I've always wondered why people ask God for things when they pray. I can understand the point of praying to thank God for things, develop a closer relationship with him, etc. But asking God for something implies that we can convince God to do something that he otherwise wouldn't. This seems absurd. I can't imagine God saying to himself, 'Well, I was going to let this person die, but since his family prayed for him to survive, I guess I won't.' If God is infinite and perfect, then it seems that we would have exactly zero chance of influencing his actions.
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Why ask for things in prayer?
- Thread starter Nasor
- Start date
Originally posted by Nasor
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I've always wondered why people ask God for things when they pray. I can understand the point of praying to thank God for things, develop a closer relationship with him, etc. But asking God for something implies that we can convince God to do something that he otherwise wouldn't. This seems absurd. I can't imagine God saying to himself, 'Well, I was going to let this person die, but since his family prayed for him to survive, I guess I won't.' If God is infinite and perfect, then it seems that we would have exactly zero chance of influencing his actions.
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(Good point, Nasor. I liken praying to creative visualization. Everything comes from within. Thoughts create things. Call it wishful thinking. The conscious mind may want a new bicycle, but the subconscious mind says "but I live close to the freeway, and there's nowhere to ride safely." Of course, you're not really aware of what you subconscious is telling you. Praying goes within to where God really resides. When others pray for you, say if you're sick, you know you have this family/friend emotional/spiritual support, but it is ultimately up to your eternal spirit to make the decision if you your time is up or not. It's not some God "out there," it's the One Spirit of God in YOU!)
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I've always wondered why people ask God for things when they pray. I can understand the point of praying to thank God for things, develop a closer relationship with him, etc. But asking God for something implies that we can convince God to do something that he otherwise wouldn't. This seems absurd. I can't imagine God saying to himself, 'Well, I was going to let this person die, but since his family prayed for him to survive, I guess I won't.' If God is infinite and perfect, then it seems that we would have exactly zero chance of influencing his actions.
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(Good point, Nasor. I liken praying to creative visualization. Everything comes from within. Thoughts create things. Call it wishful thinking. The conscious mind may want a new bicycle, but the subconscious mind says "but I live close to the freeway, and there's nowhere to ride safely." Of course, you're not really aware of what you subconscious is telling you. Praying goes within to where God really resides. When others pray for you, say if you're sick, you know you have this family/friend emotional/spiritual support, but it is ultimately up to your eternal spirit to make the decision if you your time is up or not. It's not some God "out there," it's the One Spirit of God in YOU!)
Through God's Love and Grace, we have freedom. So we can 'ask and we'll get'. Man's relationship with God is a partnership with one holding a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch bigger share.Originally posted by Nasor
This seems absurd. I can't imagine God saying to himself, 'Well, I was going to let this person die, but since his family prayed for him to survive, I guess I won't.' If God is infinite and perfect, then it seems that we would have exactly zero chance of influencing his actions.
Re: Re: Why ask for things in prayer?
Originally posted by MarcAC
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Through God's Love and Grace, we have freedom. So we can 'ask and we'll get'. Man's relationship with God is a partnership with one holding a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch bigger share.
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(Man's relationship with God goes no further than man's own desires within himself and what is good for him. It's nothing more than positive-thinking which is a powerful thing. You can call this praying to God if you wish, but that's all there is.)
Originally posted by MarcAC
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Through God's Love and Grace, we have freedom. So we can 'ask and we'll get'. Man's relationship with God is a partnership with one holding a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch bigger share.
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(Man's relationship with God goes no further than man's own desires within himself and what is good for him. It's nothing more than positive-thinking which is a powerful thing. You can call this praying to God if you wish, but that's all there is.)
Re: Re: Why ask for things in prayer?
Again, this implies that we can influence God to do something that he wouldn't have done otherwise. Since a perfect god would presumably always know (and take) the best course of action in any situation, I don't see how there could be room for human input.Originally posted by MarcAC
Through God's Love and Grace, we have freedom. So we can 'ask and we'll get'. Man's relationship with God is a partnership with one holding a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch bigger share.
You are limited by your concept of "best", as if there is only one "optimal" path. There are a lot more variables inbetween that might be exercised without affecting the end result. God does not predict everybody's actions and needs out of habit, it is an act of will. He can be active everywhere, but He isn't. One of the consequences of our separation from God was also the separation of our "destinies" from God's plan. Without God we are at the mercy of the natural forces of the universe. It is only in a relationship with God that you place yourself under His care, and can ask Him questions and love Him like a father. Because He cares for us, He wants us to pray. He lets our prayers have an influence, but never to tempt or manipulate Him.posted by Nasor
Again, this implies that we can influence God to do something that he wouldn't have done otherwise. Since a perfect god would presumably always know (and take) the best course of action in any situation, I don't see how there could be room for human input.
A prayer includes your needs and your presence in God's will. It places you in His hands, not Him in your hands. Any prayer is a form of "offering", where you recognize God's authority. It's also a dialogue where you can negotiate and talk to God. After all, that is one of the benefits of a relationship. But what you pray reflects who you are, and that is what God responds to. What you ask for when you believe in God will be different than what you ask for if you don't.
Well, not necessarily, for me. How are you so sure? I doubt you are, so it remains an open question.Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
(Man's relationship with God goes no further than man's own desires within himself and what is good for him. It's nothing more than positive-thinking which is a powerful thing. You can call this praying to God if you wish, but that's all there is.)
Very well illustrated Jenyar.
Originally posted by Jenyar
A prayer includes your needs and your presence in God's will. It places you in His hands, not Him in your hands. Any prayer is a form of "offering", where you recognize God's authority.
Beautifully said and if I could change one word, I would substitute the word offering with the word submission, because when you place yourself in another hand, you're not in the business of offering them a service, but more of submitting yourself to their will.
Submission to God
Originally posted by Flores
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Beautifully said and if I could change one word, I would substitute the word offering with the word submission, because when you place yourself in another hand, you're not in the business of offering them a service, but more of submitting yourself to their will.
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(Hey, Flo, Sister-in-God, good to hear from you again! I've noticed throughout the forum that Muslims use the term "submission" to God frequently. Well, it just now hit me that "submission" to God/Allah is absolutely the MOST important thing a believer can do. We must submit to God. Saying we believe in God but NOT submitting to God/Allah makes one a liar. I would venture so far as to say a "dead liar." When we submit to God/Allah, we are doing God's will. We are putting OUR will behind us and focusing on God's will for us! How easy life would be if we all submitted to God! Even for those atheists who don't believe in God, I would say that submitting to their higher consciousness (which I believe is God) would make sense, too. Personally, I don't think there is any way to get around this. If we're not in the business of submitting to our most innermost soul (God), then we are simply living a lie. I would presume this is where other 'addictions' come in like alcohol, gambling, material things, because these 'addictions' fill the void where God (our soul) should be. Thanks for pointing out "submission." It gives me a whole new perspective on what I already believed, but it makes sense!
Originally posted by Flores
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Beautifully said and if I could change one word, I would substitute the word offering with the word submission, because when you place yourself in another hand, you're not in the business of offering them a service, but more of submitting yourself to their will.
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(Hey, Flo, Sister-in-God, good to hear from you again! I've noticed throughout the forum that Muslims use the term "submission" to God frequently. Well, it just now hit me that "submission" to God/Allah is absolutely the MOST important thing a believer can do. We must submit to God. Saying we believe in God but NOT submitting to God/Allah makes one a liar. I would venture so far as to say a "dead liar." When we submit to God/Allah, we are doing God's will. We are putting OUR will behind us and focusing on God's will for us! How easy life would be if we all submitted to God! Even for those atheists who don't believe in God, I would say that submitting to their higher consciousness (which I believe is God) would make sense, too. Personally, I don't think there is any way to get around this. If we're not in the business of submitting to our most innermost soul (God), then we are simply living a lie. I would presume this is where other 'addictions' come in like alcohol, gambling, material things, because these 'addictions' fill the void where God (our soul) should be. Thanks for pointing out "submission." It gives me a whole new perspective on what I already believed, but it makes sense!
what about confirmation on what we want?
Originally posted by MarcAC
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Well, not necessarily, for me. How are you so sure? I doubt you are, so it remains an open question.
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(This is what I believe. We're each entitled to our own beliefs, for that is where and how we come to know God. I don't see my Creator as being an unidentified object out there in the heavens. I see my Creator as my innermost self, my Soul. But, I also believe that there is only One Spirit of God which I share with the rest of the human race. That makes us one body and one spirit. I'm definitely not a Xian, but wasn't this what Jesus was trying to teach? The kingdom of God is within?
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Well, not necessarily, for me. How are you so sure? I doubt you are, so it remains an open question.
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(This is what I believe. We're each entitled to our own beliefs, for that is where and how we come to know God. I don't see my Creator as being an unidentified object out there in the heavens. I see my Creator as my innermost self, my Soul. But, I also believe that there is only One Spirit of God which I share with the rest of the human race. That makes us one body and one spirit. I'm definitely not a Xian, but wasn't this what Jesus was trying to teach? The kingdom of God is within?
Islam 101....means akunamatata
Hey MW......I don't know how you do it, but you read my mind.
To me Islam or submission is the equivalent of Akunamatata.
It means if you submit now, no worries for your souls for the rest of your life....total akunamatata or heaven.
If you don't submit now, your soul will return back to the one and will submit itself againest your will and smelling one of pumba's farts would be on your wish list over the big mess that you have placed your own self in....that's the opposite of akunamatata or what religion calls hell.
Submission could be by own will during this life or againest own will when our will is finally lost and the soul have no option but to return to its originator...It's not an offering or a gift giving, which only happens by own will....it's the eminent. THE SOUL MUST SUBMIT BACK TO THE ONE IT CAME FROM.
A muslim knows that after death, their souls that have a free will now, will eventually loose the body, the will, and attach back or submit to the higher will of god....
So at the end we are in a state of submission to a higher one, whether we like it or not...Of course if we like the submission, we are automatically happy and in total bliss...akunamatata, and if we are submitting againest our will, we are automatically in tormoil...
..So why are we fighting ourselves in this world by resisting the eminent submission??? That's the real question to all believers.
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
(Hey, Flo, Sister-in-God, good to hear from you again! I've noticed throughout the forum that Muslims use the term "submission" to God frequently.
Hey MW......I don't know how you do it, but you read my mind.
To me Islam or submission is the equivalent of Akunamatata.
It means if you submit now, no worries for your souls for the rest of your life....total akunamatata or heaven.
If you don't submit now, your soul will return back to the one and will submit itself againest your will and smelling one of pumba's farts would be on your wish list over the big mess that you have placed your own self in....that's the opposite of akunamatata or what religion calls hell.
Submission could be by own will during this life or againest own will when our will is finally lost and the soul have no option but to return to its originator...It's not an offering or a gift giving, which only happens by own will....it's the eminent. THE SOUL MUST SUBMIT BACK TO THE ONE IT CAME FROM.
A muslim knows that after death, their souls that have a free will now, will eventually loose the body, the will, and attach back or submit to the higher will of god....
So at the end we are in a state of submission to a higher one, whether we like it or not...Of course if we like the submission, we are automatically happy and in total bliss...akunamatata, and if we are submitting againest our will, we are automatically in tormoil...
..So why are we fighting ourselves in this world by resisting the eminent submission??? That's the real question to all believers.
More likely you will get confirmation on what God wants, and it's up to you if you agree or not. We aren't bound to God's will, but it makes sense to listen to Him (to put it mildly).Originally posted by curioucity
what about confirmation on what we want?
If you keep in mind that God provided your life for you, and sustains you, everything else is equally a gift from God. God decides whether your request will strengthen His kingdom or weaken it, and his first priority is always relationships. Winning the lottery might solve a lot of problems in your life, but think about what that says on your dependence on money. God does not run a lottery or a casino; their influence in your life might easily exceed His, and your prayers will be aimed more towards Lady Luck than God.
Mark says: "whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." That means you live a life that is already blessed by God, and you will realize that whatever you still lack will be provided, and whatever you have is for God's purpose. That enables you to give from what little you have - even if it is just love. And in that selflessness, you are storing up a treasure in heaven that cannot be stolen or lost.
PS. I watched Bruce Almighty this weekend, and I must say I was surprised - the message is quite "sober". It has a good perspective on prayer, although of course much simplified... but there was one line where "God" asked: "since when do people know what they want?"
Re: Islam 101....means akunamatata
Originally posted by Flores
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Hey MW......I don't know how you do it, but you read my mind.
To me Islam or submission is the equivalent of Akunamatata.
It means if you submit now, no worries for your souls for the rest of your life....total akunamatata or heaven.
If you don't submit now, your soul will return back to the one and will submit itself againest your will and smelling one of pumba's farts would be on your wish list over the big mess that you have placed your own self in....that's the opposite of akunamatata or what religion calls hell.
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(This is what I've been saying, too. It surely makes sense to me!)
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Submission could be by own will during this life or againest own will when our will is finally lost and the soul have no option but to return to its originator...It's not an offering or a gift giving, which only happens by own will....it's the eminent. THE SOUL MUST SUBMIT BACK TO THE ONE IT CAME FROM.
----------
(Ah, yes, submission is sublime!)
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A muslim knows that after death, their souls that have a free will now, will eventually loose the body, the will, and attach back or submit to the higher will of god....
So at the end we are in a state of submission to a higher one, whether we like it or not...Of course if we like the submission, we are automatically happy and in total bliss...akunamatata, and if we are submitting againest our will, we are automatically in tormoil...
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(So true!)
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..So why are we fighting ourselves in this world by resisting the eminent submission??? That's the real question to all believers.
----------
(Submit, submit, submit! That's the only reason we're here!)
Originally posted by Flores
----------
Hey MW......I don't know how you do it, but you read my mind.
To me Islam or submission is the equivalent of Akunamatata.
It means if you submit now, no worries for your souls for the rest of your life....total akunamatata or heaven.
If you don't submit now, your soul will return back to the one and will submit itself againest your will and smelling one of pumba's farts would be on your wish list over the big mess that you have placed your own self in....that's the opposite of akunamatata or what religion calls hell.
----------
(This is what I've been saying, too. It surely makes sense to me!)
----------
Submission could be by own will during this life or againest own will when our will is finally lost and the soul have no option but to return to its originator...It's not an offering or a gift giving, which only happens by own will....it's the eminent. THE SOUL MUST SUBMIT BACK TO THE ONE IT CAME FROM.
----------
(Ah, yes, submission is sublime!)
----------
A muslim knows that after death, their souls that have a free will now, will eventually loose the body, the will, and attach back or submit to the higher will of god....
So at the end we are in a state of submission to a higher one, whether we like it or not...Of course if we like the submission, we are automatically happy and in total bliss...akunamatata, and if we are submitting againest our will, we are automatically in tormoil...
----------
(So true!)
----------
..So why are we fighting ourselves in this world by resisting the eminent submission??? That's the real question to all believers.
----------
(Submit, submit, submit! That's the only reason we're here!)
Medicine Woman,
I've been reading your conversation with Flores (which I have been enjoying) and am trying to understand why submission would be the only reason we are here. Could it be possible that our priority would be to learn and experience in order to progress spiritually?
I've been reading your conversation with Flores (which I have been enjoying) and am trying to understand why submission would be the only reason we are here. Could it be possible that our priority would be to learn and experience in order to progress spiritually?
Submission
Originally posted by heart
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Medicine Woman, I've been reading your conversation with Flores (which I have been enjoying) and am trying to understand why submission would be the only reason we are here. Could it be possible that our priority would be to learn and experience in order to progress spiritually?
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(When I read Flores' post, a light bulb went on when I read "submission to God." It's really a matter of symantics, I suppose. To me, "submission to God" means allowing the Spirit of God (our creator/creative spirit) lead us along the way in our lifetime as opposed to our own free will leading us. Our spirit (Spirit of God) knows what's best for us and how and where we will learn and experience the most to progress spiritually. Our human free will tends to lead us along the easiest path which may not be the path we need to be on. I also use the term "submission" in a spiritual sense and not in submitting to any man-made religion. When we are on the right path, we are being led because of our "submission." When we are on the wrong path, we are not "submitting" to our innermost soul, we are dragging our innermost soul around with us. This is usually fatal. We are nothing without the One Spirit of God driving us! Our bodies are like cars. Gasoline is the One Spirit of God. These vehicles can run on many things like pride, envy, greed, etc., but they don't get you to where your spirit needs to go. That is what I meant by "submission." Human "submission" to the Spirit.)
Originally posted by heart
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Medicine Woman, I've been reading your conversation with Flores (which I have been enjoying) and am trying to understand why submission would be the only reason we are here. Could it be possible that our priority would be to learn and experience in order to progress spiritually?
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(When I read Flores' post, a light bulb went on when I read "submission to God." It's really a matter of symantics, I suppose. To me, "submission to God" means allowing the Spirit of God (our creator/creative spirit) lead us along the way in our lifetime as opposed to our own free will leading us. Our spirit (Spirit of God) knows what's best for us and how and where we will learn and experience the most to progress spiritually. Our human free will tends to lead us along the easiest path which may not be the path we need to be on. I also use the term "submission" in a spiritual sense and not in submitting to any man-made religion. When we are on the right path, we are being led because of our "submission." When we are on the wrong path, we are not "submitting" to our innermost soul, we are dragging our innermost soul around with us. This is usually fatal. We are nothing without the One Spirit of God driving us! Our bodies are like cars. Gasoline is the One Spirit of God. These vehicles can run on many things like pride, envy, greed, etc., but they don't get you to where your spirit needs to go. That is what I meant by "submission." Human "submission" to the Spirit.)
Medicine Woman,
Thank you for the reply and clarification.
Definite food for thought. I really like the way you phrased the above.
Thank you for the reply and clarification.
When we are on the right path, we are being led because of our "submission." When we are on the wrong path, we are not "submitting" to our innermost soul, we are dragging our innermost soul around with us. This is usually fatal. We are nothing without the One Spirit of God driving us! Our bodies are like cars. Gasoline is the One Spirit of God. These vehicles can run on many things like pride, envy, greed, etc., but they don't get you to where your spirit needs to go. That is what I meant by "submission." Human "submission" to the Spirit.)
Definite food for thought. I really like the way you phrased the above.