Why isn't unconditional love enough?

[Onefinity]

I am of the belief that the core message of Jesus is very simple: love, unconditionally. That's not just love someONE or someTHING unconditionally, but more: to BE love. Easy to say, not so easy to do. The Christians that I say this to agree with the love part, but most of them also say that I am missing the "salvation" part of the picture.

Now, I am of the belief that by loving unconditionally, by being love, then one is immediately in good graces with any Creator that would be worthy of the name, and that there is no need to read the Bible, attend any church, or worry about eternity, because one is already living in an eternal connection, no longer fearing death, and thereby living life fully.

However, just so that I understand the salvation part (and please don't refer me to the text, I want YOU to explain it to me in your own words, 5th grade level please), I would like someone to explain why the concept of salvation comes into play. That is, why is unconditional love - a manner of living - OUTWEIGHED by the need to ask Jesus Christ for salvation?

Specifically, I don't yet understand what it means that "He died for our sins." I mean, there was a prophet, Jesus - who may or may not have been God's son, and he set a good example of this way of life of unconditional love, and that's a good message. Now, "He died for our sins"? What does that mean? And if he died in 28 A.D. or thereabouts, what does it mean to me that "He died for our sins"? How can he die for my sins? Aside from being an educational memory for civilization, what is the premise for an ongoing need for "salvation"?

I personally believe that if Jesus is a presence in the cosmos today, that he cares much more that I am living love unconditionally than whether I am acknowledging his services from 2,000 years ago, or whether I ask for salvation or not. And I certainly don't think he cares about Heaven or Hell, but rather that he recognizes that people live heaven when they are loving unconditionally, and that they are living hell when not, and that's all we need to know

Can someone enlighten me?

 

[Lori_7]

God is the source of unconditional love, and Jesus was God in the flesh. The Holy Spirit manifests through people all the time, with His intentions always being true love. The difference is whether you consider yourself and your works, or the Spirit, as your salvation. Because it's clear that unconditional love is no easy task for the average human. You have to recognize this systemic flaw in humans...this genetic defect called sin...to warrant the need for salvation in the first place.

 

[ellion]

was it not the conditions of being sinless and holy that is in question? how can there be unconditional love when there is conditions of acceptabilty?
it is perverse to say i love unconditionally but only if these conditions are met.

 

[Joeman]

I am of the belief that the core message of Jesus is very simple: love, unconditionally. That's not just love someONE or someTHING unconditionally, but more: to BE love. Easy to say, not so easy to do.

Jesus in the synoptics is different from Jesus in Gospel of John. I will speak about the synoptic, which is more historical.

Jesus actually said love your neighbor AS yourself - treat your neighbor the same way as how you would treat yourself. Very unrealistic. Interestingly he said the 2nd greatest commandment is JUST LIKE THE FIRST. That means he equates loving people as loving God, almost.

The Christians that I say this to agree with the love part, but most of them also say that I am missing the "salvation" part of the picture.

The salvation part is pure invention of Paul. Jesus did talk about getting "saved", but I don't think he meant the instant karma like what you see on TV. I believe Jesus is talking about getting saved from the tribulation that was imminent in his disciple's life time.

 

[Joeman]

Today most Christians would argue that it is impossible to love unconditionally unless you acknowledge the divinity of Christ. The ability to love is gift from God and its source is the holy spirit.

 

[Light Travelling]

Jesus actually said love your neighbor AS yourself - treat your neighbor the same way as how you would treat yourself. Very unrealistic. Interestingly he said the 2nd greatest commandment is JUST LIKE THE FIRST. That means he equates loving people as loving God, almost.
.

Ahh but the secret is that your neighbour IS yourself, that God IS your neighbour and that God IS yourself. (there is no 'almost ' about it).

This is a difficult concept, but simply grasping the concept is not enough. The experiential realisation of this rather than the intellectual acceptance of it, is what is termed as enlightenment. Atman is Brahman as the Hindu's would say (the real self and the divine are one and the same ).

To put it in more biblical terms
"The father is in the son, as the son is in you"
"the secret is that christ is inside you"
"when you feed a hungry man you are actually feeding god"

I may be paraphrasing a bit here, but I'm sure you know the relevant parts. I can report back with chapter and verse if I must.

 

[Lori_7]

was it not the conditions of being sinless and holy that is in question? how can there be unconditional love when there is conditions of acceptabilty?
it is perverse to say i love unconditionally but only if these conditions are met.

That's not right. His love is entirely unconditional, even upon whether you accept it or not. No one is holy and sinless....except Jesus. Not in this lifetime anyway.

 

[ellion]

His love is entirely unconditional, even upon whether you accept it or not.

you seem to have christian beliefs. do you also then belief that god will punish sinners or those who do not accept jesus as their saviour, and condemn them to the fire? for this is not an act of unconditioanl love in any sense that i understand love without conditions.

 

[Quantum Quack]

actually I tend to think that if one loves God without condition one is emulating the Christ.

If one can forgive God and love him unconditionally then your reality is optimised.

For the atheist:

Pantheism is primarilly about unconditional love for the universe and everything within it and everything that happens within it......if the title of God is a problem.
What this leads to is unconditional acceptance of everything. It does not necessarilly imply passivity though, but acceptance in the first premise.
[our natures as human are also a part of this universe]
Acceptance of human nature is a very important part of unconditional love.
IMO
BTW ...nice thread Onefinity

edit:
It could also be contended that unconditionality is essential to percieve an objective truth. Thus truth is unconditional as it is only conditions we place upon the truth that make a falsehood

 

[Quantum Quack]

an interesting question to ask yourself is :
What conditions am I placing on my being loved by others?

Once you delve deep enough you get an idea of unconditionality.
If your being loved is conditional then so to is your love for others....
"If you love me then you would do.....such and such" is a statement of conditionality [expectation]

 

[Quantum Quack]

just as a possibly interesting asided:

It has been recognised by physics that at a quantum level the observer will influence the material being observed.
It just shows you how subtle conditionality can be. If observation at a quantum level was truely unconditional then no influence by the observer would occur......just a thought....
Just shows you how difficult unconditionality is to achieve....

 

[Light Travelling]

However, just so that I understand the salvation part (and please don't refer me to the text, I want YOU to explain it to me in your own words, 5th grade level please), I would like someone to explain why the concept of salvation comes into play. That is, why is unconditional love - a manner of living - OUTWEIGHED by the need to ask Jesus Christ for salvation?

Specifically, I don't yet understand what it means that "He died for our sins." I mean, there was a prophet, Jesus - who may or may not have been God's son, and he set a good example of this way of life of unconditional love, and that's a good message. Now, "He died for our sins"? What does that mean? And if he died in 28 A.D. or thereabouts, what does it mean to me that "He died for our sins"? How can he die for my sins? Aside from being an educational memory for civilization, what is the premise for an ongoing need for "salvation"? ?

It is the confusion of the term christ and Jesus that is confusing you here.

Salvation comes through christ that is true. But that is not the same as saying salvation comes through Jesus. The term christ refers to our higher self, also called our real self or higher consciousness. This christ resides in all of us and that is what Jesus actually taught. It is through connecting with and realising this christ within (higher self) that salvation is acheived. Salvation being the end to the cycle of reincarnations in this world. Remember that early christians believed in reincarnation before orthodoxy stamped it out.

The problem is that for hundreds of years the leaders and teachers of the christian church have not properly understood the nature of the christ, and so for them christ has become something that only Jesus has - another name for god. They have set Jesus up as a god above us, but he was one of us who fully realised his christ on earth, and this is what he taught. Re-read the new testament with all this in mind and you will see what I mean.

Can someone enlighten me?

BTW Noone can enlighten you. You have to enlighten yourself. (but others may help you along the way).


Good Luck

 

[water]

As I've read through this thread, I became aware of the hopelessness of asking such questions. One gets many answers -- how is one to tell which one is the right one?


* * *

Onefinity,

I am of the belief that the core message of Jesus is very simple: love, unconditionally. That's not just love someONE or someTHING unconditionally, but more: to BE love. Easy to say, not so easy to do. The Christians that I say this to agree with the love part, but most of them also say that I am missing the "salvation" part of the picture.

Now, I am of the belief that by loving unconditionally, by being love, then one is immediately in good graces with any Creator that would be worthy of the name, and that there is no need to read the Bible, attend any church, or worry about eternity, because one is already living in an eternal connection, no longer fearing death, and thereby living life fully.

I think you are overestimating the human power to love.

You say one is to love unconditionally. But to what end?

It may give you a nice lovey-dovey feel to "be love". But ask yourself: How consistently can you do that? It certainly works for some time. But sooner or later, you tire of it, or it becomes a mere habit.

Humans have to know the purpose of why they do something, or they won't do it, or be slack at it. And this purpose has to be such that the activity performed upon it will be in adequate relation to it.
Now, what is the adequate purpose of loving, according to you?

However, just so that I understand the salvation part (and please don't refer me to the text, I want YOU to explain it to me in your own words, 5th grade level please), I would like someone to explain why the concept of salvation comes into play. That is, why is unconditional love - a manner of living - OUTWEIGHED by the need to ask Jesus Christ for salvation?

Note that I am not a Christian, so my reply may differ from what Christians would say to this topic.

To put it in your terms -- "Why is unconditional love - a manner of living - OUTWEIGHED by the need to ask Jesus Christ for salvation?"
Here's your answer: Unconditional love -- "Easy to say, not so easy to do." It is very, very hard to love unconditionally, and be consistent in such a love.

Do you love me? Unconditionally?
Hard to say. What do I get so see from this love of yours?

Specifically, I don't yet understand what it means that "He died for our sins."

You hold such a high ideal of how a human should live -- by loving unconditionally, by "being love" -- but you are not living up to it.
Unless you devalue and somehow reduce the meaning of "unconditional love" so that whatever you do fits the label "unconditional love".

You are not living up to that ideal of unconditional love, so you can't expect that the effect of your actions were the same as if you had lived up to that ideal.

So now what? You hold a high ideal that you are not able to live consistently.
How do you answer, how do you account or the lack of unconditional love, how do you account for not "being love" 24/7?

Will you tell all those people you have failed to love unconditionally, "Sorry, but I'm just a fallible human"? How are they to reconcile your high ideal and your slack performance? Why should they have understanding for your failings? Why should they forgive you? Note that they are just as fallible as you, so in the end, there is a shortage of love and forgiveness among people -- and they are preaching ideals they cannot live. How is this to be acocunted for?

I mean, there was a prophet, Jesus - who may or may not have been God's son, and he set a good example of this way of life of unconditional love, and that's a good message. Now, "He died for our sins"? What does that mean? And if he died in 28 A.D. or thereabouts, what does it mean to me that "He died for our sins"? How can he die for my sins? Aside from being an educational memory for civilization, what is the premise for an ongoing need for "salvation"?

Make an effort to try to understand the greatness of God's power. He created you, and it is up to Him to redeem you, to save you. He ordained it so. You are merely the recipient of God's grace, you can't earn it.
Your good works, not even your best tries at unconditional love cannot save you.
And maybe now, you don't see a need for salvation. But once you will witness the power of your failings, and once you will have insight into how it could be if those failings weren't there -- then you will understand the need for salvation.
You will beg God to protect you from the effects of your sins, as well as from the effects of the sins of other people.

I personally believe that if Jesus is a presence in the cosmos today, that he cares much more that I am living love unconditionally than whether I am acknowledging his services from 2,000 years ago, or whether I ask for salvation or not. And I certainly don't think he cares about Heaven or Hell, but rather that he recognizes that people live heaven when they are loving unconditionally, and that they are living hell when not, and that's all we need to know

This is the Jesus of the hippies you are talking about. Not the Jesus of the Bible.


* * *


ellion,

was it not the conditions of being sinless and holy that is in question? how can there be unconditional love when there is conditions of acceptabilty?
it is perverse to say i love unconditionally but only if these conditions are met.

Hence Jesus made up for humankind's lacks.
God doesn't tolerate sin, and because He loves His people, He provided a way for them to be cleansed of their sins.


* * *


Lori_7,

That's not right. His love is entirely unconditional, even upon whether you accept it or not.

How do you answer for Esau's case?

Mal. 1:2-3
"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Rom. 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


* * *

ellion,

you seem to have christian beliefs. do you also then belief that god will punish sinners or those who do not accept jesus as their saviour, and condemn them to the fire? for this is not an act of unconditioanl love in any sense that i understand love without conditions.

Understand that God is the sovereign Creator and Ruler. He decided how Creation is to be, in all its aspects. He set the rules and standards. The Creation is conditioned by God. There is no way around this.

For God to save all, without distinction, eventually means that He is *not* the Creator and sovereign Ruler.


* * *

Quantum Quack,

actually I tend to think that if one loves God without condition one is emulating the Christ.

How do you think that one can love God?
How can one begin to love God?

If one can forgive God and love him unconditionally then your reality is optimised.

Forgive God for what?


I would truly like to hear your answers to these questions.



* * *


Light Travelling,

Good Luck

He. Does luck exist in a universe where there is perfect governance?

 

[Onefinity]

Water: a few things....

1. By definition, an ideal is not something we are, but something that helps define what we are. An authentic reaching toward the ideal, a conscience that is harmonious with the ideal, even the occasional brilliant flash of unconditional love amidst a field of conditional humanity - these are all things that humans are capable of. Getting society to evolve in directions that foster an increase in these things is, of course, another aspect of reaching for the ideal. We do live in a culture that makes it difficult. And yet hope lives on.

2. Resorting to the "authority of God" will not help in this discussion. We all have equal and direct access to the source. No one is priviliged to tell another the true nature of Jesus Christ or of God. Whether it is a 6 year old or a Biblical scholar or a Born-again evangelist, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or an atheist, they all have direct accees to the source. You may not believe this, but it is easy to prove, and not possible to disprove.

 

[Yorda]

1. By definition, an ideal is not something we are, but something that helps define what we are.

In reality, we are what we want to be. What "think" we are, right now, is just an illusion coming from our body. For example, all people want perfection, so our true nature is perfection. The body is not me, since it makes me do things that are in contradiction with my own will (goal).

"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

God hated Esau because He loved him. Loveful hatred. Like the evil which makes us understand good.

---

Do not argue endlessly about what is right and wrong. Instead, do the right thing.

 

[water]

Onefinity,

1. By definition, an ideal is not something we are, but something that helps define what we are. An authentic reaching toward the ideal, a conscience that is harmonious with the ideal, even the occasional brilliant flash of unconditional love amidst a field of conditional humanity - these are all things that humans are capable of. Getting society to evolve in directions that foster an increase in these things is, of course, another aspect of reaching for the ideal. We do live in a culture that makes it difficult. And yet hope lives on.

And? This is not enough.

2. Resorting to the "authority of God" will not help in this discussion.

????
If you are in any way talking about God, you must "resort" to His authority, otherwise, you're just strawmanning.

We all have equal and direct access to the source.

What source? God? The Bible?

Even if -- it remains:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No one is priviliged to tell another the true nature of Jesus Christ or of God.

Why have you posted this thread then? You expected someone to "enlighten" you about salvation -- you have in fact expected someone to tell you about the true nature of Jesus and God. But then you say no one is privileged to do so.

Whether it is a 6 year old or a Biblical scholar or a Born-again evangelist, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or an atheist, they all have direct accees to the source. You may not believe this, but it is easy to prove, and not possible to disprove.

What is easy to prove?


* * *


Yorda,

God hated Esau because He loved him. Loveful hatred. Like the evil which makes us understand good.

No no no, Yorda. My mind is not twisted to embrace illogicisms.

Do not argue endlessly about what is right and wrong. Instead, do the right thing.

Thank you, God.

 

[Yorda]

No no no, Yorda. My mind is not twisted to embrace illogicisms.

Why nut? It's not illogical at all. And illogical things are not illogical.

Thank you, God.

Did God say that to you? Probably not yet, otherwise you would obey.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Quantum Quack,

“ actually I tend to think that if one loves God without condition one is emulating the Christ. ”

How do you think that one can love God?
How can one begin to love God?

“ If one can forgive God and love him unconditionally then your reality is optimised. ”

Forgive God for what?


I would truly like to hear your answers to these questions.

Water,

Most people live life on condition that it brings them happiness, and in doing so are constantly disappointed. A victum consciousness evolves and it is only the conditions we place upon our existence that creates this state.
Most people when considering God do so with implied conditions. They love God because of their desire for reward ~heaven, or the desire for good karma in their earthly existence. Or because of their fear of death and even their fear of life itself.
All these conditions that are placed on their relationship with God lead to false expectation and ultimately unhappiness and suffering.

We even place conditions on Gods love which is even a greater crime because this falsley represents how another loves. Projecting our conditionality on to another renders the love of that other impotent and frustrated.

By forgiving God for the terrible things we give him responsibilty for whether he is responsible or not is to relinquish the conditions we have placed on our love for him. Thus allowing the truth of our love to flow with out the distortion of conditions frustrating us. [mine and his]

A bit like forgiving the planet Earth for having an earth quake killing 160,000 persons...seems silly to think we need to forgive the planet hey?

Most important though is that by conditionalising the unconditional love of someone else with our own conditions renders that love impossible to feel, thus our conditions placed atificially upon the love of someone else only renders the love of someone else in a constant state of frustration. In other words your wouldn't know Gods love no matter how hard you try to know his love simply because he can not love under those conditions. [ and remain true to himself]

 

[superluminal]

I am sooo angry. The other day, it rained, and my garden got flooded. I hate the earth. I kicked it. Then I felt bad. I told the earth it was ok, just DON'T DO IT AGAIN!.

 

[Quantum Quack]

ha..............