Winds of change are coming so stop being Islamophobes!

[Michael]

I was surprised to see that Islam was biased towards men in this way. I didn't know in some Mosques women must enter via a backdoor? Or can not pray in the main room with the men?

Well, that’s just not going to fly for many women (or men) in the modern world. If one were to ask me: "Are women “equal” in Islam?", from what I can see I'd have to say no, not really equal - as I would think "equal". (just like Xianity - see not so different after all

Muslim woman defies hardliners

An all-male "tribunal" of the mosque in Morgantown, West Virginia, wants to banish Ms Nomani because they think she is a frequent trouble-maker.

In their campaign to silence her, she has been depicted as heretical, misguided and westernized, someone in need of reform.

They argue that women should only be allowed to enter a mosque through the back door, pray from the balcony and quietly go home.

I thought this was an interesting article on number of levels.

Firstly, it demonstrates that it is the culture that exerts the most influence on society – not religion. Religion is just a reflection of society, and conveniently has always remained obscure enough to be interpreted appropriately within society – else it wouldn’t have lasted or spread. This is only possible by remaining malleable (a sort of religious survival of the fittest). In that sense we can see Islam is no different then any other. This is obvious by the similarities and acquiescence to the then culture from which is arose (such as rules for multiple wives or slave ownership).

Therefore, those of you who are so worried about “Islam taking over the world” needn’t worry. For secular countries, Islam will undoubtedly be tamed and forgotten just as quickly as Christendom - relegated to the sphere of personal-world-view with little influence or power over the public as a whole. ie: goverments will remain secular, etc. . . . In that sense we can see this is beginning to occur with examples just like this one. So all you Islamophobes out there, stop worrying about Islam, it is the interpretation of Islam that will change and progress, I seriously doubt society will regress.

Secondly, outside of maybe one Eastern religion, all religions are set up with intrinsic patriarchal dominance – thus men are closest to the Godhead which of course mirrors the society and one could say validates the balance of power inherent to the community or tribe from which the religion was conjured up. This is of course inconsistent with the modern view. And so, again, I thought this was wonderful that this woman is challenging the establishment. It wouldn’t surprise me if a new Islamic branch doesn’t form someday soon. But regartless, it is evident that change is on it's way for Islam in the West.

 

[786]

Well, it's a nice topic. I'll share m understanding.

Mosques are for men. And home is for women. But if a women chooses to go to the mosque, then she is welcomed. (The women you are talking about should be able to go to the mosque, don't know why this is happening)

 

[spidergoat]

I'm not sure if one woman in West Virginia represents the adaptation of Islam to the west and it's assimilation into the dominant culture. Our US government is growing less secular under Bush with public funding going to "faith based organizations" (churches). The world, in the growing absence of state against state conflict, is seeing a rise in religious based fighting. Also, Islamic fundamentalism is rising in the middle east. OK, we disbanded the Taliban, but they are not the only ones. Iraq under a "democracy" will soon become another Islamic Theocracy, you'll see.

 

[Michael]

Mosques are for men. And home is for women.

Who is head of the home - the Women or the Man?

The belief that “Mosques are for men only” will never survive in a modern secular society - the idea of equality will crystallize and one day the notion that women should be just as involved in the Mosque as a man will be the norm. Either that or Islam will not last in a secular society. To survive it will have to reflect society. Which is exactly why it is: Mosques are for men. And home is for women. That’s a reflection of patriarchal tribal culture.

Its either that or go the way of the Quakers and Amish - to try and shield themselves from society altogether.

I'm not sure if one woman in West Virginia represents the adaptation of Islam to the west and it's assimilation into the dominant culture.

True, but it is a good sign. I think we’ll see more and more of it as the decades go by.

Our US government is growing less secular under Bush with public funding going to "faith based organizations" (churches).

I do agree Bush would like for the US as a whole to become more Xian and has tried to use what powers he has been granted to push this agenda. Not to mention that the Xian right is pushing for this as well. However, when polled, the average American doesn’t want a President that is too religious (although some belief is desired). I think the US government is decisively secular and this is fundamental to the constitution - I don’t think that is going to change. As for the US funding faith based religious groups; I think these are mainly community centers. It is difficult to mobilize people to help other people (unless they get something for it). So either we pay people and have no religous charities or we support charities and suffer with a little religiousness sneaking into the “help-center”. I personally think the religious based centers are harmless and will not have a major religious-impact on the society as a whole. But I don’t like the precedent of taxes going to religious organizations either!

The world, in the growing absence of state against state conflict, is seeing a rise in religious based fighting.

Maybe, maybe not. There has always been quite a bit of religious-based fighting in the world. Although I think situations such as Sudan are more pressing.

Islamic fundamentalism is rising in the middle east. OK, we disbanded the Taliban, but they are not the only ones. Iraq under a "democracy" will soon become another Islamic Theocracy, you'll see.

Firstly, most of the ME could not be considered a modern society. I think for the most part the ME has always been fundamentally religious (even before Islam) so that isn’t a change.

I'm not sure if the US really had a right to disband the Taliban and put a oli-puppet in charge or the cuntry. Sad really. But then again, they (the Taliban) picked the wrong side to support and paid the price - fair enough.

So what if Iraq becomes an Islamic Theocracy? It’s their choice after all – and quite frankly none of my business. Obviously, if that's the case, then Iraqi’s (as a whole) are not worthy of having a democracy. If they were, they'd have it. A democracy is one of the hardest forms of governments to maintain and takes a tremendous amount of will from the people to support it. It can not be installed overnight. It can be forced into people – via generations of occupation. But why bother? In Iraq I hear a bunch of scapegoating (not spidergoating about how they used to be occupied by colonial powers 60-80 years ago and THAT’S the reason why they aren’t a democracy. Well, at one time so was the US and 50 years ago so was Korea, Singapore, India, Hong Kong etc.. . . . . So in summary, Iraq can be a Theocracy – that’s perfectly fine by me – and, again, it’s none of my business - - - why would I care? Maybe You're right and they will be, I'm certainly don't think any ME country (outside of Turkey) has the muster to be a modern democratic country at this point in time.

 

[786]

I don't think you read my complete post. I also said that a women is welcomed in the mosque if she wishes to come.

 

[surenderer]

Men and women both are allowed to pray in the mosque in the same Jama’ah. When men and women are together in the Masjid then we should have first men’s lines behind the Imam, then children and then women. This is the way Muslims used to pray behind the Prophet - peace be upon him.It is perfectly Islamic to hold meetings of men and women inside the Masjid, whether for prayers or for any other Islamic purpose, without separating them with a curtain, partition or wall(some mosques i have been in have these). It is, however, very important that Muslim women come to public gatherings wearing proper Islamic dress. It is haram for a Muslim woman to attend a public gathering without a full Islamic dress. She must cover her hair and neck with a scarf which should also go over her bosom. Her dress should be modest and loose enough in order not to reveal the shape of her bodyThis was done, perhaps, because some women began coming to mosques without observing proper Islamic dress, or perhaps, some men wanted to discourage them from coming to mosques. In the time of the Prophet - peace be upon him - there was no curtain or partition in his Masjid, although women used to come to the Masjid almost for every prayer and for many other gatherings. It is, however, reported that they used to come to the Masjid covered up with long clothes.....peace

 

[Michael]

I don't think you read my complete post. I also said that a women is welcomed in the mosque if she wishes to come.

786, that is true, however – why start your reply with: “Mosques are for men. And home is for women.”? That implies that the woman is not “as” welcome as men in a Mosque.

Wouldn’t it be better to say: “Mosques are for men and women”.

And as for “home” – why include the nature of home in your comment of the nature of Mosques? I mean if you’re going to include "home" why not include the "grocery market" as well?

Including "home" is a relevent as including "grocery markets". Neither have to do with the nature of "Mosques". It's like saying: “Mosques are for men. And the grocery market is for women.” As if because the grocery market is for women – then it’s OK for the mosque to be for men. It doesn’t make much sense. Although, as you said, women are welcome – so long as they understand that the Mosques are not a place for them - their place is at home - the “Mosques are for men”.

Which is fine - if that's the way it is that's the way it is. I really wouldn't expect it to be any other way really. One has to take the patricidal nature of the society from which Islam arose into account.

So my questions are:

(1) Who is head of the home - the Women or the Man?
(2) Why is it that some Mosques only allow women to enter via a backdoor and not the proper front door? That in and of itself does not seem all that inviting - to me anyhow.
(3) What do you mean: “Mosques are for men”?

 

[Michael]

Men and women both are allowed to pray in the mosque in the same Jama’ah. When men and women are together in the Masjid then we should have first men’s lines behind the Imam, then children and then women. This is the way Muslims used to pray behind the Prophet - peace be upon him. . . . . .

This does make perfect sense. Particularly, when you think back to the type of society that was prevalent at the time of Islams inception. I’m sure that many of the other religions at that time and place had identical restrictions and acquiescence’s. And, as many of the same sort of societal norms are still in effect in the ME one could expect the same religious norms to remain in effect as well. As a general rule we could expect that the religous etiquette would tighten as society becomes more religiously fundamental (Saudi Arabia and Iran) and loosen in societies that are secular (such as America or Europe).

Which brings me to at least one point. In places where the notion of a woman and a man are equal is the norm. Segregation of men and women in their religious places will not be tolerated. Eventually either the religion will change to accommodate societal norms or it will vanish (I’m talking about over tens of generations). Which is why I think it’s a waste of emotion for people to worry about “Islam taking over the world”.

What they are really worried about is that the freedoms they see as normal will be lost and replaced with some sort of middle eastern notion of societal normality. Which is just plain silly. It is of course the religion that will change to meet societies norms - just as you clearly pointed out how it was at it’s inception and as it stands to reason as it will be in the future. Its society that dictates what is religous normality - not the other way around.

 

[surenderer]

This does make perfect sense. Particularly, when you think back to the type of society that was prevalent at the time of Islams inception. I’m sure that many of the other religions at that time and place had identical restrictions and acquiescence’s. And, as many of the same sort of societal norms are still in effect in the ME one could expect the same religious norms to remain in effect as well. As a general rule we could expect that the religous etiquette would tighten as society becomes more religiously fundamental (Saudi Arabia and Iran) and loosen in societies that are secular (such as America or Europe).

Which brings me to at least one point. In places where the notion of a woman and a man are equal is the norm. Segregation of men and women in their religious places will not be tolerated. Eventually either the religion will change to accommodate societal norms or it will vanish (I’m talking about over tens of generations). Which is why I think it’s a waste of emotion for people to worry about “Islam taking over the world”.

What they are really worried about is that the freedoms they see as normal will be lost and replaced with some sort of middle eastern notion of societal normality. Which is just plain silly. It is of course the religion that will change to meet societies norms - just as you clearly pointed out how it was at it’s inception and as it stands to reason as it will be in the future. Its society that dictates what is religous normality - not the other way around.

Salaam,
Well the reason for Men being in fron of Women doesnt have anything to do with "superiority" or anything the reason is because prayer in Islam requires alotta prostrating and bending over etc.....things which would be inappropiate for both the men and woman(its not at all like sitting in a pew at church ) If you have ever been to a mosque to see prayer you would notice that all muslims stand close together(like a family) in lines so having women in front of men would not be right. I know that we as Men shouldnt be there to "check out the women" but a distraction is a distraction and the Prophet(pbuh) tried to avoid that....peace

 

[786]

786, that is true, however – why start your reply with: “Mosques are for men. And home is for women.”? That implies that the woman is not “as” welcome as men in a Mosque.

Wouldn’t it be better to say: “Mosques are for men and women”.

And as for “home” – why include the nature of home in your comment of the nature of Mosques? I mean if you’re going to include "home" why not include the "grocery market" as well?

Including "home" is a relevent as including "grocery markets". Neither have to do with the nature of "Mosques". It's like saying: “Mosques are for men. And the grocery market is for women.” As if because the grocery market is for women – then it’s OK for the mosque to be for men. It doesn’t make much sense. Although, as you said, women are welcome – so long as they understand that the Mosques are not a place for them - their place is at home - the “Mosques are for men”.

Which is fine - if that's the way it is that's the way it is. I really wouldn't expect it to be any other way really. One has to take the patricidal nature of the society from which Islam arose into account.

So my questions are:

(1) Who is head of the home - the Women or the Man?
(2) Why is it that some Mosques only allow women to enter via a backdoor and not the proper front door? That in and of itself does not seem all that inviting - to me anyhow.
(3) What do you mean: “Mosques are for men”?

Well, I guess I put it in the wrong way, sorry. Anyhow let me answer your questions.

1. I don't know the answer to that, maybe someone else could help.
2. That shouldn't be the way it should be done. But some mosques do this becuase they don't want any sexual provocation. They take pre-caution, there is nothing wrong with taking precaution. But they should let women in from the frontdoor.
3. In a hadith, I read. Men are more obligated to go to a mosque than a women. But that doesnt' mean that women can't go to the mosque.