6 year old hand cuffed
- Thread starter sifreak21
- Start date
You know we handcuff everyone they put in a police car, including psycotic people, one's on PCP etc, and that's got to be millions of people per year who are handcuffed and I can't recall a big hue and cry that handcuffs are harmful or create injury.
From what I can tell, they didn't in this case either.
This Is What They Want
I think, ultimately, we have to recognize that this is what Georgians want of their schools. Or, at least, this is what folks in Baldwin County, Georgia, want.
This is what they think of their children.
This is how they want their schools run.
Absent from any press I've encountered is the suggestion that there was a certified counselor for the students, either in general or specifically on this day. I actually had this discussion last night with my mother, of all people, who pointed out, "You had counselors. We talked to them." And, naturally, I responded, "Yes, but that was junior high." And she said, "Oh."
The idea of a counselor in an elementary school is, I admit, new to me as of my daughter's entry to the school system. However, as I watch the budget wrangling going on, including the proposed relocation and consolidation of the program I work with to another school, in another city, fifteen miles away, I do know that the one thing they're not going to do is get rid of the counselor.
In Georgia, as with many states including my own, "Property taxes make up the primary source of revenue for local school systems" (GSBA).
If locals do not want to pay more in property taxes, they vote against the increases. This constrains school funding.
Whatever the Milledgeville school's problem is—a lack of on-site counseling services, undertrained teachers, &c.—it can also be tracked back to the budget. And much of that budget is in the hands of Baldwin County voters. How much varies from state to state, of course, but in Washington state, for comparison, we get school funding issues, including property taxes, in county ballots.
So at some point, we have to acknowledge that whatever problems the school in Milledgeville has that renders them completely incapable of dealing with a child in serious emotional distress, so that they must call the police to have a six year-old cuffed and removed from the site, a good deal of that comes back to the citizens of Baldwin County who vote.
____________________
Notes:
Georgia School Boards Association. Funding Georgia's Public Schools: An Overview. (n.d.) GSBA.com. April 20, 2012. http://www.gsba.com/downloads/fundinggapublicschools_talking_points.pdf
I think, ultimately, we have to recognize that this is what Georgians want of their schools. Or, at least, this is what folks in Baldwin County, Georgia, want.
This is what they think of their children.
This is how they want their schools run.
Absent from any press I've encountered is the suggestion that there was a certified counselor for the students, either in general or specifically on this day. I actually had this discussion last night with my mother, of all people, who pointed out, "You had counselors. We talked to them." And, naturally, I responded, "Yes, but that was junior high." And she said, "Oh."
The idea of a counselor in an elementary school is, I admit, new to me as of my daughter's entry to the school system. However, as I watch the budget wrangling going on, including the proposed relocation and consolidation of the program I work with to another school, in another city, fifteen miles away, I do know that the one thing they're not going to do is get rid of the counselor.
In Georgia, as with many states including my own, "Property taxes make up the primary source of revenue for local school systems" (GSBA).
If locals do not want to pay more in property taxes, they vote against the increases. This constrains school funding.
Whatever the Milledgeville school's problem is—a lack of on-site counseling services, undertrained teachers, &c.—it can also be tracked back to the budget. And much of that budget is in the hands of Baldwin County voters. How much varies from state to state, of course, but in Washington state, for comparison, we get school funding issues, including property taxes, in county ballots.
So at some point, we have to acknowledge that whatever problems the school in Milledgeville has that renders them completely incapable of dealing with a child in serious emotional distress, so that they must call the police to have a six year-old cuffed and removed from the site, a good deal of that comes back to the citizens of Baldwin County who vote.
____________________
Notes:
Georgia School Boards Association. Funding Georgia's Public Schools: An Overview. (n.d.) GSBA.com. April 20, 2012. http://www.gsba.com/downloads/fundinggapublicschools_talking_points.pdf
In America a US TSA agent patrolling the parking lot (you need to show ID to enter a food-aquisition zone) would have simply followed standard Childcare procedure: pepper spray to the nose and throat to subdue and disorient, this has the added benefit of sealing shut the vocal centers (so others can enjoy their shopping experience) all of which is followed with a tazer to the head - the child is cuffed, given a soothing glass of concentrated SSRI-Ritalin and karted off to Gtimo for Terrorist processing.
:shrug:
I thought that's what they did everywhere in the world??? I guess that's why we're the best over here in the land of Liberty
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ON a side note, anyone know if "temper tantrums" occur in all cultures? Do African children playing outside around the village have them? Is it more a reaction to being forced to do something you don't really want to do? Are there better ways of teaching children?
In the video (Bells posted) the child wanted lollies. But, why did they know lollies were something they wanted? Eye level marketing? Parents who'd stuff one in their mouths when they asked one too many "Why....." questions (here Bobby, instead of being inquisitorial all day and bothering Daddy, try this! *brain shuts down as dopa flood in from candy-goodness). Now a days even 2 year olds are being prescribed various psychotropic drugs. This story is more about Western culture (yes, it's in AU and ENG as well) than just some child being subjected to life in Disfunction America.
In the video next to the one linked. One child has a tantrum. Her house has one of those abhorrent "playpens" and lots of stuff mom can give kids so she doesn't have to bother with them. I personally think parking children in front of a TV is not a good parenting strategy. It's like the kid pops out of the matrix, screams and crys to get free, and is forcefully jackbooted back in.....
That aside, aside, I got to thinking about child care. Most beliefs are socialized, not rationalized, into becoming a core belief. We're socialized into most of our beliefs. Like language, or spanking -vs- non-aggressive parenting, or fiat currency and income tax -vs- money, etc.....
We grow up believing whatever we're socialized to believe.
One thing I find interesting, about the human condition, is that we can (kind of... a little) challenge social constructs when it comes to Parenting. We have an ability to breakthrough some socialized constructs when it comes to parenting. Especially the mother. At least I think so? If you think it's hard to convince someone spanking is immoral, try income tax
In the video (Bells posted) the child wanted lollies. But, why did they know lollies were something they wanted? Eye level marketing? Parents who'd stuff one in their mouths when they asked one too many "Why....." questions (here Bobby, instead of being inquisitorial all day and bothering Daddy, try this! *brain shuts down as dopa flood in from candy-goodness). Now a days even 2 year olds are being prescribed various psychotropic drugs. This story is more about Western culture (yes, it's in AU and ENG as well) than just some child being subjected to life in Disfunction America.
In the video next to the one linked. One child has a tantrum. Her house has one of those abhorrent "playpens" and lots of stuff mom can give kids so she doesn't have to bother with them. I personally think parking children in front of a TV is not a good parenting strategy. It's like the kid pops out of the matrix, screams and crys to get free, and is forcefully jackbooted back in.....
That aside, aside, I got to thinking about child care. Most beliefs are socialized, not rationalized, into becoming a core belief. We're socialized into most of our beliefs. Like language, or spanking -vs- non-aggressive parenting, or fiat currency and income tax -vs- money, etc.....
We grow up believing whatever we're socialized to believe.
One thing I find interesting, about the human condition, is that we can (kind of... a little) challenge social constructs when it comes to Parenting. We have an ability to breakthrough some socialized constructs when it comes to parenting. Especially the mother. At least I think so? If you think it's hard to convince someone spanking is immoral, try income tax
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Bells
Staff member
There is no palm, or face, big enough for this face palm...
What do you think happens when a child has a full blown temper tantrum? They lash out at anyone around them. That is what they do. And do you know why?
Because they are children...
Control is not something they actually have when they are in the midst of a temper tantrum and the greater majority just need a calm voice, talked down from it and given something to eat and a drink and a cuddle, because some become very upset about it afterwards. Others just need to be left to let it all out. And do you know why?
Because they are children...
Carrying on because she pushed a small shelf over and it hit the principal.. Good grief.. The horror..
It would be better if people stopped expecting children to act like adults and adults stopped treating children like they are mentally ill if they do something normal, like have a temper tantrum. Because from where I am sitting, it is bad enough that teachers, people supposedly trained to care for and educate children, are unable to deal with a temper tantrum in a 6 year old, but it is worse that the police were called and they, frigging police officers, saw fit to handcuff a 6 year old who was having a tantrum and put her in the back of a squad car and take her to a police station.
It is a 6 year old, having a tantrum. Not a man on a bell tower with a machine gun.
It is unbelievable that we are even having this discussion.
Bells
Staff member
Yes, they do. Temper tantrums is actually normal for children... It's how children cope with certain things like stress, anger, fear, hunger, thirst, boredom, lack of attention, over-stimulation, etc.. It is a form of release and afterwards, they are back to normal.
I was in town at a chinese restaurant a few months ago and a bus with chinese tourists arrived and one of them had a little girl, about 5 or so and this kid popped a tantrum as they were waiting to be seated. Was, well, spectacular. Tipped chairs over in the waiting area, waved her arms about, tried to rip out the pot plants. Her parents just picked her up as she was screaming and kicking and took her outside and talked her down while another person rushed a spring roll over to her, which she ate and she calmed down right away. She was probably hungry and tired. After that, she came in and ate lunch and went on her merry way back to the tour bus. I have seen kids from all sides of the world here throw tantrums.
It's normal behaviour. I would imagine few never have one and the greater majority throw one at least once in their life time. To have people carry on as if she has a mental illness is ridiculous.
I don't know.
I have noticed with my two that whenever they have thrown a tantrum, they hadn't eaten enouth or they were way over stimulated with what was going on around them - best place to see tantrums is the Shows each state has in Australia, like the Melbourne Show, etc. But tantrums is just a way that children cope with what's going on around them. They actually cannot help it or stop it or control themselves.
Which is insane.
Pardon the pun.
Their brains are still developing and I would imagine doping them up with drugs could affect how their brain develops, wouldn't it?
Probably, but here at least, if a teacher or principal called the police because a 6 year old threw a temper tantrum, they would probably be charged with wasting police time or fired for being an idiot.
Bells,
I agree completely.
From post #65, I was watching a few more videos (parents seem to love videoing their children's tantrums and posting them on Youtube?) and I do sometimes wonder if there isn't something more. A playpen in the side of a livingroom (well out of parent-TV-viewing-time) a child crying because camping is over (perhaps as well as fulltime with both parents?).
I just can't help wondering how many tantrums are indeed, as you yourself know - from exhaustion and hunger and overstimulation. And how many are from not getting enough good quality time with parents? Australia, as I seem to recall, will take babies into day-supervision facilities at something like 6 MONTHS!?!?
Not a good sign at all.
Lastly, I seem to remember a series of spanking threads - you use non-aggressive parenting right? Imagine the frustration at trying to convince a parent that spanking is immoral. Actually immoral. Now try that with income tax.... whoa.... nearly impossible
I agree completely.
From post #65, I was watching a few more videos (parents seem to love videoing their children's tantrums and posting them on Youtube?) and I do sometimes wonder if there isn't something more. A playpen in the side of a livingroom (well out of parent-TV-viewing-time) a child crying because camping is over (perhaps as well as fulltime with both parents?).
I just can't help wondering how many tantrums are indeed, as you yourself know - from exhaustion and hunger and overstimulation. And how many are from not getting enough good quality time with parents? Australia, as I seem to recall, will take babies into day-supervision facilities at something like 6 MONTHS!?!?
Not a good sign at all.
Lastly, I seem to remember a series of spanking threads - you use non-aggressive parenting right? Imagine the frustration at trying to convince a parent that spanking is immoral. Actually immoral. Now try that with income tax.... whoa.... nearly impossible
Firstly talk about off topic, pushing your idiocy about tax in a thread about apropriate childcare
secondly it's nice to be rich isn't it? The reason kids are going into childcare early is because parents can't AFORD to live on one income anymore, not so they can watch tv you condescending prick. This is what your god "free market" leads to, the working poor who bust there asses everyday just to keep there head above water while people like James packer, twiggy forest and the rest sit on there ass and complain about the fact that society expects them to contribute
Thirdly this IS a US problem, not an Australian or UK problem just like the fact that schools in the US have metal detectors, security guards and arest students for thinks like smoking. Unless you can provide some evidence that shows this kind of behaviour in either of those countries you can stop passing your idiocy off on us. As bells had said multiple times a teacher who called the cops or ambos to deal with a temper tantrum would be fired for incopitance AND charged with wasting police time
And now for fun, what would you do for THIS tantrum
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0099196611
secondly it's nice to be rich isn't it? The reason kids are going into childcare early is because parents can't AFORD to live on one income anymore, not so they can watch tv you condescending prick. This is what your god "free market" leads to, the working poor who bust there asses everyday just to keep there head above water while people like James packer, twiggy forest and the rest sit on there ass and complain about the fact that society expects them to contribute
Thirdly this IS a US problem, not an Australian or UK problem just like the fact that schools in the US have metal detectors, security guards and arest students for thinks like smoking. Unless you can provide some evidence that shows this kind of behaviour in either of those countries you can stop passing your idiocy off on us. As bells had said multiple times a teacher who called the cops or ambos to deal with a temper tantrum would be fired for incopitance AND charged with wasting police time
And now for fun, what would you do for THIS tantrum
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0099196611
I find it ridiculous, and scary, how childhood is now being recast as either a medical or criminal issue or both.
Children are...wait for it...CHILDREN! Y'know when I was a kid if I had a temper tantrum I was simply taken out of the room to calm down. None of this dysfunctional new world bulldiarrhea.
Children are...wait for it...CHILDREN! Y'know when I was a kid if I had a temper tantrum I was simply taken out of the room to calm down. None of this dysfunctional new world bulldiarrhea.
There is no palm, or face, big enough for this face palm...
What do you think happens when a child has a full blown temper tantrum? They lash out at anyone around them. That is what they do. And do you know why?
Because they are children...
Control is not something they actually have when they are in the midst of a temper tantrum and the greater majority just need a calm voice, talked down from it and given something to eat and a drink and a cuddle, because some become very upset about it afterwards. Others just need to be left to let it all out. And do you know why?
Because they are children...
Carrying on because she pushed a small shelf over and it hit the principal.. Good grief.. The horror..
It would be better if people stopped expecting children to act like adults and adults stopped treating children like they are mentally ill if they do something normal, like have a temper tantrum. Because from where I am sitting, it is bad enough that teachers, people supposedly trained to care for and educate children, are unable to deal with a temper tantrum in a 6 year old, but it is worse that the police were called and they, frigging police officers, saw fit to handcuff a 6 year old who was having a tantrum and put her in the back of a squad car and take her to a police station.
It is a 6 year old, having a tantrum. Not a man on a bell tower with a machine gun.
It is unbelievable that we are even having this discussion.
Yes, I know that the idea of a child having boundaries is positively absurd to you, because apparently in Australia (or wherever you're from) children are free-range animals. Isn't it just too bad that the rest of us aren't as progressive?
Also not worth discussing are the mitigating circumstances which might make handling a child having such a fit very difficult, apparently. After all, it was nothing more than a shelf-smashing, poster-tearing "temper tantrum" from a healthy six-year-old in a country where so much as raising your voice at a child can bring about news cameras and threats of litigation.
Since you don't seem to be willing to recognize the fact that I did not condone the actions of the police officer, and did admit that there are clearly larger issues at play here which need to be addressed, I'll reiterate: This was handled poorly, across the board. The principal's first concern should probably not be where their next lawsuit is coming from, which means there shouldn't have been the need to call the police; the police officer should never have gotten handcuffs anywhere near the child, nor should he have removed her from the premises. But to simply brush it off as "just a temper tantrum" is to overlook the severity of the fit as well as the potential issues that shaped the way the situation was handled. Unfortunately, it is not so simple as "Ah, it's just a kid, no worries."
You mean child-supervision. NO one can care for a child like a parent. It's not possible. Putting 6 month olds in day-supervision is immoral IMPO. But, I do leave that up to the parent. As for the income tax reference. It is connected as you make clear in your second point, but you also make clear that you have no idea WHY both parents are working.
It's because it takes boths parents working to pay for the size and wasted resources that is big government. Gulia Jil-tard makes twice as much in pay as Obama
I seem to recall Australians will be paying carbon-tax that aside from increasing overall atmospheric CO2 is going to increase the cost of living for most ordinary Australians. I also seem to recall how happy Australians were when they received their $1000 rebate to "stimulate" a bloated housing market. We don't live in a Free-Market Asguard. We live in YOUR socialist paradise.
You're so dense you don't even realize YOU got YOUR wish - State run socialism and that sort of BIG government and waste is going to require both parents to work.
So, YOU have no leg to stand on. We have your cherished Income Tax. We have you cherished Central Bank. We have your cherished BIG BLOATED wasteful government.
Don't worry Asguard, life in Australia mirrors that of life in America. When my grandfather was growing up there was no gangs or gun violence. That just started as my father was growing up. It's the norm now.
There's places in Sydney where you, being white, will be shot. In the past I've had knives pointed at my face in Sydney and told to give over my wallet. That time I got lucky as I stood my ground and they bolted. Another time I was pushed to the ground, my girl-friend pushed and her purse taken while I was kicked.
So, be happy, we're living in YOUR income-tax fueled Central bank corrupted immoral society. DO you understand that? We do not live in a free-market capitalistic society. If we did life would be much much more prosperous. Soon you'll probably have to pay a tax to the Australian Internet Patrol because, you know, one time, there was this Chinese somewhere who sold his kidney and and and and we need about $50 million a year to make sure that doesn't happen here in the Land of the Lucky - oh, that'll mean you and your wife and everyone's kids will have to work.
So, lets make this clear - I'm NOT saying parents are putting their kids in day-supervision to watch TV. I did say some parents with PLAYPENS do. Why else do they have a playpen OUT OF the way of the TV? I recall a family who had a playpen INFRONT of their TV. It was for napping baby when mom was putting up laundry outside. This was a playpen in the far end of the living-room.
As for BOTH parents working, well, maybe you should try to understand economy a little better. You want big government, lots of social programs, and a broad multi-generational social safetynet- that means both parents work and will work long hard hours. It also means you will import a LOT of labor and this labor will, in time, displace you.
Welcome to Socialism 101.
Just look at everything you hate about the USA and plan on seeing that in Australia - then look in the mirror.
America is as far from a free-market as you could get. Fascist? Yes. Free-Market? Nope.
As for Child parenting. I am being consistent the philosophical reasoned position that initiation of force is immoral and as such you reason with children and do not spank them.
Bells
Staff member
Bells,
I agree completely.
From post #65, I was watching a few more videos (parents seem to love videoing their children's tantrums and posting them on Youtube?) and I do sometimes wonder if there isn't something more. A playpen in the side of a livingroom (well out of parent-TV-viewing-time) a child crying because camping is over (perhaps as well as fulltime with both parents?).
I just can't help wondering how many tantrums are indeed, as you yourself know - from exhaustion and hunger and overstimulation. And how many are from not getting enough good quality time with parents? Australia, as I seem to recall, will take babies into day-supervision facilities at something like 6 MONTHS!?!?
Not a good sign at all.
Lastly, I seem to remember a series of spanking threads - you use non-aggressive parenting right? Imagine the frustration at trying to convince a parent that spanking is immoral. Actually immoral. Now try that with income tax.... whoa.... nearly impossible
I don't try and convince other parents on how to raise their children. Except for the ones who sexually abused or molested their children of course, that's a whole different story and that was a part of my job to make sure they never had contact with their children again.
But normal parents will do what is right for their children. I had adopted a non-aggressive parenting role as my son's parent. Does it always work? No. Just as spanking does not always work. The thing is to deal with each situation as it arises. What I do know is that spanking a child in the middle of a temper tantrum or handcuffing them and putting them in the back of a squad car and taken to the police station is ridiculous overkill.
Can you imagine if a teacher or principal in Australia called the police because a 6 year old child threw a tantrum in class and the police then handcuffed that child and took them to the police station in the back of a squad car? Those officers would be investigated and possibly fired for being morons and the teachers/principals involved would probably be suspended and investigated.
I would say that tantrums and parental interaction are most probably connected. I know when my children have just been with their dad, they tend to be very sad and that is when they would throw their tantrums, something they had rarely done before. So what is going on in their lives is definitely connected to how children release that fear, anger, stress in tantrums. It is how children release and show they are upset and stressed about something and other times, if they are hungry, thirsty and can't exactly cope with what is going on around them. It is normal behaviour.
It is unfortunate that some parents are forced to put their babies into child-care because they simply have no other choice. Thankfully day care center staff here in Australia would never call the police if a child threw a tantrum...
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Beg your pardon?JDawg said:
My children have boundaries and their teachers are trained and would never call the police if a child threw a tantrum in class and the police here in Australia would not handcuff a 6 year old child because she threw a tantrum and take her to the police station because of said temper tantrum. Hell, that's not even in police training but just common sense. Strange concept, I know, but you can look it up.
How sad for you that you come from such a society where police officers are called in to handcuff children who have a simple temper tantrum. I guess it would explain your attitude and aggressive nature.:shrug:
A temper tantrum is now a medical condition such as a fit?
Right....
If teachers are not able to deal with small children having a temper tantrum, they have no place in that classroom and have no place trying to teach children.
Hell, from what I understand, some teachers in your country were failing basic literacy tests, so I guess we can just shrug and not have much high expectations...
Maybe they should just have sent her to a hospital, maybe a padded room, for a temper tantrum?
You forget, the teachers are the professionals here and if as supposed professionals they can't handle a temper tantrum, they have no place being in that classroom or anywhere near children in a professional capacity.
Pilate Training
I would only disagree because I think you have the factors in the wrong order.
Our collective American belligerence is a product of many factors, and one of the results, or, perhaps, symptoms, is a notion of "efficiency" that looks more toward the effort expended instead of progress made. And, yes, that does apply, perversely—you know how often I sling around the implications of cultural neurotic complexes—to some of our really complicated endeavors, including wars.
In the case of the schools, "streamlining" processes often renders the proposition of nuance irrelevant. What appears to have happened in Georgia, as with other strange incidents noted in this thread, is that the teachers and staff of these schools have done the simplest, most expedient thing possible, which is to call the police and get the complicated, oft-nuanced task of dealing with an angry or otherwise misbehaving child pushed onto the next person. It's sort of a way of playing Pilate.
The more complicated process, as such, would be having teachers and administrators who are reasonably prepared to deal with children.
I know, I know. It sounds almost stupid, but you have to remember that we're a large country with diverse standards, and if you look at it in terms of infrastructure, we have a long and difficult task ahead of us.
Bells said:
I would only disagree because I think you have the factors in the wrong order.
Our collective American belligerence is a product of many factors, and one of the results, or, perhaps, symptoms, is a notion of "efficiency" that looks more toward the effort expended instead of progress made. And, yes, that does apply, perversely—you know how often I sling around the implications of cultural neurotic complexes—to some of our really complicated endeavors, including wars.
In the case of the schools, "streamlining" processes often renders the proposition of nuance irrelevant. What appears to have happened in Georgia, as with other strange incidents noted in this thread, is that the teachers and staff of these schools have done the simplest, most expedient thing possible, which is to call the police and get the complicated, oft-nuanced task of dealing with an angry or otherwise misbehaving child pushed onto the next person. It's sort of a way of playing Pilate.
The more complicated process, as such, would be having teachers and administrators who are reasonably prepared to deal with children.
I know, I know. It sounds almost stupid, but you have to remember that we're a large country with diverse standards, and if you look at it in terms of infrastructure, we have a long and difficult task ahead of us.
I don't see how calling the police "steamlined" the process? If anything the opposite. If they would have dealt with the 6 year old child calmly she would have settled down and been fine. It might also be worth speaking to her to discover if anything set her off? Maybe she has a very unhealthy home life? Or maybe she was hungry? Is her father part of her life? Probably not.
It took the whole countries attention including the president in order to get these idiots in Florida to make that arrest. Now this obviously guilty murderer is out again.
It kind of reminds me of the time when as a paramedic I responded to a call, the patient had six bullet holes in his chest, dead and handcuffed.
I would have said the same thing about the United States prior to this event, so be careful of making such definitive proclamations.
Yes, because I'd much rather come from a society that does shit like this to its kids.
And who are you talk about attitudes and aggressive nature? Every other word out of your mouth is an insult or condescension.
Temper tantrums absolutely can be indicators of an underlying mental condition, yes, and I think the violent nature of this particular tantrum qualifies it as a fit.
That's a bit unfair, since most parents have a very hard time dealing with their own child's tantrums. Do they then have no place trying to raise children? Or was this just another example of you making a definitive statement in lieu of presenting a reasoned argument?
Yeah, because Australia's so much better.
I was not advocating either solution, but surely an ambulance ride and a hospital bed would have been better than handcuffs, the backseat of a cop car, and a police station interrogation room? As to the padded cell, I was simply replying to another poster's assertion that police stations had rooms where people could not hurt themselves. You would have known that if you hadn't taken my comment out of context.
I don't disagree that this situation was handled poorly. However, I don't simply pretend there aren't mitigating factors out of fear that I might have to come down off my soap box. But then, that's the difference between someone looking to have a conversation, and someone who just wants to yell their ideas at people.
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