No; but communism is the end goal. Again, why do you keep defending capitalist exploitation? A compromise will not end exploitation.
Why are people against communism?
- Thread starter United for Communism
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No; but communism is the end goal. Again, why do you keep defending capitalist exploitation? A compromise will not end exploitation.
That bolded part is something that wholly confounds me. "They hope" indeed. Their "hope" seems to rest entirely upon an utterly irrational "faith," which is the sort which I feel ought rightly be called "insane."
Trying to wreck the schools? Unfortunately, I think we're already a little beyond that. I know quite a few people working in public schools, both throughout the U.S. and the rest of the world, and I feel that U.S. schools are ***almost*** wholly beyond repair. I have no idea what a possible solution would look like (and it's by no means simply a matter of funding, obviously), but I was always a fan of Ivan Illich's ideas. Of course, his ideas would largely depend upon a very different world from the one in which we live: radically decentralized "governments" and "states," the un-reification of capital, and that whole kit-and-kaboodle.
I'm not so idealistic, I think compromise can mitigate the worst effects of capitalism, and anyway, the whole endeavor of centrally organized government is about to end due to the limits of resources, particularly energy.
I think Zizek still believes in communism, he's just attempting a radical reformulation of it in response to pomo and poststructuralist critiques.
I'm not for centrally-planned government in regard to the day-to-day affairs of the community, anyway; that's why I'm for city-state type government within a larger international framework of communism.
At that level, things can be managed and controlled; and mitigating the worst effects of capitalism can only be done by abolishing it altogether.
At that level, things can be managed and controlled; and mitigating the worst effects of capitalism can only be done by abolishing it altogether.
Yes, me too. It's a good goal, but another violent revolution won't help anyone.
I'm actually kinda looking forward to Kunstler's "vision." Of course, apart from this whole internets thing, I already kind of live like that.
That's why I stress resistance and rebellion--and preferably non-violent. Although I do not consider property destruction (in certain instances) to be violent. I think Americans have come to forget that civil disobedience was long considered a brave and admirable form of protest against oppression and injustice.
Desert Travelers
You cannot elevate the form—e.g., communism—above its purpose.
Nor can we make the whole journey in one leap.
Analogously—and somewhat to the ridiculous side for its magnitude—we might look at those people who run two hundred mile footraces through deserts.
I'm in terrible shape. I found that thirty pounds I picked up when trying to quit smoking a few years ago actually precluded running as my primary exercise; my bones couldn't handle the extra weight on top of whatever decay years of poor diet and sedentary life inflicted.
These days, I'm getting back into shape. So here's the deal: I can't run a marathon. I should be able to run a mile soon enough, without the excruciating pain in my bones.
Still, though, from where I am, marathons are an incredibly difficult goal to achieve.
Yet, even if I trained myself to the point that I could run a marathon, I still couldn't run two hundred miles across the desert.
Neither do the runners who do. They run in stages. The race takes days, so they run in stages. The race isn't complete until you cross the finish line.
Still, though, compared to my inability to run a mile, if I could run a hundred eighty miles over the course of several days, sure, I won't have made the ultimate goal, but I will have come close. And the closer I am, the better shape I am in. Sure, it's not the whole thing, but I'm better off than I was.
Meanwhile, back to reality. I'll probably never run two hundred miles in the desert without an army chasing me. So I'm hoping to be able to run a five kilometer race in town next year. A little over three miles. I should be able to do it. And then I'll figure out what's next.
Analogously, our perspectives are going to change with each day, with each bit of progress. What we see from our current vantage will look different from a closer viewpoint. And perhaps our definition of the ultimate goal—communism—changes slightly.
The revolution cannot happen with blood flowing in the streets. We have the power of the ballot, and as we saw with the recent health care dispute, people are coming closer; they see the problem of having certain vital necessities in the private, capitalist sector where profits are the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong.
Solutions will emerge, but not as fast as we might hope. Eventually, people will see the possibility of having necessity attended to, and wealth an excess earned so that we're not all living in standardized shoeboxes and eating beet soup.
In that context, quality of life is as important as the equality promised by communism. In fact, it is an essential component.
And sometimes it does help to look at humanity as a collective singular: We are learning. Slowly. The battle of ideas advances or inhibits that learning, but we are most assuredly learning as we go.
We can't get there quickly, or in a single run. We can get there in stages, and reassessing each time where we've been and where exactly we think we're going.
United for Communism said:
You cannot elevate the form—e.g., communism—above its purpose.
Nor can we make the whole journey in one leap.
Analogously—and somewhat to the ridiculous side for its magnitude—we might look at those people who run two hundred mile footraces through deserts.
I'm in terrible shape. I found that thirty pounds I picked up when trying to quit smoking a few years ago actually precluded running as my primary exercise; my bones couldn't handle the extra weight on top of whatever decay years of poor diet and sedentary life inflicted.
These days, I'm getting back into shape. So here's the deal: I can't run a marathon. I should be able to run a mile soon enough, without the excruciating pain in my bones.
Still, though, from where I am, marathons are an incredibly difficult goal to achieve.
Yet, even if I trained myself to the point that I could run a marathon, I still couldn't run two hundred miles across the desert.
Neither do the runners who do. They run in stages. The race takes days, so they run in stages. The race isn't complete until you cross the finish line.
Still, though, compared to my inability to run a mile, if I could run a hundred eighty miles over the course of several days, sure, I won't have made the ultimate goal, but I will have come close. And the closer I am, the better shape I am in. Sure, it's not the whole thing, but I'm better off than I was.
Meanwhile, back to reality. I'll probably never run two hundred miles in the desert without an army chasing me. So I'm hoping to be able to run a five kilometer race in town next year. A little over three miles. I should be able to do it. And then I'll figure out what's next.
Analogously, our perspectives are going to change with each day, with each bit of progress. What we see from our current vantage will look different from a closer viewpoint. And perhaps our definition of the ultimate goal—communism—changes slightly.
The revolution cannot happen with blood flowing in the streets. We have the power of the ballot, and as we saw with the recent health care dispute, people are coming closer; they see the problem of having certain vital necessities in the private, capitalist sector where profits are the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong.
Solutions will emerge, but not as fast as we might hope. Eventually, people will see the possibility of having necessity attended to, and wealth an excess earned so that we're not all living in standardized shoeboxes and eating beet soup.
In that context, quality of life is as important as the equality promised by communism. In fact, it is an essential component.
And sometimes it does help to look at humanity as a collective singular: We are learning. Slowly. The battle of ideas advances or inhibits that learning, but we are most assuredly learning as we go.
We can't get there quickly, or in a single run. We can get there in stages, and reassessing each time where we've been and where exactly we think we're going.
That is a very good analogy, Tiassa, but again, what if on this run through the desert, we stop by an oasis and get lost there, never reaching the finish line? I fear we will forget about communism as we submerge ourselves in this modern bourgeoisie liberalism, and then in the wings, the capitalist class will remain, with their compromises, but remain nonetheless.
i absolutely cannot grasp the corollary posited. are you saying devolution would necessarily imply better management and utility of limited resources?
Not necessarily, but it could very well play out in such a manner by virtue of necessity.
To Stoop, or Not to Stoop?
I wouldn't disagree. I'm holding back to make a point.
Would it be a cheap out if I said, see the section above?
Okay, okay. Let's try a contrast:
From the right wing:
Now, let's try a few retorts, and see how reasonable they sound:
Really? Are we really going to go there? And, to a certain degree, isn't that what they want? These are folks who get upset that their racism is called racism. They behave like sufferers of some victimization syndrome. If the rest of society steps down to meet them in the gutter, what have we accomplished except stoop to the gutter?
Couched in this sort of middling consideration, it is possible to explore the questions in general. But to aim the point at someone? Say, Madanthonywayne, my colleague on the staff who asserts that the racists aren't really racist, they're just mad enough about [a fantasy version of] Obama's policies that they're willing to throw racist rhetoric at him. He's also the guy who thinks people who post racism should be spared the scrutiny of that racism because it is a personal attack.
Take a look around our community. Certain authority figures tried to back Buffalo Roam, to the point of trying to silence his critics. Do we really think we'll do anything useful by calling the Tea Party satanic, Nazi, retarded, and so on?
I mean, sure, that's what it looks like. But for the sake of discourse and progress therein, we can't accept that they're all a bunch of retarded, Satanic Nazis.
Which brings us back to the question of what exactly their problem is.
It can't be that they're all simply stupid or evil, can it? Such a concentration of idiotic cruelty, while mathematically inevitable according to some outlooks on the Universe, is generally rare, else humanity never would have made it this far.
____________________
Notes:
Murphy, Tim. "What to Expect From Rick Perry's Prayer Festival". Mother Jones. August 5, 2011. MotherJones.com. August 5, 2011. http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/08/what-expect-rick-perrys-prayer-festival-the-response
Parmalee said:
I wouldn't disagree. I'm holding back to make a point.
Would it be a cheap out if I said, see the section above?
Okay, okay. Let's try a contrast:
From the right wing:
• 9/11 was a punishment from God because Americans are immoral. (Rev. Doug Stringer)
• Homosexuality is a tragedy akin to 9/11. (Pastor Jim Garlow)
• Democrats are an "invisible network of evil". (Alice Patterson, Texas state coordinator for The Response prayer event)
• Gay people are hateful, vile tools of the enemy. (Tony Perkins, Family Research Council)
• Hurricane Katrina was God's vengeance on New Orleans for immorality. (Pastor John Hagee)
• Homosexuals are agents in a seemingly genocidal Illuminati plot that would kill six and a half billion people. Oh, and the Statue of Liberty is a demonic idol. (Pastor John Benefiel)
• Oprah Winfrey is the Harlot signaling the coming of the anti-Christ. (Mike Bickle, International House of Prayer)
• The Japanese earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear disaster is the work of an evil Sun Goddess. (C. Peter Wagner)
• Homosexuality is a tragedy akin to 9/11. (Pastor Jim Garlow)
• Democrats are an "invisible network of evil". (Alice Patterson, Texas state coordinator for The Response prayer event)
• Gay people are hateful, vile tools of the enemy. (Tony Perkins, Family Research Council)
• Hurricane Katrina was God's vengeance on New Orleans for immorality. (Pastor John Hagee)
• Homosexuals are agents in a seemingly genocidal Illuminati plot that would kill six and a half billion people. Oh, and the Statue of Liberty is a demonic idol. (Pastor John Benefiel)
• Oprah Winfrey is the Harlot signaling the coming of the anti-Christ. (Mike Bickle, International House of Prayer)
• The Japanese earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear disaster is the work of an evil Sun Goddess. (C. Peter Wagner)
Now, let's try a few retorts, and see how reasonable they sound:
• The Republican Party is the face of evil, demonstrably working toward iniquity.
• The Tea Party is a mix of willful agents of this evil, and the unfortunate ignorant who are unaware of the harm they cause and advocate.
• The economic meltdown of 2008 is God's revenge against the immorality of American capitalism.
• The Tea Party is a mix of willful agents of this evil, and the unfortunate ignorant who are unaware of the harm they cause and advocate.
• The economic meltdown of 2008 is God's revenge against the immorality of American capitalism.
Really? Are we really going to go there? And, to a certain degree, isn't that what they want? These are folks who get upset that their racism is called racism. They behave like sufferers of some victimization syndrome. If the rest of society steps down to meet them in the gutter, what have we accomplished except stoop to the gutter?
Couched in this sort of middling consideration, it is possible to explore the questions in general. But to aim the point at someone? Say, Madanthonywayne, my colleague on the staff who asserts that the racists aren't really racist, they're just mad enough about [a fantasy version of] Obama's policies that they're willing to throw racist rhetoric at him. He's also the guy who thinks people who post racism should be spared the scrutiny of that racism because it is a personal attack.
Take a look around our community. Certain authority figures tried to back Buffalo Roam, to the point of trying to silence his critics. Do we really think we'll do anything useful by calling the Tea Party satanic, Nazi, retarded, and so on?
I mean, sure, that's what it looks like. But for the sake of discourse and progress therein, we can't accept that they're all a bunch of retarded, Satanic Nazis.
Which brings us back to the question of what exactly their problem is.
It can't be that they're all simply stupid or evil, can it? Such a concentration of idiotic cruelty, while mathematically inevitable according to some outlooks on the Universe, is generally rare, else humanity never would have made it this far.
____________________
Notes:
Murphy, Tim. "What to Expect From Rick Perry's Prayer Festival". Mother Jones. August 5, 2011. MotherJones.com. August 5, 2011. http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/08/what-expect-rick-perrys-prayer-festival-the-response
Tiassa, I hate to be the outcast, but I don't support the Democratic Party either. They are also bought by corporate interests and do not promote true equality.
@ Tiassa:
Keeping my misanthropy (or anti-American sentiments) in check has been a lifelong struggle for me. It's not something that I'm especially ashamed of, and neither am I proud: it's just the way I am. Epilepsy (and the way many are wont to behave towards epileptics), autism, and having grown up in an abusive household probably have a whole lot to do with it; but regardless, the fact is that I simply understand, empathize with, and can communicate with (non-human) animals far better than I can with humans. And one area in which I am very much in disagreement with most leftists is the contention that Americans are mostly a very liberal minded and tolerant folk. Polls, voting patterns, and whatnots only reveal so much: my experiences have indicated very much otherwise.
I'm chronically peripatetic, be it traveling for music or just for the sake of traveling. Obviously, when I travel for music I visit mostly "cool" towns, and though my music is not overtly political, it tends to attract a certain "type" nonetheless.
But I've also logged well over 30 thousand miles (just within the U.S. alone) traveling by foot, by hitching, and by bicycle, and so I've visited an awful lot of not very "cool" towns. And--like I say, it's a real struggle--but sometimes... Well, I'm just not real sure as to how to describe the U.S. as anything other than a nation of retarded, Satanic Nazis.
Edit: and how 'bout the Tarahumara? Been there? Visited them? If not, you should make it an objective.
Keeping my misanthropy (or anti-American sentiments) in check has been a lifelong struggle for me. It's not something that I'm especially ashamed of, and neither am I proud: it's just the way I am. Epilepsy (and the way many are wont to behave towards epileptics), autism, and having grown up in an abusive household probably have a whole lot to do with it; but regardless, the fact is that I simply understand, empathize with, and can communicate with (non-human) animals far better than I can with humans. And one area in which I am very much in disagreement with most leftists is the contention that Americans are mostly a very liberal minded and tolerant folk. Polls, voting patterns, and whatnots only reveal so much: my experiences have indicated very much otherwise.
I'm chronically peripatetic, be it traveling for music or just for the sake of traveling. Obviously, when I travel for music I visit mostly "cool" towns, and though my music is not overtly political, it tends to attract a certain "type" nonetheless.
But I've also logged well over 30 thousand miles (just within the U.S. alone) traveling by foot, by hitching, and by bicycle, and so I've visited an awful lot of not very "cool" towns. And--like I say, it's a real struggle--but sometimes... Well, I'm just not real sure as to how to describe the U.S. as anything other than a nation of retarded, Satanic Nazis.
Edit: and how 'bout the Tarahumara? Been there? Visited them? If not, you should make it an objective.
I don't think too many here are all gung-ho about the Democrats, but as it stands: the Democrats all lie, but the Republicans' lies are far more insidious; the Democrats are all corporate shills, but the Republicans embrace corporatism as a religion; etc.
I don't think there will be a choice about it, lack of resources leads to reevaluation of the basic nature of all systems. In other words, modern society depends on huge inputs of energy, otherwise it starts to break down, leading to the default position of local control.
Yes that is paradigm. Decentralized by creating sustainable development. That is the new agenda . Has been for a while . Spidey's on the cutting edge of Ideology . " Portland " Yeah libvilli U.S.A. . They are at forefront of Smart growth ideologies that everybody loves so much . Even the Republicans believe in the new paradiam of Smart Growth that is to change human habitation for ever more ! That is the claim ! O.K. here is so buzz word for yeah all .
Neighbor your Neighbor
No more Garages
Little rail
Work were you live
Bike when you can
Walk when you can
My all time favorite is:
Bikes pay there far share for using the road
I forget how that one is reasoned out but it is and when see the math you will agree with it cause you believe in the agenda .
Spidey you seem to be the only one that sees . My Main Man dude . Me and you against the world . Not for long ! Soon as they hear the indoctrination from people they trust , then they will understand what you are saying . They will go " I think I heard that some were. Can't remember , but Yeah get the capitalist.
Not only that but smart growth will demand skill sets to survive there by providing purpose for the individual clanspeoples . That is why the people that move to Missoula from the inner cities all say the same thing . They say You got skills me you will be O.K. . Fuck to I will be dead more than likely when it comes about if it does . The Flaw is the money . Can't get it done with out the money . It is the obstacle of all obstacles. There is not enough . That could be why you are so on board with printing/ borrowing more . I know you think if we can get over the hump then it will start to work out , but we need the money to get it done .
Not going to happen . Do you think Obama likes making the money he makes . He might be willing to pay more in taxes but what would he think about going back to the wages of his early days before he knew success. The disparity between what we as a group consider a descent wage is huge .
You take a foot ball player ? What is the value of the contribution
Hell take Me new profession of music. I write Me a song and it goes platinum . Well that would hell of a contribution cause it would weasle around in your brain and change you for evermore , but I mean what physical contribution does provide . O.K. you got Me better well being cause your brain was changed for the better . O.K. music is not a good example
Painters lets take artist that paint . Just a piece of canvas with blobs of color . Where is the value in a practical sense .
Joking Spidey ! I know the value of a good story depicted on canvas . Dude your good . You should have showing if you don't . I know you can tell one hell of a story in the form of art . I look up to you that way