Zionist piracy

[spidergoat]

Shallower waters often have higher waves. The ocean is still the ocean. It's far more preferable to kill a few troublemakers than to give everyone on board a death sentence regardless of their actions.


Meanwhile:
While No One's Looking, the Palestinians Are Building a State

 

[Billy T]

Shallower waters often have higher waves. The ocean is still the ocean. It's far more preferable to kill a few troublemakers than to give everyone on board a death sentence regardless of their actions. ...

Why would a boat with a broken rudder now under Israeli tow be a death sentence for all on board? Ships with broken rudders are often towed much greater distances. Do you think Israel will kill them when they reach land?

USNS Apache is one of Military Sealift Command's four Fleet Ocean Tugs providing towing, diving platform and other services to the Navy's numbered fleets and is part of the 41 ships in the Naval Fleet Auxiliary Force.

• Length: 226 feet
• Beam: 42 feet
• Draft: 15 feet
• Displacement: 2,260 long tons
• Speed: 15.0 knots
• Civilian: 16 civil service mariners

 

[spidergoat]

Towing such ships is easier said than done.

 

[ElectricFetus]

functionally the Israeli navy is more of a coast guard than a blue water navy. out side of the dolphin and Saar 4,4.5, and 5 it has nothing that could truly function as a blue water navy vessel except maybe as a really small escort vessel. the US coast guard operates armed ships far larger than the Israeli corvettes.

So?, its still a misnomer.

Nonsense! Israel could have disabled (and only disabled) the ship with technology that is older than Israel!

“ In 1941, Italian frogmen disabled two of the most powerful ships in the British Fleet by navigating the torpedoes through mine fields outside Alexandria harbour in Egypt.” [/url]

1. The ships were stationary when attacked.
2. By disable they mean sunk, as explosives were attached to the haul of the ship!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Alexandria_(1941)

The other four torpedo-riders were also captured, inland, by the Egyptian police and handed over to the British,[6] but not before their mines sank the battleships HMS Valiant and Queen Elizabeth.[7] The 7,750-ton Norwegian tanker Sagona lost her stern section and the destroyer HMS Jervis was badly damaged. Although the two capital ships sank only in a few feet of water and were eventually raised, they were out of action for over one year.

The frogmen would not even need explosives - just ram their torpedo into the prop or rudder, but much cheaper to sick a small magnetic charge on the rudder with 5 minute fuse for them to get clear.

Even without explosives a direct impact of the propeller could cause extensive damage, and again these ships are not stationary they are in motion so sticking a charge on the rudder is going to require some innovation.

In WWII torpedoes chasing a ship often disabled it in the stern - Then it was "sitting duck" for surface warship to sink later.

Acoustic homing torpedoes have been used for decades and usually take out the prop and or rudder.

Again these do more then simply take out the prop and rudder, they explode and damage the whole stern, what we need is a weapon the will insure no damage to the haul and no leaks what so ever! The activist will be inclined to exaggerate any damage as an attempt to sink the ship if not even letting the ship sink to blame Israel, so the damage has to be surgically precise, like cutting the propeller shafts, fowling the props or disabling the rodder. This is a new technology. You need to understand that implementing ideas even ideas that are only minor changes from previous ideas requires a lot of work, testing and validating.

 

[spidergoat]

Damaging the ship is the same as an attempt to sink it. Ships need steerageway in order to maintain proper orientation to waves and to keep away from shoals.

 

[Billy T]

Towing such ships is easier said than done.

It is routine. Either one in photos of post 1582 can tow an aircraft carrier, but two would be quicker if it is crossing the Pacific.

 

[spidergoat]

In ideal conditions, with the cooperation of the ship's captain, so the ship would have to be boarded and seized anyway.

 

[Billy T]

To Electric Fetus:

I was not suggesting that Israel use the 1930's manned sub/torpedoes to disable - only responding to your statement that new technology and years of development would be needed.

I think the simplest approach that could be used would be to have a surface warship steam along side but not too far from the ship it wants to disable and tow behind itself one of the "under water kites" that are used in pairs to spread fishing nets sideways behind a fishing trawler. It should be relatively easy to get the kite's tow cable tangled in the prop, and then cut it free to let the target ship's drive shaft wind in the small bomb attached. I am not an expert but that should work. Quite possibly just the tangled cable would do if it is strong.

This is not a "go-to-the-moon" complex project. I recall a few years ago a fishing trawler caught a US sub in its net and disabled it for some days!

 

[spidergoat]

This is getting seriously Wile E. Coyote. All to spare the lives of people that wanted to be martyrs anyway.

 

[Billy T]

In ideal conditions, with the cooperation of the ship's captain, so the ship would have to be boarded and seized anyway.

Yes you first ask, in daylight, for permission. If not grated then disable the ship. Then they will assist with the tow connection.* If still not, then you send in your commandos, waiting for 4:30 AM if you think you need to. Israel started with the final stage.

* All ships have such a tow connection points or you could just attach the tow cable to the anchor cable.

 

[Billy T]

This is getting seriously Wile E. Coyote. All to spare the lives of people that wanted to be martyrs anyway.

Perhaps, but my posts have just been correcting nonsense and false statements.

The Israeli Navy can disable a civilian ship and then tow it to port - to state they can't is nonsense and false.

 

[spidergoat]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but Israel rejected that option for sound nautical reasons.

 

[Billy T]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but Israel rejected that option for sound nautical reasons.

Such as?

 

[spidergoat]

Between the time the ship is rendered a floating hulk and the time you can affix the tow ropes, the crew is helpless and in mortal peril.

 

[Billy T]

Between the time the ship is rendered a floating hulk and the time you can affix the tow ropes, the crew is helpless and in mortal peril.

Not from the sea - the Israelis perhaps. Ships do lose power and survive.

My father in law was chief engineer for a Norwegian shipping firm. - He got to the USA several times each year to help get a disabled ship get restored.

Once I was in the Brooklyn yard and saw the enormous diesel piston that had been repaired. The ship had been towed to Panama. That ship out of service was costing his company a huge sum. (I forget exactly how much but many thousand of dollars each hour) He chartered a plane to fly the piston back to the ship. (I think another had been chartered to fly it to the Brooklyn repair yard.)

You do not know what you are talking about. Unless a great storm or near rocks a powerless ship will survive in deep water.

PS - I'm still waiting for your reply to Post 1593's "Such as?"

 

[ElectricFetus]

I think the simplest approach that could be used would be to have a surface warship steam along side but not too far from the ship it wants to disable and tow behind itself one of the "under water kites" that are used in pairs to spread fishing nets sideways behind a fishing trawler. It should be relatively easy to get the kite's tow cable tangled in the prop, and then cut it free to let the target ship's drive shaft wind in the small bomb attached. I am not an expert but that should work. Quite possibly just the tangled cable would do if it is strong.

I think I proposed something very similar, it would still need to be tested, in a rush and if it works it could be validated in a few weeks, it could be countered with props behind metal frames though.

In ideal conditions, with the cooperation of the ship's captain, so the ship would have to be boarded and seized anyway.

That again requires some nifty innovation and skill to be able to weld or clamp on tow ropes and tow the boat in nary the conditions.

 

[noodler]

Q: Why does Israel need to have enemies?
A: Because it would have nothing worth fighting for if it didn't. Religion doesn't mean much to people when they aren't surrounded by enemies on all sides.

 

[spidergoat]

I think I proposed something very similar, it would still need to be tested, in a rush and if it works it could be validated in a few weeks, it could be countered with props behind metal frames though.



That again requires some nifty innovation and skill to be able to weld or clamp on tow ropes and tow the boat in nary the conditions.

Has this ever been done before? And in any case, the crew would have to be subdued once the ship reached Israel.

Not from the sea - the Israelis perhaps. Ships do lose power and survive.

My father in law was chief engineer for a Norwegian shipping firm. - He got to the USA several times each year to help get a disabled ship get restored.

Once I was in the Brooklyn yard and saw the enormous diesel piston that had been repaired. The ship had been towed to Panama. That ship out of service was costing his company a huge sum. (I forget exactly how much but many thousand of dollars each hour) He chartered a plane to fly the piston back to the ship. (I think another had been chartered to fly it to the Brooklyn repair yard.)

You do not know what you are talking about. Unless a great storm or near rocks a powerless ship will survive in deep water.

PS - I'm still waiting for your reply to Post 1593's "Such as?"

Of course it's been done in situations where the crew wanted to be saved. Can you think of one situation where what you are suggesting has worked? I bet not, because it's not practical. What if the captain chooses a route that brings it close to underwater hazards? Then a loss of control and power could easily make martyrs of them all. How do they know a storm won't come up? What if they deliberately sail during a storm? What if they spring a leak? What if the crew scuttles the ship? I don't see any way of getting around the fact that to seize a ship, you need to take control of it completely.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Has this ever been done before? And in any case, the crew would have to be subdued once the ship reached Israel.

A much easier task when you have it in a dock.

Of course it's been done in situations where the crew wanted to be saved. Can you think of one situation where what you are suggesting has worked?

No, exactly why I'm saying it would need to be built, tested and validated.

I bet not, because it's not practical. What if the captain chooses a route that brings it close to underwater hazards?

What if the captain chooses to get really drunk and ram his ship into a another ship, what if, what if. Lets be realistic and limit are selves to things are are most likely.

Then a loss of control and power could easily make martyrs of them all.

It could take only minutes to disable the ship, clamp it and begin towing, I don't think your scenario is likely.

How do they know a storm won't come up?

I would think the system would need to be designed to tow a ship even in a storm.

What if they spring a leak? What if the crew scuttles the ship?

Those are exactly the reason why the Israelis have to minimized the chances of causing a leak.

I don't see any way of getting around the fact that to seize a ship, you need to take control of it completely.

In all honest probably because your stupid.

 

[GeoffP]

Q: Why does Israel need to have enemies?
A: Because it would have nothing worth fighting for if it didn't. Religion doesn't mean much to people when they aren't surrounded by enemies on all sides.

I disagree. Numerous extremely religious nations exist that have no enemies surrounding them.