Xmas and newyear

I

I-Am-Invisible

sick of it all.
Registered Senior Member
hi all

i was just wondering: isn't christmas and newyear the same?

chrstmas is the winter solstice, and originally a pagan concept, adopted by the chrstians. now along comes dionysius exiguus defining that jesus was born 754 after the foundation of rome. in those day zero wasn't a known mathematical size so year one is defined originally (it is now belived he was born 7-2 bc)as the year of jesus birth.

so tell me. are we celebrating this persons birthday twice? if you could create your own calender at which historical event would you start counting?
 
Gregorian calendar is bullshit. Emperors of Rome added days and stuff.
Mayans did have more sensible calendar and pretty damn accured too,
also Chinese align their calender with moon.
My calender would start after winter solstice (25th) and and one month would be the moon cycle, simple as that. Our current calender is moved away from natural cycles.
No persons or historical events to my calender to be as a starting point, only astrology.
The 25th we can celebrate birth of many more Gods than Jesus Christ, i.e. Horus, Mithra and many others, take your pick, you are celebrating the birth of sun anyway.
 
BlueMoose said:
Gregorian calendar is bullshit. Emperors of Rome added days and stuff. Mayans did have more sensible calendar and pretty damn accured too, also Chinese align their calender with moon.
My calender would start after winter solstice (25th) and and one month would be the moon cycle, simple as that. Our current calender is moved away from natural cycles. No persons or historical events to my calender to be as a starting point, only astrology. The 25th we can celebrate birth of many more Gods than Jesus Christ, i.e. Horus, Mithra and many others, take your pick, you are celebrating the birth of sun anyway.
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M*W: Why is this concept so hard for christians to understand? I call that "wishful negating of the truth."
 
Indeed. Because if Jesus was just a carpenter and ordinary prophet like Buddha and others, all the Jesus coming back theories with apocalypse and all that shaait aint probably gonna happen, and there is no superiority compared to other Messiahs in their doctrine anymore. Maybe thats why ?
 
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hmm.. let me clarify, i'm atheist. these questions are just asked out of a christian perspective because i live in a christian society. so was jesus born twice? :p

have there been modern attempts to introduce a secular calendar?
@bluemoose: you still need to keep track of the years! counting is necessary, so where would you start?
 
I-Am-Invisible said:
hmm.. let me clarify, i'm atheist. these questions are just asked out of a christian perspective because i live in a christian society. so was jesus born twice? :p

have there been modern attempts to introduce a secular calendar?
@bluemoose: you still need to keep track of the years! counting is necessary, so where would you start?
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-Starting year could be any year when there is/was major event in space ;)

-Our new year is artificial event, I dont know why you wanna celebrate born of Jesus then ?
 
I-Am-Invisible said:
so is christmas. they are both artificial events but with the same legitimation...

@cosmic:
but i like fireworks!:bawl:
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-I dont quite follow,
Christmas ~ Winter Solstice / birthday of Christ.
New Year ~ Gregorian calender ends December 31 and start of new cycle.

-Can you clarify why you think that those artificial events have same legitimation ? (winter solstice isnt artificial)
 
A Lunar based calendar seems silly. The Jewish calendar requires a leap month every 5-10 years or so to keep synchronized with the actual seasons. Nobody in the temperate zone wants 90 degree temperatures in December & January. Only a tropical culture can easily tolerate a Lunar based calendar.

A solar based calendar can easily be synchronized to agricultural activities. A Leap Day every 4 years worked for almost 1600 years (from about 4 BC to 1582) before it deviated from the solar year by about 10 days. The Gregorian calendar started with (I think) a ten day advance in the date. It does not have Leap days in years divisible by 100 but not divisible by 400.

BTW: The computer industry lucked out due to 2000 being a Leap Year, allowing millions of software programs to remain correct. If The computer industry had matured by 1900 or waited until 2100, all those programs would have been in error: 1900, 2100, 2200, & 2300 are not Leap Years.

Problems with the date for Easter was the justification for the Gregorian calendar replacing the Julian calendar. The real reason was probably due to problems with deciding when to start planting crops, which was the reason for the occasional Leap month in the Jewish calendar.

I would like to see a calendar reform which will probably never happen. 364 is a multiple of 7. There have been many calendars (often called World Calendars) proposed which have a special day (usually called World Day) occurring between December & January. World Day is not in any month & is not a day of the week. It is just World Day. In Leap Years, there is another World Day 6 months after the normal one.

With a few adjustments, a World Calendar has 4 equal quarters of 91 days each: Two 30-day months followed by a 31 day month. Accountants love it: They have an extra day at the end of each quarter to do their special quarterly bookkeeping activities. Financial planning does not need adjustment for the short quarter caused by February in our current calendar.

Most people would also like a World Calendar. Each date falls on the same day of the week every year. The first of January would always be a Monday. With a few adjustments, holidays like Independence Day, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Christmas, et cetera would always be either a Friday or a Monday, resulting in a lot of 3-day weekends in addition to the one at the end of each year (Saturday, Sunday, & World Day followed by Monday, 1 January).
 
BlueMoose said:
The 25th we can celebrate birth of many more Gods than Jesus Christ, i.e. Horus, Mithra and many others, take your pick, you are celebrating the birth of sun anyway.
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December\January is a good time for a holiday. Celebrating the birth of the sun is quite a long shot, dont you think?
 
I-Am-Invisible said:
hi all

i was just wondering: isn't christmas and newyear the same?

chrstmas is the winter solstice, and originally a pagan concept, adopted by the chrstians. now along comes dionysius exiguus defining that jesus was born 754 after the foundation of rome. in those day zero wasn't a known mathematical size so year one is defined originally (it is now belived he was born 7-2 bc)as the year of jesus birth.

so tell me. are we celebrating this persons birthday twice? if you could create your own calender at which historical event would you start counting?
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I would probably start from the Day of the crucifixion of Jesus. Or the Day of His resurrection.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Medicine*Woman said:
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M*W: Why is this concept so hard for christians to understand? I call that "wishful negating of the truth."
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Firstly, your implying that all Christians are stupid, and uneducated about their faith. That's a very ignorant thing to say.

And secondly, when you really start to look at the 'similarities', you find they are not as compelling as generally presented by those who wish to make the point that Jesus is a 'copy'.

For example, Horus supposed to originate from a 'virgin birth' that pre-dates Jesus by several hundred years. However, remember that the prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah pre-dates that virgin birth story by several hundred years as well, so who is actually copying from what?

The most complete and accurate revelation of God prior to Jesus is through the covenant with Abraham, that does not mean there was no revelation in other cultures. What they saw in the 'shadows' of their mythology could in fact have been a preparation to receive the Gospel. Considering that many of them did just that, while the Gospel was rejected by mainline Judaiism gives that idea some weight I think.
 
John99 said:
December\January is a good time for a holiday. Celebrating the birth of the sun is quite a long shot, dont you think?
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-Well, every one is free to celebrate what ever they want in winter solstice,
but that event happened to be the birth of the sun to ancients and we carry on the altered tradition with coca-cola santas and stuff,
but you should know this already ;)
 
Note that while the Dec 25th date was orginally considered the winter solstice the actual date is now Dec 21/22, and which date very few recognize or celebrate.

So we now have three dates in the western world -

Dec 21 - The real start of the new year - the solstice.

Dec 25 - What was a pagan date to celebrate the real new year but was stolen by the Christians to celebrate something where no one knows the real date that might not even have occurred.

Jan 1 - An official start of a new year that doesn't relate anything real.

So we celebrate everything except reality. Doh!
 
BlueMoose said:
-Well, every one is free to celebrate what ever they want in winter solstice,
but that event happened to be the birth of the sun to ancients and we carry on the altered tradition with coca-cola santas and stuff,
but you should know this already ;)
Click to expand...

I dont celebrate December 25th or winter stolstice, no matter what day it falls on.

but that event happened to be the birth of the sun to ancients
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You mean Dec, 25th?
 
ggazoo said:
However, remember that the prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah pre-dates that virgin birth story by several hundred years as well, so who is actually copying from what?
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One of the reasons most Jews reject that Jesus is the messiah is because he was not supposed to be born of a virgin. After all these centuries of arguments Christians have still not been able to convince the majority.

The most complete and accurate revelation of God prior to Jesus is through the covenant with Abraham, that does not mean there was no revelation in other cultures. What they saw in the 'shadows' of their mythology could in fact have been a preparation to receive the Gospel. Considering that many of them did just that, while the Gospel was rejected by mainline Judaiism gives that idea some weight I think.
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This of course is a subjective belief that Yahweh is the "one true God". A belief that many other religous people reject.
The Gospel was no doubt rejected by mainstream Judaism because it's idealogies conflicted with theirs. They were the new upstart kids on the block and were causing problems for the orthodox priesthood.
 
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