Why I am sinner ?

[Saint]

In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

 

[okinrus]

If someone really doesn't realize that they are doing wrong, then I'm don't see God condemning them. However all sin even unintentional will affect yourself and others.

Is that Just/Fair ?

Continuing sinning while knowing that it is a sin would not give God any other choice. There is no way that he can forcebly make someone stop sinning without taking away their freewill. There is no way that he can wash someone of sin unless if they allow him to wash them. I guess this is logical but life's a real struggle

 

[everneo]

Saint :

if you can neutralize sin with good then for every 2 good things you did, you are allowed to do one sin and remain free of net sin and will have good credit. we don't need bible to learn this arithmatic. unfortunately this type of neutralization is not available. so reap whatever you sow.

 

[Cris]

Saint,

Why I am sinner ?

You aren’t. To sin means to disobey God, and it isn’t possible to disobey something that doesn’t exist. If by sin you mean you have broken a moral code to which you agree then that is a different issue.

In practical terms if you do something that is clearly wrong then you have little choice but to live with the often unpleasant consequences and stressful feelings of guilt.

What religions offer and what makes them so attractive, especially Christianity, is a way to escape those feelings. By Christianity offering a promise of salvation many find that they can come to terms with their immorality. There is also an additional encouragement to seek salvation which is not just the comfort of escaping your responsibilities but the terror and threat of hell that Christianity insists will be your fate if you do not conform to their rules.

This complex arrangement of dependence on guilt feelings combined with the authoritarian and tyrannical terror threats, has allowed Christianity to maintain significant political and social control for millennia over a largely ignorant mass.

Unfortunately such a system where people can feel forgiven does not necessarily discourage them from committing further crimes since they know they can always seek forgiveness again. In this sense Christianity itself is a basically immoral system.

A moral system would be one where people are encouraged to take full responsibility for their own actions and where they must face the consequences of bad choices, knowing they have no exit.

 

[Cris]

Everneo,

if you can neutralize sin with good then for every 2 good things you did, you are allowed to do one sin and remain free of net sin and will have good credit. we don't need bible to learn this arithmetic.

Of course the act of murdering just one person can never be fully repaid by say saving the lives of many others. The immoral act is done; it is out there and can never be taken back. One must live with it, or perhaps seek therapy if it is too difficult.

The artificial suppression of guilt by believing in an imaginative fictional supernatural solution is simply self-delusion and ultimately destructive within a larger social framework.

 

[everneo]

Cris,

ofcourse, the pun was not explicit in my previous post . btw, i ended with 'reap what you sow'. thats what i believe. no escape but God may give strength to bear the burden.

 

[Agent Smith]

Sin isnt like a "I do agood deed, that means i can erase 1 sin i did". When you realize your a sinner, then you can acccept that you arent perfect. If you realize you arent perfect than you can accept that God is superior to us and therefore you will try listen to Gods statuets. IF you ask God to forgive you, you are forgiven, but to ask for forgivness isnt just like saying "good night", y ou need to ask forgiveness from the heart.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Saint
In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

How do you know you are a sinner?
In what way does the bible condemn "you" as a sinner?
What do you think being a sinner is?

I ask these questions to get a better understanding of your concern.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris

You aren’t. To sin means to disobey God, and it isn’t possible to disobey something that doesn’t exist.

How do you know God doesn't exist?

If by sin you mean you have broken a moral code to which you agree then that is a different issue.

Ahh thats nice, one can absolve oneself of all wrong doing by simply changing ones moral code.

What religions offer and what makes them so attractive, especially Christianity, is a way to escape those feelings.

Institutions.......eh!

This complex arrangement of dependence on guilt feelings combined with the authoritarian and tyrannical terror threats, has allowed Christianity to maintain significant political and social control for millennia over a largely ignorant mass.

Institutions are like that, and now christianity is on the wane, it's time for the rougue scientists to take over the riegns. Same mentality, different garbs/institution.

In this sense Christianity itself is a basically immoral system.

There is no immorality in the teaching of Jesus, only in people themselves.
The question is, does christianity reflect the teaching of Jesus?

A moral system would be one where people are encouraged to take full responsibility for their own actions and where they must face the consequences of bad choices, knowing they have no exit.

People do that anyway, it is natural. People look for ways out of any type of suffering, and their ways fall into whatever type of mentality they have.
Stronger people have the capacity to exploit weaker people, so they will concoct a religion based loosely on some scripture. This is not to be confused with the scripture itself.
But i'm sure you will anyway!

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

You aren’t. To sin means to disobey God, and it isn’t possible to disobey something that doesn’t exist.

How do you know God doesn't exist?

The God concept is a fantasy. Why assume such a baseless fantasy can be real?

If by sin you mean you have broken a moral code to which you agree then that is a different issue.

Ahh thats nice, one can absolve oneself of all wrong doing by simply changing ones moral code.

Only if they practiced your form of cynical lifestyle. But why would someone change to a different moral code if they had found one to which they agreed? Did you simply misunderstand what I said?

Institutions are like that, and now christianity is on the wane, it's time for the rougue scientists to take over the riegns. Same mentality, different garbs/institution.

Why rogue scientists? Science is knowledge that is freely available to everyone. The difference between science and religion is that science is based on reality instead of fantasies. Isn’t basing a lifestyle on reality likely to be more productive and enjoyable?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
The God concept is a fantasy. Why assume such a baseless fantasy can be real?

Thanks for your opinion.
Could you please answer the question?

[/quote]Did you simply misunderstand what I said?[/quote]

LOL!!!
Sure, someone can superficially change their moral codes, but morals are far more integrated and imbedded within the human psyche, you seem to give credit for.
When our backs are against the wall we always go to what we know best, this is the real moral code.

Either I simply misunderstood what you said, or you misunderstand the depth of the subject of morality, and simplified it to a superficial choice we can make when we like.

Why rogue scientists? Science is knowledge that is freely available to everyone.

Yes, science is knowledge, but scientists are human.

The difference between science and religion is that science is based on reality instead of fantasies. Isn’t basing a lifestyle on reality likely to be more productive and enjoyable?

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
--Albert Einstein



Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
--Albert Einstein

Quoting Einstein on religion has some risks since he did not hold conventional views, although we could debate I suppose what is conventional. His view of religion has been described as cosmic religion, that sense of awe that is revealed through scientific discovery.

Throughout his life he stated a disbelief in a personal god and to the end he maintained that position -

Einstein's Last Thoughts

Einstein: the life and times by Ronald W. Clark, World Pub. Co., NY, 1971, p. 622

Just as he dotted the i's and crossed the t's of his scientific beliefs during the last year or so of his life, so did he recapitulate his religious convictions. To Dr. Douglas he stated: "If I were not a Jew I would be a Quaker." And in an interview with Professor William Hermanns, he said: "I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar."

And what did Einstein really mean when he said was religious –

The following paragraph is the conclusion to the essay "The World as I See It," which is taken from the abridged edition of Einstein's book bearing the same title. In the abridged edition (Philosophical Library, New York, 1949), the essay appears on pp. 1-5.

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.

I don’t know if that agrees with how you see religion, I suspect not entirely, if at all. I think we agree on the foolishness of religious institutions, but disagree on the nature of religion, or perhaps on the perceptions of what people mean when they use the word.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Cris
I don’t know if that agrees with how you see religion, I suspect not entirely, if at all.

My understanding of religion is closer to Einsteins, than that of a fundamentalist.
We are all different, in our spiritual/mental make up. Einstein, being a scientist, could not simply accept a personal god because he could not see one, such was his nature.
But he could not deny that there could possibly be a "mind" behind the awe-full mystery. He did not easily accept that the universe "came about by chance" hence his quote, "God does not play dice."
Einstein sought God through science, and was forced by his own ethics to come to his conclusions. That is all anyone can do who is basically honest and sincere.

I think we agree on the foolishness of religious institutions, but disagree on the nature of religion, or perhaps on the perceptions of what people mean when they use the word.

You could well be correct in your thoughts.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Zero]

Jan, the phrase "God does not play dice with the universe" is interpreted mostly, within the context, to mean "everything is ordered and everything follows a certain set of rules and is predictable".

Of course, now we know that his attempts to disprove Heisenberg were futile. He did waste a good many years to the task.

Jan, there is no reason to believe in a god if there's absolutely no physical evidence he exists. Meet the mighty invisible undetectable dragon in my dorm room. Or the giant purple pink polka dotted squid who sits around playing Beethoven on a magical piano, who is also mighty and invisible and undetectable in every way.

 

[Zero]

And btw, you ARE a sinner! We're all sinners! We must seek forgiveness of the Purple Potato God!

 

[Cris]

Jan,

The God concept is a fantasy. Why assume such a baseless fantasy can be real?

Thanks for your opinion.
Could you please answer the question?

You mean ”How do you know God doesn't exist?”

But he does exist as a fantasy in the minds of many people. But really the question is ambiguous and cannot be answered intelligently.

As I have said elsewhere there are some 4200 religions in the world and Christianity has some 33,000 sects and cults who all define God differently.

It is because there is no factual basis for such ideas that people feel free to imagine a god however they wish and of course claim their personal ideas as the only truth.

Can you nail down a single definition of a god to which everyone could agree, and if so then we could start a search to see if such a thing does or does not exist. Until we can agree what is meant by “God” then any attempt to prove that the object of a dream doesn’t exist is more than a foolish activity.

In the mind of Einstein and from pantheism or from Spinoza, and to some extent from Deism, God is nature or the universe. Does nature have intelligence or is it simply recognition of supreme order? Clearly, to my mind, and I suspect to yours as well, the universe does exist, under such conditions I could hardly say God does not exist.

So for now my assertion that the concept of god is really only a fantasy is essentially true. That one of the myriad variations of this fantasy might map to a reality is something we cannot know until someone shows observable and testable facts.

But the question of how one knows that God does not exist is unanswerable because it is a meaningless question.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

But he could not deny that there could possibly be a "mind" behind the awe-full mystery. He did not easily accept that the universe "came about by chance" hence his quote, "God does not play dice."

The quote in context was part of a discussion concerning quantum mechanics that be believed could not be true. He was proved wrong. And his reference to God like many of his references was not to a superior mind but to the order and harmony that was the universe.

The phrase is picked on frequently by those who perceive the concept of God as being a father figure or superior intellect, but that was never what Einstein meant. There was never a “mind” behind the awful mystery.

 

[Saint]

Re: Re: Why I am sinner ?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
How do you know you are a sinner?
In what way does the bible condemn "you" as a sinner?
What do you think being a sinner is?

I ask these questions to get a better understanding of your concern.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Sin means something immoral, such as hatred, slander, lying etc.
I did that , so i am sinner.
Al most everywhere in The bible , it condemns me as sinner, pitiful, need pardon, or else i must go to hell.

 

[Cris]

Saint,

Sin means something immoral, such as hatred, slander, lying etc.
I did that , so i am sinner.
Al most everywhere in The bible , it condemns me as sinner, pitiful, need pardon, or else i must go to hell.

So do you find it is wrong to sin because it is immoral, or because it makes you fearful of hell.

Or in other words do you think your religion encourages you not to sin, because that is the right thing to do, or becuase you will be punished in hell?

 

[Saint]

it depends on which religion.
for buddhism, it talks about cause-and-effect, do bad get bad,do good get good. Even go to hell, you'll escape one day after the due punishment.

but christianity is cruel, the reason of going to hell is disbelieving in jesus.