the page).

That is not a scientific arena any more than a creationist website that has the names of people with Ph.D's. They have to pass peer-review beyond their biased website.

You don't have to publish peer reviewed papers in order to make knowledgeable arguments on a subject. I think that architects and engineers might know a thing or 2 about what would and what wouldn't make a building collapse, don't you?
 
1) If conventional demolition explosives were used on WTC7, where was the BOOM?

Where did I say conventional explosives were used? As to evidence that it was a controlled demolition:
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Observing the collapse of 47-story WTC 7 shows it to have all of the features of an implosion engineered by controlled demolition.

* The collapse of the main structure commences suddenly (several seconds after the penthouse falls).
* The building sinks in a precisely vertical manner into its footprint.
* Puffs of dust emerge from the building's facade early in the event.
* The collapse is total, producing a rubble pile only about three stories high.
* The main structure collapses totally in under 7 seconds, only about a second slower than it would take a brick dropped from the building's roof to reach the ground in a vacuum.
*********************
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/wtc7/demolition.html
 
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