Why free will is impossible

Me-Ki-Gal, "Humans live by there social structure that dictates the actions of humans by the time slot in history that is afforded to them."

Predetermination? Nothing you can do about it? The actions you take make no difference? You are a slave? Because there are causes for actions you just watch those causes coming and you are forced to let them happen? Your choices are an illusion? So why would you ever bother making them if you know that? Rebel. Make no choices today. Show that nasty old causal chain who is boss. Treat it with the disrespect it deserves for pushing you around so much.

What do you think? Oh, I forgot there for a second. Those aren't real thoughts, you are a clock. They are an illusion.
 
Regular0ldguy said:
I did say "before it gets too close". So I wasn't positing a fight or flight scenario. Sure, I am aware of reflex and our "lizard brain" (which I warned my kid about using during his early teens-telling him to be aware of the prehistoric part of his brain trying to take over and make him act like a fool-this gave him a reflective skill that benefited him greatly).

Another fun anecdote you reminded me of. When I was a kid, I noticed when I was very young I was prone to panic and freezing to the point of inaction. I immediately recognized that losing voluntary control in cases of danger was itself extremely dangerous, not to mention embarrassing as hell. So being aware of that tendency, I worked on it until I had control over that little tendency and eliminated its influence. There after I became very cool "under fire" and became a leader. I saw the snake coming and I killed it (or replaced it with a different and more useful snake).
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See you are saying it right there . The chain of events and how you conveyed them to your child as a benefit . Your child is benefactor of your methodical clock work of advancement. It is for betterment . The ultimate allusive goals of human productivity . We just about all work to the same end .
I respect you for being a leader Bro. I respect you for teaching your child leadership . Did you really have a choice ? You have to do it, you have no choice . It is your child. I do the same for my child
 
Regular0ldguy said:
Me-Ki-Gal, "Humans live by there social structure that dictates the actions of humans by the time slot in history that is afforded to them."

Predetermination? Nothing you can do about it? The actions you take make no difference? You are a slave? Because there are causes for actions you just watch those causes coming and you are forced to let them happen? Your choices are an illusion? So why would you ever bother making them if you know that? Rebel. Make no choices today. Show that nasty old causal chain who is boss. Treat it with the disrespect it deserves for pushing you around so much.

What do you think? Oh, I forgot there for a second. Those aren't real thoughts, you are a clock. They are an illusion.
Click to expand...

Your pretty good . That I could believe what you say would make my day. I am a slave . If I was to change my routine would make no difference for your destiny will run you down and torches you into submission . My whole existence is in a state of rebellion. "To Be Equal" that is the meaning of my name . To find freedom is the goal . So far I am not doing that well . I am a lizard brain person I guess . That great serpent of the deep that creeps. Yet if I fulfill my goals and find my freedom the sad part is the story was already written long ago. So many fables so many stories . About the kings men sitting at the tables. Your a leader, you should be able to relate. We do what we have to do. If I was not to the advancement would slow down and I can't have that for the race is not to the strong nor the swift , but chance happens to us all . Circumstance is what it will be. If we rise up do we do it cause we have a choice . I think we do it cause we have no choice . We have to do it and do it in good conscience

Anyway I am glad you have found some freedom . It is the American way to be free
 
Regular0ldguy said:
The actions you take make no difference?
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If there no free will, it would not follow that actions have no consequences. A butterfly beating its wings can be a "but for" cause of a storm halfway around the world weeks later. "But for" the butterfly, the storm would not have formed. Assuming butterflies have no free will, the action of beating its wings still sets trillions of molecules in the air on new trajectories, and they in turn affect the trajectories of countless others.

Even without agency, the world is actually different because of the actions of non-agents from what it would be in the absence of those actions.

Regular0ldguy said:
Your choices are an illusion? So why would you ever bother making them if you know that?
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You don't and that's the point. If there is no free will, you don't really make choices. As noted though actions still have consequences and you brain is programmed to make you do certain things like "stay alive." Whether one believes in free will or not, it makes sense to continue one's life. In one case you do so because you feel you have free will. In the other you do so because neurological activity forces you to and you have no real choice.

Regular0ldguy said:
Rebel. Make no choices today. Show that nasty old causal chain who is boss. Treat it with the disrespect it deserves for pushing you around so much.
Click to expand...

That is silly. When you hear the argument that you have no free will, that effects you. It causes activity in you brain, as it gets processed. In your case the outcome of that processing is the thought/result "rebel" or "do something crazy and unexpected". That thought was *caused* by hearing and processing the "no free will" argument. That argument allows for the possibility that hearing the argument will, by itself, change your behavior, because the "program" in you brain forced you to change that behavior in response to the new stimulus. It's okay though, the argument continues, because the "program" made you rebel or behave unusually, you had no choice.
 
Regular0ldguy said:
Another fun anecdote you reminded me of. When I was a kid, I noticed when I was very young I was prone to panic and freezing to the point of inaction. I immediately recognized that losing voluntary control in cases of danger was itself extremely dangerous, not to mention embarrassing as hell. So being aware of that tendency, I worked on it until I had control over that little tendency and eliminated its influence. There after I became very cool "under fire" and became a leader. I saw the snake coming and I killed it (or replaced it with a different and more useful snake).
Click to expand...

I misunderstood what you were going for with the snake hypothetical.

Nothing wrong with what you describe, though the mechanism by which we learn to control such things is not necessarily through "choice" as much as it is through the training of repeated trials. Even those who reject the notion of free will agree that the brain is adaptive and that repeated stimulus can alter its programming in such a way that behaviors can be affected over time.

DARPA is looking into building a learning computer, which is a computer that can learn how to improve its own functions through the accumulation of new data (which would include new experiences and certain feedback mechanisms). That is certainly not to say that DARPA is looking to build a computer with free will.

https://pal.sri.com/Plone/framework

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2010/08/31/darpa-wants-to-build-a-learning-computer/

The DARPA video in the second link is especially interesting. You can see the (at this point hypothetical) computer program is choosing what information to show its operator based on prior inputs. (And already my TiVo chooses to record certain programs it believes I will want to watch.) I hope they can make it work to the extent they are envisioning.
 
Don't you guys remember Terminator 2? The day Skynet became "self aware". I really don't know whether we could ever make a computer do that (but I don't see why not). But an identity is created when you figure out you are a unique entity and recognize your wants and needs as important to you (which is much more thatn just blindly following rules and algorithms) and that your future might be better or worse, more or less enjoyable, etc. and that you can move things around to improve your situation and make yourself happier or more fulfilled. And the next level is empathy for those you love, and controlling circumstances for their benefit too. That really isn't a clock. And if you say it is a clock having a dream/illusion, then by that fact alone, it isn't a clockwork mechanism. Dreaming/illusions and the type of perception of self and others I'm talking about isn't simply a complex clock. Sure it is a mechanism of sorts. And maybe even a mechanism that we can create down the road some time, but that self-awareness thing, that is what allows a will rather than just rule following.
 
When I question whether your actions "make no difference" I don't mean have no consequences at all. I mean "make no difference to you" or "don't concern you" or "don't have an emotional effect on you that motivates you to search for a better path."

The fact that you care what happens, and take action to steer the future means first, you have a will, and second, if you get to do what you want, then your will is free. Mere causation doesn't limit your freedom in any meaningful sense. There are free causes of actions as well as unfree/compelled causes for some actions, and a whole continuum of gradations in between.

I hope I'm making you feel better.
 
Saying that I react to the events of the day and the influences upon me doesn't automatically and completely remove the possibility of any free act. Again, free means unfettered by force, duress, compulsion, psychosis, delusion, etc., but not uncaused. I can have some of my actions caused by whim, folly, deliberation, concentration, my concern for self improvement, or self indulgence. If I get to do WHAT I WANT and WHAT I CHOOSE, I am exercising my will, and without hindrance, so it is a free choice so a free will as to that type of decision. Of course I can be influence, and even compelled on many occasions, but calling all acts either free or unfree is a misuse of those concepts describing different decision making processes.
 
RegularOldguy said:
Again, free means unfettered by force, duress, compulsion, psychosis, delusion, etc.
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Does it? Isn't that just your convenient definition, so then you can put forward an argument that uses the definition?

Why would your definition of "free" be universally true?
If I get to do WHAT I WANT and WHAT I CHOOSE, I am exercising my will, and without hindrance, so it is a free choice so a free will as to that type of decision.
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You're just going around in circles. If you are free to "do what you want", then do you get to do what you want? Does circumstance get in the way, sometimes?

All your argument amounts to is: "If I have free will then I get to exercise it".
So do you really have it, or do you have a brain that perceives it is free to "think" independently? Do you, or does anyone, really have the ability to think independently? Of what?
Is it of everyone else's thoughts? Does that include every idea that has ever been recorded, or passed down through generations? I don't think that would work out very well.


Plus, I would hazard that you've never studied philosophy?
 
Pandaemoni said:
Whether one believes in free will or not, it makes sense to continue one's life. In one case you do so because you feel you have free will. In the other you do so because neurological activity forces you to and you have no real choice.
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so zombies are real?

i know i can walk off a cliff anytime i want
play russian roulette
and whatnot

i had thought all other sapiens were like me
having similar degrees of freedom
i know differently now
thanks

/superior smirk
 
arfa brane said:
Plus, I would hazard that you've never studied philosophy?
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i am not sure i follow
lets say neither rog or i did not (in my case, true)

what would be the recommended reading with regards to this particular topic?

/eager

Sarkus said:
I would say it is more that because we (our consciousness) lack the necessary knowledge of the causes that our consciousness compels us to consider a choice/decision as more than illusory.
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interesting
could you present a few scenarios?
 
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Gustav said:
what would be the recommended reading with regards to this particular topic?
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I have no idea.
But I believe I can demonstrate my own concept of freedom of action, by responding to your question with: ...

Get it?

Oh hell, ok. Try googling "free will and consciousness", or something.
 
Gustav said:
interesting
could you present a few scenarios?
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Pick a number between 1 and 10.
Why did you choose it?

At a conscious level you might say: "5 - because it was the first number in my head".

At an unconscious macro level it might be that the last number you actually saw (not that your consciousness remembers) was a 5 and so you selected that as it was fresh in your processing. You don't know this - to your consciousness it was a "free" choice.

At an unconscious micro level it might be that certain neurons fired at certain times that cascaded through your neural network and resulted inexorably in your consciousness "choosing" 5.
But your "consciousness" basically clouds the lack of knowledge it has of the micro interactions, or even of most of the macro-level interactions / causes.
And to cover up that lack of knowledge it goes: "5 was the result because I chose!"

Or something like that.
 
arfa brane said:
Does it? Isn't that just your convenient definition, so then you can put forward an argument that uses the definition?

Why would your definition of "free" be universally true?
You're just going around in circles. If you are free to "do what you want", then do you get to do what you want? Does circumstance get in the way, sometimes?

All your argument amounts to is: "If I have free will then I get to exercise it".
Click to expand...

Really? Can't speak English any more? That's a fool's errand. Go to any dictionary.

World English Dictionary
free (friː)

— adj (and foll by from ) , freer , freest
1. able to act at will; not under compulsion or restraint
2. a. having personal rights or liberty; not enslaved or confined
b. ( as noun ): land of the free
3. not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain
4. (of a country, etc) autonomous or independent
5. exempt from external direction or restriction; not forced or induced: free will
 
river said:
free-will is about awarness , perspective and dwelling upon and then change in thought and/or action
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I'd agree.

In fact, in some Eastern philosophies, they maintain that the only time a human has free will and is able to act on it is in relation to God; while in the mundane scenarios of decision-making (picking clothes, numbers, foods, etc.) it is not actually free will that is being employed, but a less or more complex predetermination.
For mundane scenarios, those Easterners would possibly agree with Sarkus.
 
i originally phrased my question to you like so....

"interesting
could you present a few scenarios?
perhaps ones that do not involve the village idiot as the test subject"

;)

i do acknowledge that bias is a possible factor in picking a number off the scale.
it could be as you said, a numeral actually visualized, perhaps heard; recently. it could be a favored numeral due to any number of reasons. it could also be..... an actual, random pick.

i see no logical reason to discount that last possibility

speaking of "unconscious micro level", are you postulating a neural correlate to the number 5? an instinctual, perhaps inherited, preference for particular numbers? a predisposition for picking one over the other?

anyways, i would say i am mostly confident, to a very high percentage, that my choice of number was not influenced by biases, biological or otherwise

the possibility however remains
as does the matrix
or the unfolding of god's immutable plan
 
Regular0ldguy said:
Only until he changed definitions on them.
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:shrug:
I have not changed any definition.
I am happy to work with whatever definition you give, and have done throughout.
I have certainly offered a definition that I see fits a "free-will" that exists.
The fact that you do not see how your definition is merely a conscious perception of activity, and does not speak of the underlying nature of that activity, is your weakness.

But I have not changed any definition.
Perhaps if you could support your accusation, as well as your arguments in general, you might become more tolerable. :shrug:
 
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