Why Time May Have No Beginning

[MarkCGreer]

This could be a huge realization.

Earth sits in orbit around the sun within a goldilocks zone. Life on this planet thrives best in it's goldilocks zone depending on the species. Earth sits in the outer portion of the galaxy, also a goldilocks zone.

Numerically, we can count infinitely high, and we can also get infinitely small. Why is our world the size it is? Why aren't humans smaller? Because relative to all other things in physics like atoms, this is the size that fits. It's relative. Just as the earth orbits the sun in the goldilocks zone, our size is a goldilocks zone of physics. Small animals are quick and jerky, large dinosaurs are slow and lethargic.

Now apply that to time. The universe's existence itself, is in a goldilocks zone for time. Time does not exist outside the goldilocks zone. Time only exists in it's zone.

Perhaps the reason big bang inflation appears to happen faster than the speed of light, and why the universe expansion is speeding up, is because time itself is variable along its curve. This could also validate the theory that all time exists past, present and future?

 

[AlexG]

This certainly belongs in Alternative Theories.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I have suggested graphing time on a logarithmic scale rather than linear. This would put the Big Bang at minus infinity, graphically reinforcing the almost-fact that the question "what existed before the Big Bang" is as meaningless as "how does matter behave at temperatures below absolute zero."

It also stretches out those first few yoctoseconds in the life of the universe that are so difficult to analyze.

Besides, who are we to arrogantly assume that time actually passes in a linear fashion, just because we happen to be built to perceive it that way? All of the formulas that describe the operation of the universe can be easily transformed to account for logarithmic time.

In any case, even if it is logarithmic, by now the rate of acceleration is so slight that it would be almost impossible to detect with precision instruments (if we could conceptualize and construct such an instrument), much less with organic sense organs.

 

[Motor Daddy]

This could be a huge realization.

Earth sits in orbit around the sun within a goldilocks zone.

What do you mean a goldilocks zone? The earth is simply where it is at any given point in time, nothing more. You know why you can ask why are we here? Because we are. Why aren't you asking yourself why we are there instead of here? Wherever you go there you are!

Life on this planet thrives best in it's goldilocks zone depending on the species. Earth sits in the outer portion of the galaxy, also a goldilocks zone.

Again, you are saying that an apple thrives best at temperatures of 60 degrees and not 3,000 degrees. There are no apples at 3,000 degrees. Apples aren't oranges because oranges are oranges and they aren't apples.

Numerically, we can count infinitely high, and we can also get infinitely small.

You mean you can always add 1 to any number? That's quite a concept.

Why is our world the size it is?

Because it's not a different size.

Why aren't humans smaller?

We are.

Because relative to all other things in physics like atoms, this is the size that fits. It's relative.

Fits what? The size of an atom fits too, so does the size of a basketball, the moon, the atom, the orange, the spider, ant, bacteria, galaxy, universe, multiverse...

Just as the earth orbits the sun in the goldilocks zone, our size is a goldilocks zone of physics.

The earth orbits the sun like the sun orbits the black hole of our galaxy. What's your point?

Small animals are quick and jerky, large dinosaurs are slow and lethargic.

f=ma sound familiar? Lighter cars are quicker than heavier cars if they use the same drive train. Put 5 people in your back seat and find out how your car accelerates at a lower rate.

Now apply that to time. The universe's existence itself, is in a goldilocks zone for time. Time does not exist outside the goldilocks zone. Time only exists in it's zone.

Time always exists. Time is a duration which has no bearing on the existence of objects other than the fact that it requires objects to measure time. You said you could count to infinity, right? Well, how much time has elapsed since 20 billion years before the universe supposedly started 13.7 billion years ago? I say 33.7 billion years, what say you?

Perhaps the reason big bang inflation appears to happen faster than the speed of light, and why the universe expansion is speeding up, is because time itself is variable along its curve. This could also validate the theory that all time exists past, present and future?

Time is not variable. We've already defined time. If you want, you can define time in terms of the duration the universe has existed. That duration is 13.7 billion years. It's already been defined. You can speak in terms of seconds or in terms of the duration the universe existed as a unit of measure of time.

 

[Rhaedas]

More of the fine-tuned universe fallacy.

If things weren't just so, then we wouldn't be here to notice. Or someone else would be here, remarking how things are just perfect for them to be there.

Not all large dinosaurs were slow either.

 

[rcscwc]

Time does not have a beginning as it is not even a physical quantity. Time is "detected" only by dint of motion. If the universe is afflicted by stasis, there would be no way of having time.

 

[Xotica]

Earth sits in orbit around the sun within a goldilocks zone. Life on this planet thrives best in it's goldilocks zone depending on the species. Earth sits in the outer portion of the galaxy, also a goldilocks zone.

Comparative Planetology. For future reference:

Solar Habitable Zone (SHZ)
Galactic Habitable Zone (GHZ)

Why aren't humans smaller? Because relative to all other things in physics like atoms, this is the size that fits.

Life occupies a scale niche approximately midway between the largest (cosmological) and the smallest (quantum) realms of magnitude.

 

[Cyperium]

Comparative Planetology. For future reference:

Solar Habitable Zone (SHZ)
Galactic Habitable Zone (GHZ)


Life occupies a scale niche approximately midway between the largest (cosmological) and the smallest (quantum) realms of magnitude.

I made a program that halved the size of the universe each time it doubled the size of the quantum length. I then designed it to stop when they met. It turned out that they met at:
4.58387 * 10^-5, or 0.0000458387 meters.

These are the variables I used:
universe = (1.3 * (10 ^ 26))
planck = 16.163 * (10 ^ -36)

And this is the program (in QB64 - you can search google for it if you want to try the program, it's free):

DIM planck AS _FLOAT 
DIM universe AS _FLOAT 
DIM acc AS _FLOAT 
universe = (1.3 * (10 ^ 26)) 
planck = 16.163 * (10 ^ -36) 
 
acc = 2 
 
DO 
    universe = universe / acc 
    planck = planck * acc 
 
    PRINT universe, planck 
    IF planck > universe THEN universe = universe * acc: planck = planck / acc: acc = acc - .000001: IF acc = 1.000001 THEN PRINT "small="; universe, planck: END 
LOOP

 

[Aqueous Id]

universe = (1.3 * (10 ^ 26))
planck = 16.163 * (10 ^ -36)

Or you could just find the geometric mean directly:

sqrt(1.6163E-36 m * 1.3E26 m) = 4.58387E-5 m.


If I'm not mistaken that's about 20 to 200 times bigger than bacteria, so primitive life fits nicely into this model per Xotica's point about "scale niche".

What a mind-boggling concept...

so we ARE at the center of the universe! (heh heh)

 

[Aqueous Id]

Time only exists in it's zone.

At some extremely pregnant era, say t = 5.4E-44 (one Planck time), causality seems to be still gestating.

 

[Cyperium]

Or you could just find the geometric mean directly:

sqrt(1.6163E-36 m * 1.3E26 m) = 4.58387E-5 m.


If I'm not mistaken that's about 20 to 200 times bigger than bacteria, so primitive life fits nicely into this model per Xotica's point about "scale niche".

What a mind-boggling concept...

so we ARE at the center of the universe! (heh heh)

Sorry for the late response.


I think it's a good way to envision how amazingly small the quantum length are (that even if we halve the universe the same amount that we double the quantum length it is still fairly small), and in a way I guess that we are at the center of the universe , thanks for the equation, I had no clue as to how to calculate it so I made the program to brute-force attack it instead

 

[Write4U]

This could be a huge realization.

Earth sits in orbit around the sun within a goldilocks zone. Life on this planet thrives best in it's goldilocks zone depending on the species. Earth sits in the outer portion of the galaxy, also a goldilocks zone.

Numerically, we can count infinitely high, and we can also get infinitely small. Why is our world the size it is? Why aren't humans smaller? Because relative to all other things in physics like atoms, this is the size that fits. It's relative. Just as the earth orbits the sun in the goldilocks zone, our size is a goldilocks zone of physics. Small animals are quick and jerky, large dinosaurs are slow and lethargic.

Now apply that to time. The universe's existence itself, is in a goldilocks zone for time. Time does not exist outside the goldilocks zone. Time only exists in it's zone.

Perhaps the reason big bang inflation appears to happen faster than the speed of light, and why the universe expansion is speeding up, is because time itself is variable along its curve. This could also validate the theory that all time exists past, present and future?

I have always maintained that time is an emergent quality of quantum. For a perfectly static condition, time does not exist, but as soon as there is dynamism, time is created in accordance with local conditions. This is why time is not a constant, but a relative quality. But the creation of time also keeps things from happening all at once, which is a good thing. Else we'd be in a constant state of BB.

Before the BB there was a condition of timelessness. During the inflation epoch, everything happened in one place and all at once, a mega quantum event!
After spacetime (a fundamental geometry) was created our universal constants took hold and time became measurable as a result of orderly evolutionary processes.

note, apparently during the inflationary epoch, a lot of (anti-particle) matter seems to have disappeared. This would argue for the notion that it "takes time" for reality to be able to manifest itself from one state into another. When this process happens too fast as in the inflationary epoch, particles literally get lost.
The current string foam theories speculate such a condition where particles pop into and out of existence, depending on their potential.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Sorry for the late response.


I think it's a good way to envision how amazingly small the quantum length are (that even if we halve the universe the same amount that we double the quantum length it is still fairly small), and in a way I guess that we are at the center of the universe , thanks for the equation, I had no clue as to how to calculate it so I made the program to brute-force attack it instead

Oh Hi Cy, time has flown! (speaking of time). Hey... what an interesting concept, that you thought of relating 2x to 0.5x in successive iterations. It's a very unusual way to think of things. I had forgotten about this idea, and in the coming week I'm going to think about it some more. Very thought provoking. ~strokes beard~

 

[kx000]

I would say time needs something to exist in, and a thought. Time would not outdate rhythm either. Eternity would be realized before time. On earth who knows when they figured these things, in the evolution of 'it' they were the first things, certainly.

The universe had to have begun, even if it is a giant time, it must have a start. Start from zero, or one and keep going. Something had to be to time, IN LOVE!

 

[kx000]

I have suggested graphing time on a logarithmic scale rather than linear. This would put the Big Bang at minus infinity, graphically reinforcing the almost-fact that the question "what existed before the Big Bang" is as meaningless as "how does matter behave at temperatures below absolute zero."

It also stretches out those first few yoctoseconds in the life of the universe that are so difficult to analyze.

Besides, who are we to arrogantly assume that time actually passes in a linear fashion, just because we happen to be built to perceive it that way? All of the formulas that describe the operation of the universe can be easily transformed to account for logarithmic time.

In any case, even if it is logarithmic, by now the rate of acceleration is so slight that it would be almost impossible to detect with precision instruments (if we could conceptualize and construct such an instrument), much less with organic sense organs.

Simplicity must have been its forefather. You can't go below zero, boys.

Its not up to us perceive time, but count it, how we will. Just don't mess with rhythm!

Let time stroll like she likes. Its happening. Did he have to be to observe it? Surly, Eternity would be here to hold her hand.

Is Eternity the simplest thing there is? The concept of Heavenly existence would be, no?

 

[kx000]

Are we retarded, to have no beginning? If such a thing were.

To be un-born puke.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Before the BB there was a condition of timelessness.

Whatever may be timeless, if there is such a state, would necessarily coincide with every moment that ever was and ever will be. Assuming that's the case, and if it were true for a pea-sized universe before the BB, the "pea" would be ever-present inside the universe, and it would represent an absolute origin at (0,0,0,0). And presumably it would cause something different than expansion--the Big Crunch?--as it swallowed everything near it, dragging spacetime through a macro scale sphagettification. But "it" lives out side of space as well as outside of time. So "it" ought to persist as a skin around the continuum, consisting of all of the matter that ever was and ever will be. I mean: I think this must be so.

During the inflation epoch, everything happened in one place and all at once, a mega quantum event!

I like to think it diverged from stasis through an infinity of nearly infinite epochs--like the way a steam locomotive would just barely move at the start of its departure from the railroad station and only after an incredibly long series of impossibly slow strokes, it begins to perceptibly inch away. If so, then we might think of time converging to an asymptote at t=0 as we look back, and perhaps the same as we look forward.

 

[kx000]

A timeless state would be of hell buddy. Thats rather illogical. Probably doesn't exist. Are you retarded?

Nature.

 

[Write4U]

Whatever may be timeless, if there is such a state, would necessarily coincide with every moment that ever was and ever will be. Assuming that's the case, and if it were true for a pea-sized universe before the BB, the "pea" would be ever-present inside the universe, and it would represent an absolute origin at (0,0,0,0). And presumably it would cause something different than expansion--the Big Crunch?--as it swallowed everything near it, dragging spacetime through a macro scale sphagettification. But "it" lives out side of space as well as outside of time. So "it" ought to persist as a skin around the continuum, consisting of all of the matter that ever was and ever will be. I mean: I think this must be so.

I like to think it diverged from stasis through an infinity of nearly infinite epochs--like the way a steam locomotive would just barely move at the start of its departure from the railroad station and only after an incredibly long series of impossibly slow strokes, it begins to perceptibly inch away. If so, then we might think of time converging to an asymptote at t=0 as we look back, and perhaps the same as we look forward.

Perhaps the timeless "singularity" may be of any imaginary size. It is only a metaphysical singularity. But within it was contained all universal potential compressed in this infinitely small and dense singularity.

The moment this condition (dynamic zero state) was present, the dynamics of forced an immediate expression (perhaps not unlike a universal mega Nova event. All universal energy was released in a single mega quantum event, which expanded outward into the previous non-existence, until sufficient spacetime was created to activate universal constants and time began as companion to change.
Hehe, that sounds almost religious......

I like David Bohm's propostion of the Implicate (potential) and the Explicate (reality) levels of existence.

One of the most impressive theories emerging out of scientific cosmology respecting these ancient truths was set forth by the late physicist, David Bohm in his book, Wholeness and the Implicate Order. Using the language of mathematics, Bohm set out to describe the transcendent reality and its graded energetic hierarchy in four basic states or orders of energy beginning with the physical world, which he called the Explicate Order.

'The Explicate Order, weakest of all energy systems, resonates out of and is an expression of an infinitely more powerful order of energy called the Implicate order. It is the precursor of the Explicate, the dreamlike vision or the ideal presentation of that which is to become manifest as a physical object. The Implicate order implies within it all physical universes. However, it resonates from an energy field which is yet greater, the realm of pure potential. It is pure potential because nothing is implied within it; implications form in the implicate order and then express themselves in the explicate order. Bohm goes on to postulate a final state of infinite [zero point] energy which he calls the realm of insight intelligence. The creative process springs from this realm. Energy is generated there, gathers its pure potential, and implies within its eventual expression as the explicate order.' Will Keepin, David Bohm, Noetic Science Journal

When Bohm's resonant fields are arranged in a vibrational hierarchy they represent energy in successive states of manifestation from infinitely subtle to the gross physical reality.

The Zero Point Order which Bohm identified as the realm of insight-intelligence bears an unmistakable resemblance to the supreme spiritual realization of Indian metaphysics known as the Brahman, a perfectly inactive, pure noetic plenum realized as Absolute Being. The Brahman is characterized by a complete fusion of Time and Consciousness which is experienced as Timelessness, or undifferentiated Time. In this state Time-energy vibrates at such an intense rate that it appears static and thereby lacking any element of periodicity or denseness. Hence it cannot produce any form or any division of Consciousness-substance into distinct crystallised objects in Space.

http://www.quantumyoga.org/QuantumBrahman.html
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/science/david_bohm.htm#CONTENTS:

 

[kx000]

We never could have NOT existed, or not whatever it may be for that matter. In the grandest term it certainly does, and how.