Why police detectives and the FBI consult psychics

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All Psychics use cold reading.
They differ only in their level of skill at that practise.

They use:
Generalisations. "It happened somewhere near water"
Questions "Did your uncle have something wrong in the chest area?" " "Was he a Military man?"
Searching for reactions: "I'm being given the letters C or G, it could be T. Does Tom mean anything? Or John?"


I'm sure a lot of them don't know they are being fraudulent.
 
I'm sure a lot of them don't know they are being fraudulent.
You'd think one of their visions would inform them that they're being fraudulent or not, wouldn't you?

"I'm getting a vision. It's quite faint. I see... I see an artist of some sort? Do you have a connection to an artist? Do you like art, perhaps? Yes, I thought so. I'm getting a strong sense of a type of artist that you have an ongoing working relationship with... Something to do with money passing hands? I'm getting the letter 'S'? Sam? Scam? Yes! That's it! You're currently paying a scam artist, right? To do psychic readings for you? Yes, I thought as much!"

;)
 
MR MR hes the man... if he cant do it nobody can.!!!

Choose only 1 psychic... make a clame about ther abilities... make the best case you can based on science that this psychic has those abilities.!!!

Change 1 mind today... an tomorrow the wourld will be you'r oyster.!!!

If 81 cases of psychics providing valuable information in crime cases doesn't convince you, nothing will. Obviously the stigma against believing in psychics is so strong for some people that no amount of evidence will ever sway them. They're more concerned about how their beliefs make them look than actually going by the evidence.
 
Your psychic crime show isn't totally fake, just mostly fake.

LOL! And so after confirming that the first five case happened exactly as reported on those shows, what are you basing THIS claim on? What was faked in ANY of those episodes. Have you even watched any of them?
 
All Psychics use cold reading.
They differ only in their level of skill at that practise.

They use:
Generalisations. "It happened somewhere near water"
Questions "Did your uncle have something wrong in the chest area?" " "Was he a Military man?"
Searching for reactions: "I'm being given the letters C or G, it could be T. Does Tom mean anything? Or John?"

You can't do a cold reading when there is no information on the case to hide. How are they going to cold read the identity of the killer, or the method of the murder, or its motive, or the location of the body? Someone would have to know those things and then the psychic would have to cold read that information out of them. In any of the cases listed when was that ever done?
 
If 81 cases of psychics providing valuable information in crime cases doesn't convince you, nothing will. Obviously the stigma against believing in psychics is so strong for some people that no amount of evidence will ever sway them.

What im sayin is... it woud be much more effective to pick 1 from the 81 cases which has the best supportin evidence an make you'r case wit it... or do you thank all 81 cases are equally strong.???
 
LOL! And so after confirming that the first five case happened exactly as reported on those shows...
Now you are just lying. There isn't any more possibility of reasonable discussion if you keep doing that.
Have you even watched any of them?
No, unless I missed it, you didn't link any of the shows. But I have enough morbid curiosity that I'd probably watch one if you found it online for me.
 
You can't do a cold reading when there is no information on the case to hide. How are they going to cold read the identity of the killer, or the method of the murder, or its motive, or the location of the body? Someone would have to know those things and then the psychic would have to cold read that information out of them. In any of the cases listed when was that ever done?
Almost: you can't do cold reading unless you are interviewing someone. So it only applies to a few of the cases, like the mom who killed her daughter. Most of these are shotgunning and taking credit after the fact when in reality they didn't help.

For example, the first case with the two suspects: there was nothing to cold read, since the "psychic" was provided with the suspects to choose from. Somehow you want to give her credit for telling the police things they figured out on their own.
 
What im sayin is... it woud be much more effective to pick 1 from the 81 cases which has the best supportin evidence an make you'r case wit it... or do you thank all 81 cases are equally strong.???

Here's one: the famous John Wayne Gacy case. This is an account that didn't even come from that crime show.

"On the evening of December 11, 1978, Elizabeth Piest went to pick up her 15-year-old son from a Des Plaines pharmacy where he worked after school. She waited for her son, who was finishing his work, inside the store. It was Mrs. Piest’s birthday and the family was waiting for Rob to get home before cutting her cake. While waiting, Rob informed her that there was a contractor outside whom he was going to speak to about getting a job. The boy had been anxious to find a job paying more money. That was the last time Mrs. Piest would see her son alive. He became one of serial murderer John Wayne Gacy’s 33 victims, the majority of which he buried under his home in unincorporated Norwood Park.

Des Plaines police officers strongly suspected that the contractor, John Wayne Gacy, who had a previous sodomy conviction, was responsible for the boy’s disappearance, but they needed evidence. After searching the house on December 13, 1978, which resulted in the confiscation of various items—but, unfortunately, not Robert Piest—the use of a psychic was proposed. It was obvious to at least one of the department officers that both the Piest family and the lieutenant leading the investigation—which included a 24-hour surveillance—were at the point of trying any possible means of uncovering information about the missing youth.

Rolling Meadows, Illinois psychic Carol Broman was suggested to Lt. Joseph R. Kozenczak by an officer whose wife was taking a parapsychology course with her. The decision to use Ms. Broman’s talents was not an easy one to make for several reasons. The lieutenant in charge had never engaged a psychic in an investigation before, and the use of such an individual would be the subject of ridicule by many police, media and public audiences. On the other hand, there was really no other alternative at this point in the investigation. It would appease the family in that it was another means of trying to locate their son, and the fact that Broman wanted no money or publicity for her work was a determining factor. The police chief authorized her involvement in the case.

In order to protect her identity and the lieutenant’s credibility, the police explained that the information from Broman was from an anonymous caller.


"Obviously, all psychically obtained information must be corroborated evidence. If a question is ever raised as to what led the investigator to the evidence, his standard reply is ‘a reliable confidential informant’."10




As arranged by the patrol officer, Lt. Kozenczak met Ms. Broman at 3:00 a.m., December 17, 1978, in her suburban home. In hopes of gaining information on the whereabouts of Robert Piest, the psychic had requested that the officers bring one or two items that were significant and familiar to the boy. The process Broman was using involved psychometry ("extrasensory perception of the history of an object, including facts of the people and events connected with it, usually through handling the object").11Mrs. Piest provided the boy’s camera and radio. Holding it in her hands, Broman found that the camera had more impact than the radio.


The psychic’s commentary that morning, spoken mostly in fragments, became all the more interesting and significant as the police learned more about Gacy and his mode of killing. While the police suspected it, the psychic’s initial comments confirmed their beliefs:


"No, he isn’t alive … The boy isn’t alive … If you don’t mind I’d rather not go through how he died … I’m getting sick to my stomach which means there’s a lot of unpleasantness. Murder is always bad, but sometimes it’s worse than other times and this time it’s one of those … You’re going to find, when you find this boy, six or seven others in the same place, the same area … It’s very much like the case in California where the man, a homosexual, kept the boys and one of them got away and he then dug up all the boys …"12




Considering that at this point during the investigation the police did not really have proof that Gacy was involved in the death of Rob Piest, not to mention multiple deaths, what Broman said seems rather profound. Her reference was to the Henley case, which actually took place in Texas, involving a homosexual killer burying bodies underground. The fact that Gacy performed homosexual acts with his victims and buried the majority of them underground in his crawlspace was not yet known at this point.


There is also the mention of unpleasantness concerning Rob’s death. The police learned later on that Gacy used a very violent "rope trick," involving a rope and a type of wooden dowel rod, to strangle most of his victims. By twisting the rod inserted through a knot in the rope the victims would convulse and die. In addition to the camera and radio, Broman was asked to work with a map of the Chicagoland area including Gacy’s residence. On examining the map she expressed the feeling that there was a large construction site, where equipment was stored, associated with the man:


"There’s some place where they store equipment because it’s not something that’s being built on. It’s where machinery is either stored or parked … And that’s where they all are … It’s a good size area and there might be a small building on it or a fence … there’s a chain link fence around it … You’ve got a sick man … this building, this shed, it’s not large … it’s near water, but there’s yellow pieces of equipment … there’s chain link fencing around it. There’s things covered with plastic sheeting … Not all of the boys are from Des Plaines. There are other suburban areas that they’re missing from …"13




Carol Broman did not know that John Wayne Gacy was a contractor; correlating him to a construction site seems appropriate considering his line of work. The site "where they all are" would, in reality, seem to have been Gacy’s home on Summerdale, but Gacy worked in various establishments throughout the Chicagoland area, the state, and even other states. While the accuracy of the psychic’s statement should obviously be questioned, it is not without reason that she might have been picking up on other locations frequented by Gacy.


The mention of the shed on the property was recalled later when the investigators learned that Gacy used his garage as a type of torture chamber where he engaged in various sex acts with his victims. Once his victims were dead, he frequently covered the bodies with plastic cleaning bags before burying them in the crawlspace. Investigators learned this when they uncovered the graves and, as Carol stated, once identities were made it was learned that the victims were not limited to the Des Plaines area.

Broman also picked up on Gacy’s modus operandi. While the police had several items from his home that might be associated with abnormal sexual acts, they had no way of knowing about the sadistic routine he put his victims through:


"The boy didn’t die easy. I would say none of them did. This guy is sick. I mean he’s really sick … I get the feeling that there were two contacts with this man and the boy was tricked somehow. I don’t quite understand. The guy planned it. It was all planned out. He asked him to come back for some reason or to meet him some place and then he was going to show him around … The man is a sadist … to inflict pain gives him a kick … You’re going to have a nice beautiful case on your hands because this one probably goes back from—I get a feeling—I’m picking up bits and pieces from other youngsters … back five years … It’s not just Des Plaines … I wonder if one of the boys wasn’t from Mt. Prospect … It’s all in that yard—that construction yard. Last summer, the first part of summer … a boy was missing from Des Plaines and what I’m picking up now is that was the last one before this …"14




The above commentary is particularly interesting. Gacy did, in fact, twice go to the drug store where Robert Piest was working. The second time he arrived he claimed it was to pick up a notebook which he had left behind from his earlier visit that day. It was on this second arrival that he convinced Rob to get in his vehicle. The boy was never seen alive again. Autopsy reports indicate that a rope was used on the victims and many had articles, socks, underwear or paper in their throats, supporting Broman’s theory regarding the man’s sadistic tendencies.


Gacy claims that he began his killing spree in 1974, although this has been questioned by many authorities. Since there are still unidentified victims there is a possibility that one of the victims was from Mt. Prospect, Illinois. The other boy from Des Plaines was John Szyc, whose body was found buried under the house on Summerdale. According to Gacy, the victim before Robert Piest was from the town of Elmwood Park. If the construction yard is interpreted to be Gacy’s home, then it makes the statement that the yard is in an unincorporated area. Ironically, Gacy’s house was in unincorporated Norwood Park.

Some of the other information Carol Broman provided concerned the age of Rob’s killer. At her request, the police officers provided her with the name of their suspect. She told them that he was around 40 years old, that he had a scar on his little finger, that he walked with a slight limp and that his license plate had an "M" on it. Gacy was 36 years old, he had a scar on his finger which the police knew from his fingerprint card from a previous arrest, and each of his three vehicles had the initials "PDM" on them for Painting, Decorating and Maintenance, his construction company name.

At one point Broman explained that "they’re," meaning the bodies of the victims, "scattered in a half circle like an arch." Indeed, the bodies were buried around the foundation of Gacy’s house in a semicircular pattern. She also mentioned a close acquaintance of the contractor’s who knew a great deal and who might have witnessed some things. During the course of the investigation, the police did encounter such a youth. While it was never proven, some police department personnel felt that his involvement went beyond just knowing and witnessing things.

According to Broman, other physical things concerning an area or areas associated with Gacy included water, a square gray type structure that was used like an incinerator to burn things, a yellow sign with red letters, and a "Keep Out" sign.

The Piest family was quite aware and pleased that the lieutenant had gone to Carol Broman. On hearing what Ms. Broman said during that first session they were convinced that engaging the use of a psychic was worthwhile. While they were devastated to hear what they feared—Rob’s death—confirmed, they were intent on trying to find his remains.

On December 20, 1978, John Wayne Gacy was arrested. During the course of numerous interviews it was learned that he buried 29 young men on his residential property and four in the Des Plaines area. He stated that Rob’s body had been thrown off the I-55 bridge in Grundy County, Illinois, about 65 miles south of Chicago. Searches were conducted in that vicinity, but due to an extreme amount of snow and ice there were many obstacles and finding the body seemed unlikely. The heavy snow made many of the unpaved roads along the river impassable."
 
Almost: you can't do cold reading unless you are interviewing someone. So it only applies to a few of the cases, like the mom who killed her daughter. Most of these are shotgunning and taking credit after the fact when in reality they didn't help.

For example, the first case with the two suspects: there was nothing to cold read, since the "psychic" was provided with the suspects to choose from. Somehow you want to give her credit for telling the police things they figured out on their own.

No..I want to give credit for her seeing things the police hadn't even told her. The name of the suspect, the scar on his face, and his big belt buckle. Remember, if the psychic's information isn't used in the case that's not her fault. That's the fault of the police. The information turns out to be spot on, even though the police may not have used it. But in this case they did. They brought him back in at Nancy's insistence after he passed a polygraph and was cleared.
 
Again: your claim, not mine. You didn't initially claim these were documentaries, you just said "crime shows". "Amish Mafia" is a "crime show". And it is totally fake. Your psychic crime show isn't totally fake, just mostly fake.


Here's my initial challenge:

"Prove it then. Show us one TV crime documentary that was claimed to be true that was totally fabricated."
 
Here's my initial challenge:

"Prove it then. Show us one TV crime documentary that was claimed to be true that was totally fabricated."
Back up some: origin made the initial point, then Balerion amplified it. Neither of them used the word "documentary" and it isnt relevant here: you inserted the word because it implies to you some factual responsibility, which doesn't exist, whether a show is a documentary or not.

In addition, you said "totally fabricated" and while I found one that was, that wasn't part of the claim: that's just you goalpost shifting.
 
No..I want to give credit for her seeing things the police hadn't even told her. The name of the suspect....
You cannot prove they didn't tell her (or she didn't read in the newspaper) the name of the suspect and it is illogical to believe they would hide information from her while trying to get her help.
 
Back up some: origin made the initial point, then Balerion amplified it. Neither of them used the word "documentary" and itvisnt relevant here: you inserted the word because it implies to you some factual responsibility, which doesn't exist, whether a show is a documentary or not.

In addition, you said "totally fabricated" and while I found one that was, that wasn't part of the claim: that's just you goalpost shifting.

Nope..that's the only record of me making a challenge to provide examples of something. That you failed to meet it and tried to wiggle around it isn't my fault.
 
Here's one: the famous John Wayne Gacy case....
Could you please highlight for me where and how it says the psychic helped with the investigation. All I see is a psychic hung around and made a truckload of predictions, some turning out to be true and some not, but none that had any actual impact on the investigation.
 
Nope..that's the only record of me making a challenge to provide examples of something. That you failed to meet it and tried to wiggle around it isn't my fault.
[Shrug] It's your thread and claim - if you want it that way, you can have it. You believe and we don't and issuing a badly constructed challenge doesn't have any impact on either of our positions and certainly doesn't make the inaccuracies and embellishments in the show go away.
 
You cannot prove they didn't tell her (or she didn't read in the newspaper) the name of the suspect and it is illogical to believe they would hide information from her while trying to get her help.

Here's a quote from you on this exact point:

"You made that up. I won't say you are lying because I think you simply don't have a good grasp of reality. The quote you posted from my source said "Weber wasn't told before hand that Reese was a suspect." Not told that he was a suspect isn't the same as being unaware of his existence."

Sorry but that is what the sources say. They say Nancy Weber honed in on John Reese's name, his appearance, and his belt buckle. If you have some evidence that this did not happen let's see it. If not, then oh well. Ya got nothing.
 
Could you please highlight for me where and how it says the psychic helped with the investigation. All I see is a psychic hung around and made a truckload of predictions, some turning out to be true and some not, but none that had any actual impact on the investigation.

Could you please highlight where the psychic was wrong in her depiction of the crime and of John Wayne Gacy. Remember, she had no information on Gacy or the murders whatsoever. That's a pretty impressive confirmation I'd say.
 
Here's a quote from you on this exact point:

"You made that up. I won't say you are lying because I think you simply don't have a good grasp of reality. The quote you posted from my source said "Weber wasn't told before hand that Reese was a suspect." Not told that he was a suspect isn't the same as being unaware of his existence."

Sorry but that is what the sources say. They say Nancy Weber honed in on John Reese's name, his appearance, and his belt buckle. If you have some evidence that this did not happen let's see it. If not, then oh well. Ya got nothing.
Yes, and? That doesn't contradict what I said. Are you having more reading comprehension issues?

You are dodging: the most likely scenario is that they didn't have to tell her the suspect's name because she already knew.

In EITHER case, that is meant to IMPLY she didn't know, but it doesn't even explicitly STATE much less PROVE it.
 
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