9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)

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Stryder

Keeper of "good" ideas.
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Since 9/11 Conspiracist's have been over killing the forum. I think it's fair time for all the threads to be merged into one all mighty tangle of posts disjointed by the fact that people seem to think that they can discuss the topic in different threads (That would be fine but all the conspiracies have the same arguments. They are indeed conspiracies)
 
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Physicist challenges official 9-11 story

I find the collapse rate issues fairly compelling.

#18 Physicist Challenges Official 9-11 Story
Sources:
Deseret Morning News, November 10, 2005
Title: “Y. Professor Thinks Bombs, Not Planes, Toppled WTC”
Author: Elaine Jarvik

Brigham Young University website, Winter 2005
Title: “Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?”
Author: Steven E. Jones

Deseret Morning News, January 26, 2006
Title: “BYU professor's group accuses U.S. officials of lying about 9/11”
Author: Elaine Jarvik

Faculty Evaluator: John Kramer
Student Researchers: David Abbott and Courtney Wilcox

Research into the events of September 11 by Brigham Young University physics professor, Steven E. Jones, concludes that the official explanation for the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) buildings is implausible according to laws of physics. Jones is calling for an independent, international scientific investigation “guided not by politicized notions and constraints but rather by observations and calculations.”

In debunking the official explanation of the collapse of the three WTC buildings, Jones cites the complete, rapid, and symmetrical collapse of the buildings; the horizontal explosions (squibs) evidenced in films of the collapses; the fact that the antenna dropped first in the North Tower, suggesting the use of explosives in the core columns; and the large pools of molten metal observed in the basement areas of both towers.

Jones also investigated the collapse of WTC 7, a forty-seven-story building that was not hit by planes, yet dropped in its own “footprint,” in the same manner as a controlled demolition. WTC 7 housed the U.S. Secret Service, the Department of Defense, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management, the Internal Revenue Service Regional Council, and the Central Intelligence Agency. Many of the records from the Enron accounting scandal were destroyed when the building came down.

Jones claims that the National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST) ignored the physics and chemistry of what happened on September 11 and even manipulated its testing in order to get a computer-generated hypothesis that fit the end result of collapse, and did not even attempt to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition. He also questions the investigations conducted by FEMA and the 9/11 Commission.

Among the report’s other findings:

No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns.
WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. “Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?” Jones asks. “That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors—and intact steel support columns—the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass.
How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?” The paradox, he says, “is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses.” These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST, or the 9/11 Commission.
With non-explosive-caused collapse there would typically be a piling up of shattered concrete. But most of the material in the towers was converted to flour-like powder while the buildings were falling. “How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives? Remarkable, amazing—and demanding scrutiny since the U.S. government-funded reports failed to analyze this phenomenon."
Steel supports were “partly evaporated,” but it would require temperatures near 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit to evaporate steel—and neither office materials nor diesel fuel can generate temperatures that hot. Fires caused by jet fuel from the hijacked planes lasted at most a few minutes, and office material fires would burn out within about twenty minutes in any given location.
Molten metal found in the debris of the WTC may have been the result of a high-temperature reaction of a commonly used explosive such as thermite. Buildings not felled by explosives “have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal,” Jones says.
Multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence were reported by numerous observers in and near the towers, and these explosions occurred far below the region where the planes struck.
In January 2006 Jones, along with a group calling themselves “Scholars for 9/11 Truth,” called for an international investigation into the attacks and are going so far as to accuse the U.S. government of a massive cover-up.
“We believe that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on September 11,” the group said in a statement. “We believe these events may have been orchestrated by the administration in order to manipulate the American people into supporting policies at home and abroad.”

The group is headed by Jones and Jim Fetzer, University of Minnesota Duluth distinguished McKnight professor of philosophy, and is made up of fifty academicians and experts including Robert M. Bowman, former director of the U.S. “Star Wars” space defense program, and Morgan Reynolds, former chief economist for the Department of Labor in President George W. Bush’s first term.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf
 
There's no new information here. Virtually all of this data has been available to professional scientists since 2001, and most of it even to laymen. Particularly the basic information about the manner in which the buildings collapsed, which is on video. For a group of scientists to pop out of the woodwork five years later and say, "Hey, we just got around to looking at this stuff and our little group has discovered that absolutely everybody else is wrong," is a little suspicious.

Steven E. Jones is a nuclear physicist who has spent his entire career studying something arcane about muon-based fusion. This subject is not exactly his specialty.

Google reveals a number of sources that raise issues about the expertise, motivation and methods of this group.

Considering the almost treasonous relationship between the Bush family and the House of Saud, plus the fact that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, plus the fact that Osama is a member by marriage of the House of Saud, plus the fact that Bush made an exception to the no-fly rule on 9/11 and allowed an entire planeload of Saudis to leave the USA, there is no shortage of leads for conspiracy theorists about 9/11. Yet in more than six years none of them has succeeded.
 
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Reasonably, though, if you were to attack a building; why would you not coordinate ground forces to topple it, after striking with a plane.

It is an attention getter, as the whole of the world watched.

I find it reasonable to believe it fallacy that someone could not have ensued in the chaos that followed with explosives. As, was the first attempt on the WTC, via truck bomb in 1993.
 
There are so many errors in that pdf paste that it is getting kind of embarrassing refuting them.
 
Reasonably, though, if you were to attack a building; why would you not coordinate ground forces to topple it, after striking with a plane.
Why go to all that trouble? They clearly had access to a wealth of information about the buildings and knew exactly where to hit them to make them fall. That was a rather narrow zone, due to the oddity of NYC outlawing asbestos halfway through construction of the buildings so the top half was not built the same way as the bottom half. The planes hit them perfectly. They didn't need extra help. This project was large enough. If they added additional personnel to it, especially operating within the U.S., it would have increased their chance of detection. That would have been unwise.
Are any of the scientists structural engineers that have designed skyscrapers?
I didn't find anyone with those credentials in my brief review of the organization. If they had a structural engineer it would give them a huge boost in credibility so you'd think his name would be prominently listed. The guy who seems to be in charge is a nuclear physicist!

This sounds like Nobel Prize-winning chemist Linus Pauling pontificating about the merits of Vitamin C back in the 1970s, something far outside his own field of expertise.
 
there is no shortage of leads for conspiracy theorists about 9/11. Yet in more than six years none of them has succeeded.

Success means a widespread acceptance. There are many reasons why this might not take place. How many people can really look at counterevidence objectively? The energy behind trying to find fault with anything running counter to the official story would be enormous.
 
Success means a widespread acceptance. There are many reasons why this might not take place. How many people can really look at counterevidence objectively? The energy behind trying to find fault with anything running counter to the official story would be enormous.
Americans love conspiracy theories and are generally skeptical and iconoclastic when it comes to "official stories." Look at the JFK shooting: a number of conspiracy theories are still in wide circulation and have considerable (if minority) respectable support. Absolutely none of the 9/11 conspiracy theories have achieved that level of legitimacy.

Look at the massive evolution denial movement!

If you can't get support for a kooky theory in America, it simply has to be poppycock.
 
Ground forces? Did you see ground forces? Did anyone see people wiring the building for detonation? Was thermite poured into the structure? No.



Want to try that sentence again, but this time paying attention to grammar, and semantics?

I don't get wrapped up in correct usage of keys I rap at, if I determine the conveyance of my thoughts are easily ascertained. I'll leave that to a linguist, whom I'm sure does indicate very precisely. I'm not working on a thesis here, just replying to a post.

Anyways, I'll reiterate. If you, yourself, were to attack an enemy. Would you not use various means? I don't see the impossibility of utilizing other means of attack than just the illustrious air planes. No one saw the first bombing attempt either, when the explosives were used. They did so in guise. So as to not be interrupted. And, I'm reasonably certain there was a detonation in 1993. Explosives are readily employed by terrorists when attacking solid structures. Has been for some time, still is.

Yes, I realize the way the 'light' was shown/seen: It was a grand performance. But, I don't realize why I should have "seen" enemy combatants prancing about in obvious fashion for all to gawk at, so that our forces might indicate against them.

You could almost reasonably assume they would have wanted to succeed. And, since most don't like their buildings blown up, they might have wanted to proceed without much scrutiny.

I can't/won't say if this took place. And never did. Just that I find it ridiculous that an enemy wanting to destroy a building would not do so.
 
sowhat said:
The energy behind trying to find fault with anything running counter to the official story would be enormous.
And part of that energy devoted to distracting people from the probable sources and evidence of real conspiracy and complicity, to spectacular but essentially nonsensical (and easily debunked, if they gain any actual traction) hypotheses would be clever, no?

If you want a conspiracy theory there are far better ones ready to hand here.

How many real inquiries into the many disturbing features and coincidences of 9/11 have been deflected by lumping them in with claims that the buildings were demolished by explosives, a missile hit the Pentagon, etc etc etc. ?

Briefly: the buildings did not fall as quickly as claimed by the demolition asserters, nor did they accellerate much in the last half of their collapses (the central problem is identifying the precise moment of initial drop - the first few feet take the most time - then consider that even large differences between free fall accelleration and the actual more constant speed during the final half would be masked by the short total time of that phase and the difficulty of identifying the exact moment of final impact).

The demolition theory is not necessary to explain side explosions, melted steel, etc - the heat and violence of air compression, impacts, and grinding concrete easily account for all that.

The alleged demolitions would have required accurate prediction of the impact point and attitude of the planes, and some kind of rigging that could be counted on to survive the impact and still function precisely and with utter reliability. You can't just set them off all at once, if they are to mimic sequential collapse they have to be started at exactly the right spot and timed to within a hundredth of a second.

And besides - why in hell would anyone bother? Why take such an enormous and unnecessary risk of screwup and discovery, when almost all the gain is assured simply by the plane impacts ? - if what happened to the Pennsylvania plane had happened to one of the Tower planes, all that demolition rigging would have been on the evening news.

Demolition's completely unnecessary and wildly unreasonable. But it has served very well to distract from evidence of complicity and hidden deals, in other aspects of the event.
 
*flame deleted*

Anyways, I'll reiterate. If you, yourself, were to attack an enemy. Would you not use various means?

Not if I were a terrorist, no. I'd keep the plan as simple as possible, with as few people involved as possible so as to avoid detection, and increase the likelyhood of my mission succeeding. If I failed, others could try a different approach, people I have never met, but share the same cause. You should look into the organisation of terror cells, like the triads, you know a guy that knows a guy, but you all don't know each other, that way should one person get captured, the amount they can reveal about the organisation as a whole is limited. This means also that their capacity to act is limited, but also effective if the plan is simple.
 
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That's sloppy, and thoughtless. If you can't be bothered to put over your thoughts clearly and concisely, and so they are easily understood, you can't think much of your own thoughts. Not all users of SciForums have English as a first language, but they take time to use correct grammar and spelling, and to make yourself understood to them, you should do the same.

Jeesh, flip the ATTACK-MODE off. I've reviewed my original post, and although somewhat terse for the areas it conveyed, it was simple to understand, in my opinion.

I seldom engross the engagement of the act of, when no correction is made. Only negative input...

I'll state this, for the flow of conversation: Spurts of conflict do little to imply someone is either/nor smart. Just creates friction. If you can't take the time to state what is wrong, and why...why waste my time...
 
Not if I were a terrorist, no. I'd keep the plan as simple as possible, with as few people involved as possible so as to avoid detection, and increase the likelyhood of my mission succeeding. If I failed, others could try a different approach, people I have never met, but share the same cause. You should look into the organisation of terror cells, like the triads, you know a guy that knows a guy, but you all don't know each other, that way should one person get captured, the amount they can reveal about the organisation as a whole is limited. This means also that their capacity to act is limited, but also effective if the plan is simple.

Most Military Strategist have what some call 'plans of succession'.
It's like bombing a site, and then striking it again with another salvo. To ensure the target's elimination. Often, there are other methods to be employed should the original plan fail.

Many have back up plans when they do something. Anyone attacking something as large as the WTC that wanted to destroy it would be somewhat likely to use explosives. Since, it was very discouraging for the terrorists in 1993 when they failed with the truck bomb, they would probably not want a repeat of the same thing.
 
Since, it was very discouraging for the terrorists in 1993 when they failed with the truck bomb, they would probably not want a repeat of the same thing.

If your 'plan b' claim is true, why didn't the truck bombers finish the job off with some jet airplanes, just to make sure, huh?

Or is it as I said, they tried a simple plan, failed, and then others tried something else?
 
Look I don't know about WTC 1 and 2, but building 7 was DEMO'd. Anyone with fucking eyeballs that work properly can see that. It casts doubt on the whole official story.
 
fraggle said:
I agree that it's a little confusing and could have been worded more simply, but there are no grammatical or syntactical errors in it.
So he meant to say that the chaos followed with explosives, and in that chaos people ensued ?

neitzschefan said:
Look I don't know about WTC 1 and 2, but building 7 was DEMO'd. Anyone with fucking eyeballs that work properly can see that. It casts doubt on the whole official story.
My eyeblls showed me nothing unexpected that required demolition. That there were things in the building rigged to be blown up for some reason is an outside possibility. The hypothesis of planned demolition coordinated with the suicide strike distracts from far more likely problems with the official story, IMHO.
 
Most definitions of "terrorism" accentuate the distinction between acts of terrorism and acts of war. Terrorist organizations are characterized by a tenuous chain of command and constrained financing. They cannot be expected to have the resources to mount an attack of true military scope.

I'm aware that they are not a recognized, trained military body. Not by any country. I'm simply pointing to the fact that terrorists have used explosives often, in many acts. Especially against buildings. And, why so many think it implausible is just an act of diminishing a threat. Easier to stomach, I guess.

I'll state I don't know. They probably wouldn't tell you, if they knew. But, since explosives are often used to demolish structures, I see know reason why they couldn't be in this instance. I'm not fond of convenience. This laissez-faire attitude is one, in my opinion, of where someone else will maintain the order, and you may freely go about your business.
 
I could swear that I remember statements on that date that building 7 was deliberately demolished. I cannot see how it is physically possible for that building to have fallen into its own footprint the way that it obviously did without someone having spent a lot of hours installing the explosives the way that they need to be installed. To have three buildings collapse as neatly as they did in one day seems incredibly unlikely. Of course, a lot of the people who talk about it would rather have me believe the physically impossible because of course Bush "would never do that." But he continues close business ties with people who he knows financed it and wastes thousands of American lives attacking a country that he knows very well didn't do it. On what basis do I place hypothetical limits on Bush's behavior?
 
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