Why do we argue?

[SkippingStones]

"They will never see the way you do, so why argue?" -- I heard this thought expressed the other day and wondered about it.

I ask you, why do you argue about religion? What are you trying to achieve? Does it make you happy? Do you think you can 'win'? Do you 'win'? Are you helping other people? Is it making the world a better place? Is it fun?

 

[Sirius83]

For me, personally...it's fun. I enjoy sharing my thoughts on issues and hearing what others have to say. Sometimes, they may make sense, and make me rethink my position. Other times, they may bring up points I did now know before, and it expands my knowledge. It's not so much trying to change other peoeples views than it is enjoying the discussion/debate and learning new things.

 

[Lemming3k]

I ask you, why do you argue about religion?

Its not an arguement its a discussion.

What are you trying to achieve?

Personally i wish people to use their brains more, even if it only leads to the same conclusion it is better to think about something than to merely believe it, and i wish people to live life to the full. Also i want to learn and analyse almost everything especially to do with human psychology.

Does it make you happy?

Im happy regardless, if i wasnt happy with my life and how i live im in no position to argue in favour of it.

Do you think you can 'win'? Do you 'win'?

Its not about winning and losing, its about enjoying what you have now as it may be all you ever get.

Are you helping other people?

I try but i never force them to give anything up, religions a comfort to a lot of people and nobody has a right to take that away from them, mostly it helps me understand things better though.

Is it making the world a better place?

No because you never get through to the fundies and they are the ones that cause the problems.

Is it fun?

It can be, some arguements make me laugh.

 

[Godless]

"They will never see the way you do, so why argue?"

Because theists in the past imposed by "force" their doctrine on civilizations.

I heard this thought expressed the other day and wondered about it.

See above!.

I ask you, why do you argue about religion?

Because we are finally FREE to do so!. And this will hopefully further the seperation between church & state.

Does it make you happy?

Would it make you happy, to have others FORCE their idealogical nonsense bullshiet upon you?! would it make you happy for the church to run the state, specifically the reason why people came on board of Mayflower?. To escape religious prosecutions.

Do you think you can 'win'?

Oviously we have seperation of church & state!

Do you 'win'?

see above.

Are you helping other people?

Not all atheists are born into an atheist family, so eventually someone opened up REASON on their brains and they left wishes, whims, fantacy, out of their way to explain reality and existence on their own faculty of logic.

Is it making the world a better place?

If it were not for those brave people of the Reinessanse to contradict the church, to finally condemn religious prosecutions, to bring to light the atrocities of human suffering done by the church, to finally step out of the "dark ages" and into the age of REASON! Just think were would we be today, if these things have not come to pass?. The world would still be in the middle ages, advancement in science and medicine would have been determined "evil works of the devil" oh!! the tragedy of human suffering, and complete massacres around the world would be staggering. It would be horrible to live under a doctrine that teaches nothing but non-sense, and doomed at the whims of church leaders.

Is it fun?

No!! it's actually hard work, to keep religioous dogma from government. Look at some of the laws these theists Assholes have been able to implement by force to our supposedly seperated church & state government. Must I give examples. Ok! just one. Prostitution is elegal. Abortion was elegal, however women rights group fought this one with tooth and nail. And now these theists Assholes are trying to go back on RoeVsWade. to make it elegal again.

learn more of seperation of church & state

Godless.

 

[Godless]

The argument is not new, here's a quote from Thomas Paine:

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this? (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Paul Blanshard, ed., Classics of Free Thought, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1977, pp. 134-135.)

Godless.

 

[water]

"They will never see the way you do, so why argue?" -- I heard this thought expressed the other day and wondered about it.

I ask you, why do you argue about religion? What are you trying to achieve?

I am not a religionist, but I wish to make aware that there are several discourses going on when arguing about things -- and that these discourses may be mutually exclusive. This is esp. painful when it comes to religion.

Also, it often happens that an argument or a debate about an issue turns into criticizing and fighting for reasons that are extraneous to the issue itself.

We like to think of informal logic as the tool for making sound arguments; however, a certain knowledge in other important tools, such like the theory of meaning and discourse are just as important.

Instead of arguing about, say, the proof for the existence of God, one ends up arguing about the atomistic vs. holistic theory of meaning.

What are you trying to achieve?

It seems innate to humans that we are trying to persuade others of our views -- most likely because we see some benefits for us in others thinking the way we do.

Does it make you happy?

We all like to give in to the pleasures of debate. I suppose it comes from not having to fight much IRL.

Do you think you can 'win'?

I don't go in for a fight. I am trying to cooperate, I see a thread as a project, a whole where each poster is trying to add something for the benefit of the whole.

Although, as I've been noticing, being cooperative is not the default setting for humans.

Do you 'win'?

Like I said: I am not taking it as a fight or competition, therefore, there are no winners or losers for me. I see debating as a creative challenge.

Are you helping other people? Is it making the world a better place?

That's just the thing: To really help people, to make the world a better place, one must first be an expert in his field. For it is only then that someone can really help with a certain problem.

Also, just as important, I think we should not "try to help" just like that. Help is meaningful and efficient only if the person who needs it comes to seek it. I think it is wrong and preposterous to appoint oneself as "helper" and then look for trouble to end it, imposing one's help.

Is it fun?

My, those 3 pounds or so in my head are awfully pleased when set in motion.

 

[SkippingStones]

Although, as I've been noticing, being cooperative is not the default setting for humans.

That's just the thing: To really help people, to make the world a better place, one must first be an expert in his field. For it is only then that someone can really help with a certain problem.

Depending on what you mean by 'expert', I don't think this is always true. It is ALWAYS possible to help people, to varying degrees. Of course, to teach a farmer to irrigate his fields, you must know a good bit about irrigation, but for matters of the mind it is different. The only person who can truely help a mind is the mind itself.

Too often we think that we can breach the communal/personal gulf between each other with our words.

 

[water]

Depending on what you mean by 'expert', I don't think this is always true. It is ALWAYS possible to help people, to varying degrees. Of course, to teach a farmer to irrigate his fields, you must know a good bit about irrigation, but for matters of the mind it is different. The only person who can truely help a mind is the mind itself.

Too often we think that we can breach the communal/personal gulf between each other with our words.

Yes, for the matters of the mind it may be different -- but teaching a farmer to irrigate or tutoring a student is done by *their* request, and they know what to expect.

Different with the matters of the mind. There, the expectations are often unrealistic, not defined, even indefinable. Therefore, they should be approached with the greatest possible humility.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

"They will never see the way you do, so why argue?" -- I heard this thought expressed the other day and wondered about it.

I ask you, why do you argue about religion? What are you trying to achieve? Does it make you happy? Do you think you can 'win'? Do you 'win'? Are you helping other people? Is it making the world a better place? Is it fun?

That's a very good question and it has many valid answers. I would assert
that the most common one is that "People disagree and care about the
disagreement".