Why they hate us

[radicand]

Lost some friends and relatives recently, then BR? Or are we talking about a former life?
And let me get this clear. Who is your problem with? The Arabs, many of whom are not Moslem; or, the Moslems, many of whom are not Arabs? If you are going to revive your blood feud it's best if you are sure who you hate.

It's interesting from Sam's poem I got the sense that we had better take a long hard look at the persecution and bloodshed we have tacitly supported for some time. And that's true for both sides of the fence, and for those sitting on it also.

Though I can honestly I do not care about the distinction, but 85% of Arabs are Sunni Muslims.

I did not even mention the obvious insinuation Sam made.

 

[radicand]

Yes its all a big conspiracy. Israel has been throwing flowers, not bombs, there are no dead in Lebanon and Beirut is the Paris of the Middle East.

Glad to see that buff's point flew way over your head. It is too late to call it back.

 

[radicand]

Excuse me: wasn't the debate about whether or not Canada deserved islamic terrorism?

Sam, you seem to be excusing it somehow. Why?

Because it does not fit the agenda!!!

 

[S.A.M.]

Again, I can't exclusively single out Islam. Christianity was just as vile at the same point in its 600-year time-displaced track. Emphasis on afterlife over corporeal life, intolerance and forced conversion or outright genocide for infidels, rejection of many of the essential attributes of civilization such as banking, metaphors as art, and scientific inquiry. Judaism has followed a different course since its lack of an evangelical vector has not caused its ranks to swell so it has never achieved dominance even in a local area. Yet within its wacko fundamentalist wing--such as the Orthodox in Israel and the Hassidim elsewhere--the signs are all there. Militant intolerance, an unshakeable sense that everyone else in the world is wrong, retention of ancient traditions that are no longer necessary like eschewing grain-fed pork or even sensible such as grounding ambulances on Saturday.

Surely you realise that this does not include all members of the religion?
And surely you also realise that religion aside, there are differences of opinion even between countries and political systems that are not compatible?

You gotta be joking? If you're an American you must remember the "born again" craze in the late 1970s and early 1980s--that lapse in the national IQ that coincided amusingly with the disco era. Just now we watched the entire State of Kansas install a public school bureaucracy that mandated a thinly disguised version of creationism in its classrooms. Fortunately it was short-lived but it provides a frightening answer to your question.

I'm afraid I must plead ignorance here. I'm not familiar with the concept of "born-again"?

As for Muslim fundamentalism, that growing network of terrorist training camps from Afghanistan to the Philippines to central Africa, financed by the Saudis, are thinly disguised as Islamic schools for boys, for parents without the money to provide an education anywhere else. The parents may be moderate or even secular, but the kids are converted to fundamentalism and militancy, and ultimately for many of them, to the sociopathy of suicide bombers.I am. What I see throughout the history of Abrahamism is a faith that inspires people to be noble... during good times, when they need it the least.

Yes and if you read the link I gave about the origin of suicide bombings you will see that the terrorism in all these three places is related to occupation and/or oppression. Of course I agree with you about the madrasas being used as terrorist training camps. The Mujahideen used to kidnap boys from Kashmir and forcibly induct them into camps. That they are being funded by Al-Qaeda is significant, because the success of 9/11 followed by the widespread panic and the attack on Iraq (if you remember, Al-Qaeda made no offer to "help" Saddam as they did to help Hezbollah ) proved to them that they had finally got it. If you follow Osama's career from 1982 onwards, you can see that he has been trying for several years before 9/11 to get the attention of the US (embassy bombings, etc). Now that he has been "successful" his organization has become the sine qua non of terrorists worldwide. Everyone wants to get in on the action (including Australian teenagers with delusions of grandeur).

But Abrahamism's central flaw is it's binary, one-dimensional model of the human spirit. Everything is rated on a scale between good and evil, and the only two influences in life are a god and a devil. As every cultural expression from the pantheon of the Egyptians and Greeks to the dramatis personae of Shakespeare's plays to the archetypes of Jung's paradigm has discovered, there are something like 23 components to our spirit and each of us resonates to them in different proportions at different times. Some days we need our hunter or our healer to take over, other days our lover or our king, and they all have to wait their turn and contend for our attention in a healthty, constructive way, with a couple of them achieving general prominence. A paradigm that calls the things that would be wrong to do today, in a particular situation, evil, is shoving all of that personality down into the darkness of our soul, where it festers and eventually explodes out through the cracks.

Yes, but there are differences. I do not know about Judaism, but I have read a lot about Christianity on this forum and I can say with certainty that Islamic philosophy is very different. That is why there are allownaces for anger, for revenge, for defense in Islam, due to a recognition that human beings are not infallible, but they are always accompanied by the maxim that in all cases, it is better to forgive and forget. This is to show the difference between the acceptable and the ideal and to realise that the ideal is not always possible. Whatever else Muslims may be, they are not shy to speak their minds or act on their thoughts, no matter how provocative or controversial.

When life turns really lousy--a famine, a plague, a depression in our country while some funny-looking booze-drinking foreigners are prospering--it's natural to get angry. That's when a religion is really needed to remind us that this too shall pass and we must remain good people even when we don't want to be good people.

Yes and in Muslims we say, God is with those who are patient.

Instead, we have that huge well of suppressed spirits inside us to fuel the anger and give it direction. Our warrior becomes a mere soldier, killing everyone in his path. Our king becomes a despot, demanding power over those who have not accepted his authority. Our hunter regards people who aren't like us as animals and hunts them. Our healer and our parent conspire to create a nanny-state of safety-health-fitness-and-sobriety-at-any-cost fascism.

Perhaps this is the reason why some educated Muslims can become terrorists? Because they accept that the oppression and occupation gives them the right to express themselves as they see fit? I don't know. But some Muslims do believe that oppression must be fought against. They will fight between themselves if they consider themselves oppressed.

The "circumstances that give power to these fringe elements" are universal and cannot be avoided, because they are nothing more or less than the adversity that the universe throws at us regularly.

War and occupation is not an adverse occurrence thrown at us regularly, and if it is we should re-examine why.

If there's anything we can do to disempower the fringe elements of Abrahamism, it's to adopt policies that improve the quality of life for everyone.

I used to think like that before I lived in the ME. I'm from a mixed cosmopolitan society and my family is not religious at all. IMO, all that the Arabs needed was some exposure to the secular ideals of the West. After living there for 4 years, I realised that imposing my notions of secularism on a society not ready to accept it can have the opposite effect. The more I criticised their behavior or interpretation of religion, the more they defended it. It's instinctive to defend what you hold as a part of your identity. I agree that education and secularism should be the ultimate goal, but I doubt that democracy can be forced onto anybody. In India we have a large and diverse community. But when the British came in we were not one country, we were several kingdoms with different languages, customs, food habits, etc. 200 years of British rule could not eradicate the caste system or alter those customs and food habits. Sati is still practised in remote parts of the country; child marriages are still to be seen and we still primarily have arranged marriages( even in Muslims and Christians). How then can a few years of war change the culture of a society that has such limited diversity?

Fundamentalist Christianity rarely gets a foothold in places where people feel safe, healthy, and prosperous. It took hold in America at exactly the time when we began to feel threatened by the political situation in the Middle East, highlighted by the capture of Americans in our own embassy in the capital city of one of our hitherto most dependable allies. It has now taken root throughout the Muslim Third World, where food, clean water, roofs, medical care, and basic safety are tenuous and people will latch onto any hope, no matter how irrational.

Yes and the way out is through education and diplomacy, not war and prejudice.

Recommendation and a bit of proselytism:

Always welcome.

We all fight the darkness in our own ways. My wife and I do it by devoting our entire charity budget to the Central Asia Project in Bozeman, Montana. A regular feature in Parade magazine, this organization grew out of the dream of one man who, due to an accident on a mountain-climbing trip, spent several weeks living in an isolated village and getting a crash course in the sociology of the Muslim Third World. He makes the well-acknowledged point that frat-house, KKK-style lunacy is so easily winning converts in Islamic communities because women have almost no voice. His project is resolutely building schools for girls and coed schools that are required to accept girls throughout the region, including hot spots like Afghanistan.

I agree that women should have a say; even in Israel, it is the women who speak out against the atrocities and the Wall.

So, with my final quotation of your question about "the circumstances that give power to these fringe elements," I reply with a quotation of my own, from a source whose attribution is long forgotten:

"Educating women is the key to peace."

Yes

 

[S.A.M.]

I did not even mention the obvious insinuation Sam made.

But I would be interested to know what it was.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because it does not fit the agenda!!!

And I would like to know this too!

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Excuse me: wasn't the debate about whether or not Canada deserved islamic terrorism?

The question was why do they hate us? (as in the USA)

I started the thread and I intended it to go in the direction Sam indicates. The point of the op-ed I cribbed is that the looney fundies hate Canada too, even though it distances itself from the USA in ways we assumed would fend off their wrath.

As for your long, detailed post, I have no quarrel with most of the things you say. Despite a century-long trend of promising but neither monotonic nor geographically uniform secularization, Western civilization is still Christian at heart. It still subscribes to the pathetic binary model of the human spirit that might as well have been designed by a computer programmer. It's only been sixty years since its last genocide, which when stripped of its political imagery was basically about an ancient religious rivalry. I know that America and the West in general, particularly the Superpowers who came before us and tried to make colonies of all non-Western nations, civilized or not, bears much responsibility for the conditions in which those former colonies now find themselves. That doesn't mean we should sit on the sidelines and wait for them to destroy or just colonize us in retribution.

I understand that democracy and capitalism are both choices and not automatic ones for people whose basic desires are better summed up in one of our most hallowed documents: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That doesn't mean we should be sanguine about the formation of nations who think the solution to being tampered with is to tamper with us.

I understand that most Muslims are moderate or even secularized and own cameras, stereos, dogs, liquor, but no burqas. And that Mohammed would be just as sick about much of what is being done in his name as Jesus would. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be alarmed about the growth in numbers, influence, wealth, and military capability of the fringe.

Apparently we both see that fringe as a deliberate threat to civilization.

 

[Indymaestro]

...And that Mohammed would be just as sick about much of what is being done in his name as Jesus would.

I wouldn't bet on it.

Whereas Jesus supposedly led an honest, peaceful and exemplary life, the same cannot be said for Muhammad who was nothing more than a violent bandit with world-wide ambitions.

When muslims act with violence to expand their religion and push their agendas, they are simply following the precedent that their beloved 'prophet' set 1400 years ago. Perhaps *that* is why they are so touchy about displaying their prophet?

 

[S.A.M.]

I understand that democracy and capitalism are both choices and not automatic ones for people whose basic desires are better summed up in one of our most hallowed documents: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That doesn't mean we should be sanguine about the formation of nations who think the solution to being tampered with is to tamper with us.

Of course not. That would be pointless and destructive. But I fear that action-reaction is more the norm than diplomacy. That is what scares me too.

I understand that most Muslims are moderate or even secularized and own cameras, stereos, dogs, liquor, but no burqas. And that Mohammed would be just as sick about much of what is being done in his name as Jesus would. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be alarmed about the growth in numbers, influence, wealth, and military capability of the fringe.

But do you understand what I mean when I say that fear of their military capability cannot be resolved by invading or annihilating them?

Apparently we both see that fringe as a deliberate threat to civilization.

I wish people would just talk to each other.

 

[Billy T]

Billy T -

I'm in need of some education here. I thought Los Desaparecidos were in Argentina, killed by the Argentine military (by helicopter drop technique as you mentioned). Is this another group, and if so, was it by the Chilean military with CIA support, or directly by CIA-funded operatives? This is not well known in the US. When did this take place, etc. Is it at all directly related to the Argentine massacre.

I do not know much (practially nothing) about the crimes that happen about the same time when the military ran Argentina. Brazil also was under military rule and similar crimes took palce here. I do not think the CIA was very active in either case. It was the cold war era, and US was happy to see right winger governments supressing the left / social democrate movements, but in Chile the CIA felt it had to act as Alenda was elected, and openly marxist. People "disapeared" in all three countries, but I believe mainly in Chile. I recomend you google etc. Pleas post what you learn.

 

[Mr. G]

No-one outside of the US is very keen on the US. That's the truth, Ruth.

That must be why everyone and their cousin is trying to get into the US illegally.

Ask for a tuition refund, dude.

Don't expect you'll actually put the fear in them that they'll actually give it to you.

 

[redarmy11]

That must be why everyone and their cousin is trying to get into the US illegally.

I'm not. And guess what? Neither is my cousin.

Fuck Pepsi, fuck Coke, fuck Macdonalds and fuck imperialist right-wing Amerikkka, devourer of global culture.

 

[Neildo]

Fuck Pepsi, fuck Coke, fuck Macdonalds and fuck imperialist right-wing Amerikkka, devourer of global culture.

Neil Young - This Note's For You

"Don't want no cash
Don't need no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Pepsi
Ain't singin' for Coke
I don't sing for nobody
Makes me look like a joke
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Miller
Don't sing for Bud
I won't sing for politicians
Ain't singin' for Spuds
This note's for you.

Don't need no cash
Don't want no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

I've got the real thing
I got the real thing, baby
I got the real thing
Yeah, alright."

- N

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I wish people would just talk to each other.

A few years ago one of the big (at the time) U.S. talk show hosts managed to put together a panel consisting of young Israelis and young people from a number of countries with militant Islamic movements. He wanted to do just that, sit back and let them talk to each other. About halfway through, one of the Israelis said what the host had been expressing with his furrowed brow for twenty minutes: There is no way that these people can talk to each other.

It came down to that pre-Reformation worldview that is at the essence of militant, fundamentalist Islam: What happens during our corporeal life doesn't really matter; all that matters is what happens afterward. They simply could not work up any interest in the plight of living human beings.

The Jews of course were just the opposite. Devout, religious Jews believe in heaven, but they don't believe that anyone will go there until some vague point in the future when God decides it's time. Until then we have to all do our best to run things here fairly and compassionately, because this is all a test and God's going to use the test results to decide what kind of afterlife we get to have.

There was no way to establish a dialog between these people. They were literally from different planets. More precisely, one group was from this planet and the other one believed that it was not.

 

[S.A.M.]

A few years ago one of the big (at the time) U.S. talk show hosts managed to put together a panel consisting of young Israelis and young people from a number of countries with militant Islamic movements. He wanted to do just that, sit back and let them talk to each other. About halfway through, one of the Israelis said what the host had been expressing with his furrowed brow for twenty minutes: There is no way that these people can talk to each other.

It came down to that pre-Reformation worldview that is at the essence of militant, fundamentalist Islam: What happens during our corporeal life doesn't really matter; all that matters is what happens afterward. They simply could not work up any interest in the plight of living human beings.

The Jews of course were just the opposite. Devout, religious Jews believe in heaven, but they don't believe that anyone will go there until some vague point in the future when God decides it's time. Until then we have to all do our best to run things here fairly and compassionately, because this is all a test and God's going to use the test results to decide what kind of afterlife we get to have.

There was no way to establish a dialog between these people. They were literally from different planets. More precisely, one group was from this planet and the other one believed that it was not.

This makes no sense to me. The same principles are present in Judaism and Islam. We also believe that after dying, our spiritual energy becomes dormant until Judgement day, when all will be resurrected for their final judgement. We call it Yaum al-Qiyamah.

Until then we have to all do our best to run things here fairly and compassionately, because this is all a test and God's going to use the test results to decide what kind of afterlife we get to have.

Yes our afterlife will be judged based on this.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Devout, religious Jews believe in heaven,

not really, no. not in the sense that most people imagine.

but they don't believe that anyone will go there until some vague point in the future when God decides it's time.

jews believe that all events that have ever happened, that ever will happen, or are happening right now...are happening at the exact same instant.

Until then we have to all do our best to run things here fairly and compassionately, because this is all a test and God's going to use the test results to decide what kind of afterlife we get to have.

this is more spot on.

i understand the nature of your post, but i had to clear a few things up there. :m:

 

[alain]

I find myself disagreeing with Fraggle Rocker for the first time ever.

"I am particularly alarmed by the violent, fundamentalist fringe of Islam"
fundamentalists scare us all, but the Christian fundies have much more power, so my fear is mainly directed towards them

 

[hypewaders]

I haven't caught up with this thread but I'll barge in anyway. Fraggle, should you read John Perkins' books, listen to his interviews and lectures, you might find a timely and topical launchpad for an intruiguing journey of independent discovery: "My God, It's full of spies".

With all due respect, you apparently have been living in virtual ignorance of an entire geopolitical dimension.

Maybe through examining this level of sometimes-dysfunctional international relations, you will find that Islamic terrorists are almost invariably far more oriented to business and politics than they are to any concepts of God. Often they are sheep in shepherd's clothing, but sometimes when the moon is right they grow fangs and claws, and turn on Master.

You might consider the song "Jimmy Cracked Corn" as conforming in meaning to the Bedoin tradition, because they also believe in payback.

You might consider the assymetrical economic war that is now beginning. There are players who know how to make the natives restless on the grandest of historic scales.

You might consider the Shi'a resurgence that is coming. Throughout the wealthy Western Gulf Region, Shia have been thinking more and more about come-uppance.

You might consider that Israel is attempting to keep neighbors de-stabilized at all costs.

You might consider that America's economic underbelly has never become so globally public.

And you might consider that all of these explosive issues are fast converging. This isn't about Islamists being jealous of our strip-malls or strip-clubs. They don't covet our women, or ass (wouldn't be Muslim, would it?). This perfect storm is about the end of a systematically oppressive empire that never became democratically self-aware until it was too late for reforms to save it. I don't think any of us can be sure, but I suspect that those who take a wide-eyed look at what I am alluding to may also admit that the Bottom could drop out soon.

 

[S.A.M.]

not really, no. not in the sense that most people imagine.

How is it different?

jews believe that all events that have ever happened, that ever will happen, or are happening right now...are happening at the exact same instant.

Can you elaborate a little bit?

 

[hypewaders]

There's no time (really).