Your least favorite arguement used by the other side

notPresidentAndrew

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If you're an atheist, I want to know what your least favorite arguement used by theists is. If you are a theist, I want to know what your least favorite arguement used by atheists is.

My least favorite arguement used by atheists has to be the "would you really want to live forever?" one. Following the logic of that thesis we might as well all kill ourselves right now because we might wake up one day and be "bored." :rolleyes:
 
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Good question Andrew,
My least favorite argument is when someone writes "God is real" as though it was fact. It is the one thing that annoys me. Personally I wasted too long believing in god, and in the end I knew I was wrong. So I hate it when it is said that "God is real".
 
The comment the theist must hate the most from an atheist is "prove it".

And the statement I hate the most from theists is "I can feel God within me, that's proof enough".
 
Jesus loves me yes I know
cause the bible tells me so.

even as a kid in sunday school i though this was especially silly.
 
From Theists:

The following, in ascending order of my hatred:
10. "People grow out of atheism when they get older."
9. "I can't argue this myself. Here is a link: http://www.somerandombullshit.com"
8. "Well, your logic is flawed, but this is a discussion for another day."
7. (The following argument is represented in a pidgin form of C.)
main()
{
while(atheist != frustrated) {
say("define that\n");
}
say("See\? You can\'t define that word without using it in the definition\. I win\!");
}
6. "You're just not being open-minded to the possibility of God."
5. "Almost six billion people can't be all wrong."
4. Paley's Watch
3. Descartes's second postulate
2. Pascal's Wager
1. "Why don't you believe?" or "The default state of man is to believe in God," or anything attempting to shift the burden of proof to the atheist.
 
Arguments like this one:

A number of sceptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical, just like ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’

So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: ‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’ In reply, Christians should use the following reasoning:

Everything which has a beginning has a cause.1
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause.

It’s important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Is. 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.

If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy — the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible. So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause — no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused — nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

IN SUMMARY

The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.

It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.

The universe therefore requires a cause, just as Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:20 teach.

God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause.

OBJECTIONS

There are only two ways to refute an argument:

Show that it is logically invalid

Show that at least one of the premises is false.

a) Is the argument valid?

A valid argument is one where it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Note that validity does not depend on the truth of the premises, but on the form of the argument. The argument in this paper is valid; it is of the same form as: All whales have backbones; Moby Dick is a whale; therefore Moby Dick has a backbone. So the only hope for the sceptic is to dispute one or both of the premises.

b) Are the premises true?

1) Does the universe have a beginning?

Oscillating universe ideas were popularized by atheists like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov solely to avoid the notion of a beginning, with its implications of a Creator. But as shown above, the Laws of Thermodynamics undercut that argument. Even an oscillating universe cannot overcome those laws. Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy. This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past.2

Also, there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place, i.e., the universe is ‘open’. According to the best estimates (even granting old-earth assumptions), the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction. This includes the combined total of both luminous matter and non- luminous matter (found in galactic halos), as well as any possible contribution of neutrinos to total mass.3 Some recent evidence for an ‘open’ universe comes from the number of light-bending ‘gravitational lenses’ in the sky.4 Also, analysis of Type Ia supernovae shows that the universe’s expansion rate is not slowing enough for a closed universe.5,6 It seems like there is only 40-80% of the required matter to cause a ‘big crunch’. Incidentally, this low mass is also a major problem for the currently fashionable ‘inflationary’ version of the ‘big bang’ theory, as this predicts a mass density just on the threshold of collapse — a ‘flat’ universe.

Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch’.7 As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics says that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’ Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end.8

2) Denial of cause and effect

Some physicists assert that quantum mechanics violates this cause/effect principle and can produce something from nothing. For instance, Paul Davies writes:

… spacetime could appear out of nothingness as a result of a quantum transition. … Particles can appear out of nowhere without specific causation … Yet the world of quantum mechanics routinely produces something out of nothing.9

But this is a gross misapplication of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics never produces something out of nothing. Davies himself admitted on the previous page that his scenario ‘should not be taken too seriously.’

Theories that the universe is a quantum fluctuation must presuppose that there was something to fluctuate — their ‘quantum vacuum’ is a lot of matter-antimatter potential — not ‘nothing’. Also, I have plenty of theoretical and practical experience at quantum mechanics (QM) from my doctoral thesis work. For example, Raman spectroscopy is a QM phenomenon, but from the wavenumber and intensity of the spectral bands, we can work out the masses of the atoms and force constants of the bonds causing the bands. To help the atheist position that the universe came into existence without a cause, one would need to find Raman bands appearing without being caused by transitions in vibrational quantum states, or alpha particles appearing without pre-existing nuclei, etc. If QM was as acausal as some people think, then we should not assume that these phenomena have a cause. Then I may as well burn my Ph.D. thesis, and all the spectroscopy journals should quit, as should any nuclear physics research.

Also, if there is no cause, there is no explanation why this particular universe appeared at a particular time, nor why it was a universe and not, say, a banana or cat which appeared. This universe can't have any properties to explain its preferential coming into existence, because it wouldn't have any properties until it actually came into existence.

Is creation by God rational?

A last desperate tactic by sceptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is meaningless to talk about what happened ‘before’ the universe began. But he claims that causes must precede their effects. So if nothing happened ‘before’ the universe began, then (according to Davies) it is meaningless to discuss the cause of the universe’s beginning.

But the philosopher (and New Testament scholar) William Lane Craig, in a useful critique of Davies,10 pointed out that Davies is deficient in philosophical knowledge. Philosophers have long discussed the notion of simultaneous causation. Immanuel Kant (1724–1804) gave the example of a weight resting on a cushion simultaneously causing a depression in it. Craig says: The first moment of time is the moment of God's creative act and of creation's simultaneous coming to be.

Some skeptics claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the nature of science. So this can’t be used to prove creation by God. Of course, sceptics can't have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.’
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3791.asp

It is not an especially good argument and this is a terrible account of it, what I hate about it though is the way it combines science and philosophy in such an unseemly manner. The universe is complex and chaotic, it is too proud to conform to "logical"analyses. Logic is simple, absolute and has clean lines, empirical observation is messy and limited. They can only be grudgingly combined. That probably makes no sense to anyone. Oh well.


__________________
Muscleman/whatsupall (2002-2003):
"or should i get more stupider"
 
You're right Andrew, it's all one sided really, there's not enough religious folk here to create a real debate of any kind.
 
Originally posted by notPresidentAndrew
Man, there are more atheists here than at the Internet Infidels.


Yeah that's true; why don't you just make another account at Christainforums?
 
Just Fighting

Originally posted by Vienna
You're right Andrew, it's all one sided really, there's not enough religious folk here to create a real debate of any kind.
Religious folk don't generally instigate real debate in my experience.
 
Originally posted by seesaw
Yeah that's true; why don't you just make another account at Christainforums?

I've used up all of my "non-free" email addresses, and I can't get my other ones out of my other usernames. Plus I think they have my IP address tracked. They banned my Scottster account even though I never told them I was BlueSub or notMichaelJackson, my first two accounts.
 
The argument that I find most annoying, from any side, is that wonderful combination of the fallacies of "argument from ignorance" and "false dilemma". It usually comes in the form of "I/we don't know or can't prove that X happened that way so it must have happened this way.

It's used most often by creationists and ID proponents but is definitely not limited to them.

I'd also have to say that "changing the subject", and "straw man" fallacies are also quite irritating.

~Raithere
 
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