When christians go to prove their god they abandon most of the key concepts that seperate their god from another's and try to prove an "intelligent designer" or a "first cause". When an athiest goes to disprove an idea of god he neccesarily avoids such insubstantial definitions of a god to go right to disproving those things that should be substantiated if their religion is true. And yet we wonder why these arguments seem to be getting us nowhere.